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Re: Measuring VLamax [Jerryc] [ In reply to ]
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Jerryc wrote:
Quote:
I was doing my apprenticeship under Thorpe's coach shortly before he and Pieter were duking it out


You may have seen this video. It was made 17 years ago, two years after the Sydney Olympics. It's a little theatrical since it was made for a video course at the local community college

http://bit.ly/1PeCJBx

Quote:
That may be a slight overstatement


I believe the athletes Jan has advised have won over 600 Olympic, World Championship and European Championship medials. Hard to top. Lot of relay swimmers but they are still medals.

--------------------------------

Yes, very theatrical.

The best measure of performance is performance itself. Power meters measure performance. Lactate measures have a relationship with performance, but like medal counts we are reminded: that correlation does not imply causation. Most of World Level performance comes down to choosing your parents well, having parents situated close to opportunities for performance and quality training.

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach
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Re: Measuring VLamax [Alan Couzens] [ In reply to ]
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Alan Couzens wrote:
Personally, I'm just happy to see a move away from the "FTP is everything" paradigm. Because, as you stated in that other post. There are more 'moving parts' to consider, especially wrt training, than solely looking at FTP.

Those who claim FTP is everything obviously don't camp out with the smart kids at the WKO4 Power Users group on Facebook.

But even 15 or so years ago, people using WKO where looking at way more than FTP with power profiling, quadrant analysis, and early fatigue profiling.

Now we have a modelled power duration curve, modelled FTP, time to exhaustion, fatigue resistance etc etc, that all comes from power data.

But yeah if you think a one off post race lactate beats 1-sec recording for a whole ride or every 3-5min in the lab or whenever is convenient to stop in the field then I wish you luck to understand the physiology when competing.

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach
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Re: Measuring VLamax [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
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mvenneta wrote:
For someone that knows absolutely nothing on this topic - can you explain what VLamax does or how I can use it?

Is it similar to me looking at my 15 sec, 1min, 5min and 20min power overtime?


In energy system terms, for all intents and purposes, total power production can be thought of as the composite of 2 systems - the aerobic and anaerobic.

VLamax quantifies the power of the anaerobic (glycolytic) system in producing energy in the same way that VO2max quantifies the power of the aerobic system. Because it is a *power* measurement it is expressed per unit of time, in mmol/L of lactate per second, just as VO2max is expressed in Liters per minute (or ml/kg/min)

Any effort is a composite/balance of these systems. You could have 2 athletes putting out the same power but generating that power in different ways. A good example would be the 1500m on the track. You have some '800m types' with very strong VLamax running just as strongly as '5000m types' coming down a distance with very high VO2max. Obviously, these types of athletes with different physiological strengths will (& should) train quite differently as they are 'getting the job done' in very different ways using a different balance of their energy systems.

This obviously applies strongly to a sport like road cycling where we have 'sprinter types', 'climbing types' and every type in between that must also strike just the right balance in the strength of each system for their specialty while still making it to the finish line!

However, it also applies in a reverse sort of way to a sport like triathlon. If we look at 70.3, for instance, we have some athletes with very high VO2max values coming up from Olympic Distance racing and doing well. We also have other athletes with lower VO2max coming down from Ironman distance racing and doing similarly well. These athletes are able to do so because of the 'weakness' of their VLamax, i.e. they don't use a lot of glycogen & are, therefore, able to maintain a very high % of their VO2max for a long period of time.

Knowing where your own strengths (& weaknesses) lie with respect to each of the systems can provide useful insight into where to direct the training - higher aerobic power or higher/lower glycolytic power

Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
Last edited by: Alan Couzens: May 11, 19 20:41
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Re: Measuring VLamax [Alan Couzens] [ In reply to ]
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Alan Couzens wrote:
Here's the article where Andy outlines the myriad of methods of 'estimating' FTP... https://www.trainingpeaks.com/...-is-threshold-power/

Funny thing is Andy wrote that article in 2003...

https://docs.google.com/...A4TdJwtPSKgdvxw/edit

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach
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Re: Measuring VLamax [Alan Couzens] [ In reply to ]
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Alan Couzens wrote:
so I instruct my athletes to buy their own portable lactate analyzer (& no I don't get any kickbacks).

Really, this works? I can somehow picture how this would work for lower intensity steps but once you get past 4mmol or so?

I assume this would mean taking the sample from your finger tips? You don't contaminate the samples with sweat easily?

I've often pondered getting a device but I'm not really sure if this really works when doing on your own.
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Re: Measuring VLamax [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
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mvenneta wrote:
For someone that knows absolutely nothing on this topic - can you explain what VLamax does or how I can use it?

Is it similar to me looking at my 15 sec, 1min, 5min and 20min power overtime?


Sebastian explains it here

https://www.velonews.com/...bastian-weber_493291
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Re: Measuring VLamax [sryke] [ In reply to ]
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sryke wrote:
Alan Couzens wrote:
so I instruct my athletes to buy their own portable lactate analyzer (& no I don't get any kickbacks).


Really, this works? I can somehow picture how this would work for lower intensity steps but once you get past 4mmol or so?

I assume this would mean taking the sample from your finger tips? You don't contaminate the samples with sweat easily?

I've often pondered getting a device but I'm not really sure if this really works when doing on your own.


It's certainly easier if you have a friend/significant other who can help out (makes the initial outlay cheaper too if you go in on a lactate tester with a training buddy or 2 and agree to test each other!)

But you can definitely do it on your own if you organize beforehand, especially if using aerobars for the test:
* Set up a table to the top right corner of the bike (assuming right-handed)
* Lay out alcohol swabs already opened
* Have test strips lined up at the ready
* Have a stack of gauze pads

For each stage - alcohol wipe -> spike finger -> gauze wipe -> sample

When sampling, hold the tester like a pencil i.e. with the strip pointing down into the blood droplet. Capillary action of the strip will suck the blood up.

Movement isn't usually too much of a problem, especially on the aerobars, until the effort gets close to maximal. At that point, a 2 second pause in pedaling to get the sample won't throw things off too much.

Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
Last edited by: Alan Couzens: May 12, 19 8:08
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Re: Measuring VLamax [Alan Couzens] [ In reply to ]
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Alan Couzens wrote:
sryke wrote:
Alan Couzens wrote:
so I instruct my athletes to buy their own portable lactate analyzer (& no I don't get any kickbacks).


Really, this works? I can somehow picture how this would work for lower intensity steps but once you get past 4mmol or so?

I assume this would mean taking the sample from your finger tips? You don't contaminate the samples with sweat easily?

I've often pondered getting a device but I'm not really sure if this really works when doing on your own.


It's certainly easier if you have a friend/significant other who can help out (makes the initial outlay cheaper too if you go in on a lactate tester with a training buddy or 2 and agree to test each other!)

But you can definitely do it on your own if you organize beforehand, especially if using aerobars for the test:
* Set up a table to the top right corner of the bike (assuming right-handed)
* Lay out alcohol swabs already opened
* Have test strips lined up at the ready
* Have a stack of gauze pads

For each stage - alcohol wipe -> spike finger -> gauze wipe -> sample

When sampling, hold the tester like a pencil i.e. with the strip pointing down into the blood droplet. Capillary action of the strip will suck the blood up.

Movement isn't usually too much of a problem, especially on the aerobars, until the effort gets close to maximal. At that point, a 2 second pause in pedaling to get the sample won't throw things off too much.


Are you using this to measure MLSS or VLamax ?
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Re: Measuring VLamax [Jerryc] [ In reply to ]
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Jerryc wrote:
Quote:
I was doing my apprenticeship under Thorpe's coach shortly before he and Pieter were duking it out


You may have seen this video. It was made 17 years ago, two years after the Sydney Olympics. It's a little theatrical since it was made for a video course at the local community college

http://bit.ly/1PeCJBx

--------------------------------

Thanks for sharing, Jerry. I hadn't seen that.

Brought back a lot of memories. We were doing a very similar type of test for the Aussie National Team when I was at the Australian Institute of Sport (at the risk of aging myself, :-) about 10 years before that video was made. At the end of most training blocks, swimmers would do a 7x200m progressive test with heart rate, stroke data & blood lactates at each stage. Much of the training prescription was very lactate focused & these were some of the most successful years of Australian swimming culminating in the Sydney Olympics. Would have been even more successful if not for PVH Smile

Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
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Re: Measuring VLamax [Kiwicoach] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
medal counts we are reminded: that correlation does not imply causation

But it is a lot of medals. Olbrecht after getting his PhD started working with local swim clubs in Belgium. One of the swimmers he worked with was Luc van Lierde who asked Jan if he could help him become a triathlete. About 10 years later he won Kona in 1996. Just before that success Jan approached a top Dutch swimming coach to see if he would be interested in trying his approach. Incredible success followed. In the last Olympics swimmers advised by Jan went gold and silver in the 100m free. He also advised the swimmer winning the open water 10,000m gold.

So is it correlation or causation? Or both? Those interested should examine the rationale behind the approach. Judge for yourself. The rationale is a theory that posits that the two energy systems are interrelated in the sense that changes in one will affect how much the other is used. For example, increasing aerobic capacity will lower glycolytic use and thus lower lactate produced. Lowering anaerobic capacity will lower glycolytic use and thus lower lactate produced. Both of these very different changes in metabolism will increase the threshold.



There are several links to Sebastian Weber on this thread that will help understand the rationale. Another good place is a long article we have on our website about the Lactate Threshold. The rationale is discussed there. http://bit.ly/2gHumG2

-----------

Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom
Last edited by: Jerryc: May 12, 19 15:31
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Re: Measuring VLamax [Jerryc] [ In reply to ]
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Spare me the marketing hype. Lactate testing, for cycling in particular, is so last millennium.

The best measure of performance is performance itself. Certainly not grabbing the odd lactate measure in the field or post race, or worse in a lab setting that has no relevance to performance in the field.

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach
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Re: Measuring VLamax [Kiwicoach] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Lactate testing, for cycling in particular, is so last millennium.

I wasn't aware the body has changed since the last millennium. You apparently do not understand what is being discussed. I suggest you try to understand the concepts being discussed before disparaging them. It has nothing to do with estimating some sort of threshold though that can be done very easily. It is much more complicated than that. It is trying to measure what causes a threshold or what is behind any measured number metabolically.

-----------------

Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom
Last edited by: Jerryc: May 12, 19 14:09
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Re: Measuring VLamax [Jerryc] [ In reply to ]
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Jerryc wrote:
Quote:
Lactate testing, for cycling in particular, is so last millennium.


I wasn't aware the body has changed since the last millennium. You apparently do not understand what is being discussed. I suggest you try to understand the concepts being discussed before disparaging them. It has nothing to do with estimating some sort of threshold though that can be done very easily. It is much more complicated than that. It is trying to measure what causes a threshold or what is behind any measured number metabolically.

-----------------

Yeah only doing a PhD in this stuff, but yeah, been involved in published papers, where I took thousands of blood samples to measure lactate, as well as other measures to increase our understanding of physiology. But yeah, tell that to yourself.

Not hard for people to visualise that there are different energy pathways. Mostly determined by genetics, but to varying degrees trainable. We can visualise this from actual performance using FRC FTP contribution in WKO4. Even a basic critical power model allows us to determine whether a rider has a strong aerobic system or anaerobic system.

Am sure someone will development a measure of lactate in real time offering the same 1-s we have from a power meter. But even then, like HR, HRV, NIRS it is all a response to exercise, not the stimulus that a power meter measures.

In cycling we can measure performance in racing and be far more specific with our understanding of performance. The best predictor of performance is performance itself. Not post race lactates, or mickey mouse tests in the field, or lab based tests that are a good predictor of performance in the lab.

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach
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Re: Measuring VLamax [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
Alan Couzens wrote:
sryke wrote:
Alan Couzens wrote:
so I instruct my athletes to buy their own portable lactate analyzer (& no I don't get any kickbacks).


Really, this works? I can somehow picture how this would work for lower intensity steps but once you get past 4mmol or so?

I assume this would mean taking the sample from your finger tips? You don't contaminate the samples with sweat easily?

I've often pondered getting a device but I'm not really sure if this really works when doing on your own.


It's certainly easier if you have a friend/significant other who can help out (makes the initial outlay cheaper too if you go in on a lactate tester with a training buddy or 2 and agree to test each other!)

But you can definitely do it on your own if you organize beforehand, especially if using aerobars for the test:
* Set up a table to the top right corner of the bike (assuming right-handed)
* Lay out alcohol swabs already opened
* Have test strips lined up at the ready
* Have a stack of gauze pads

For each stage - alcohol wipe -> spike finger -> gauze wipe -> sample

When sampling, hold the tester like a pencil i.e. with the strip pointing down into the blood droplet. Capillary action of the strip will suck the blood up.

Movement isn't usually too much of a problem, especially on the aerobars, until the effort gets close to maximal. At that point, a 2 second pause in pedaling to get the sample won't throw things off too much.



Are you using this to measure MLSS or VLamax ?


Both.

Since moving more towards triathlon, I've been more interested in MLSS (& metabolic testing) than anaerobic tests. But, after hearing Sebastian talk about the inverse relationship between VLamax and Fat Oxidation, I started to look into the metabolic data that I have to see if that relationship bore out &, sure enough, it does. So, while I still encourage athletes to get the 'full picture' with periodic metabolic testing, VLamax/anaerobic power testing can provide a really useful (& cheap) way to indirectly check-in on the metabolic side of things on a more frequent basis.

Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
Last edited by: Alan Couzens: May 12, 19 15:04
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Re: Measuring VLamax [Alan Couzens] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Alan Couzens wrote:
marcag wrote:
Alan Couzens wrote:
sryke wrote:
Alan Couzens wrote:
so I instruct my athletes to buy their own portable lactate analyzer (& no I don't get any kickbacks).


Really, this works? I can somehow picture how this would work for lower intensity steps but once you get past 4mmol or so?

I assume this would mean taking the sample from your finger tips? You don't contaminate the samples with sweat easily?

I've often pondered getting a device but I'm not really sure if this really works when doing on your own.


It's certainly easier if you have a friend/significant other who can help out (makes the initial outlay cheaper too if you go in on a lactate tester with a training buddy or 2 and agree to test each other!)

But you can definitely do it on your own if you organize beforehand, especially if using aerobars for the test:
* Set up a table to the top right corner of the bike (assuming right-handed)
* Lay out alcohol swabs already opened
* Have test strips lined up at the ready
* Have a stack of gauze pads

For each stage - alcohol wipe -> spike finger -> gauze wipe -> sample

When sampling, hold the tester like a pencil i.e. with the strip pointing down into the blood droplet. Capillary action of the strip will suck the blood up.

Movement isn't usually too much of a problem, especially on the aerobars, until the effort gets close to maximal. At that point, a 2 second pause in pedaling to get the sample won't throw things off too much.



Are you using this to measure MLSS or VLamax ?


Both.

Since moving more towards triathlon I've been more interested in MLSS than anaerobic tests but, after hearing Sebastian talk about the inverse relationship between VLamax and Fat Oxidation, I started to look into the metabolic data that I have to see if that relationship bore out &, sure enough, it does. So, while I still encourage athletes to get the 'full picture' with periodic metabolic testing, VLamax can provide a really useful (& cheap) way to check-in on the metabolic side of things on a more frequent basis.


Can you share your protocol for both ? Or point me to a link ?

In the past, for MLSS, I would do a 3 and 20min test and calculate CP. I would then do 4x8 at CP minus 5 and test lactate at the end of each 8min and see if it was steady

More out of curiosity than anything/

thx
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Re: Measuring VLamax [Kiwicoach] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Yeah only doing a PhD in this stuff

If you are interested, here are some papers that are relevant. These contain the theory for including VLamax in any analysis of performance.

A Theory of the Metabolic Origin of "Anaerobic Threshold"
A Mader and H Heck Int. J. Sports Med. 7 (1986) 45—65 Supplement

Evaluation of the endurance performance of marathon runners and theoretical analysis of test results
A Mader J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 1991 Mar;31(1):1-19.

Glycolysis and oxidative phosphorylation as a function of cytosolic phosphorylation state and power output of the muscle cell
A Mader Eur J Appl Physiol (2003) 88: 317–338

-----------------

Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom
Quote Reply
Re: Measuring VLamax [Jerryc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It's 2019 Jerry.

Most of the current power based systems: power duration curve or critical power modelling, allow you to estimate the aerobic v anaerobic contribution with far more specificity because the data comes from measuring performance. All based on an understanding of the underlying physiology.

So much data, from each ride.

Yes, measure lactate to understand the physiology.

But measure performance to understand performance!

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach
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Re: Measuring VLamax [Kiwicoach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
measure performance to understand performance!

A model of performance.



From http://bit.ly/2gHumG2 Discusses what is behind performance. INSCYD provides the details in their software from actual testing http://bit.ly/2ldZzDW Tells the coach what to train to increase the performance of the athlete.

---------

Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom
Last edited by: Jerryc: May 12, 19 16:07
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Re: Measuring VLamax [Jerryc] [ In reply to ]
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Data from one off tests, or post race lactates.

Verses

Data from every ride. Understanding performance from actual performance measures.

Choose wisely.

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach
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Re: Measuring VLamax [marcag] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
marcag wrote:
Alan Couzens wrote:
marcag wrote:
Alan Couzens wrote:
sryke wrote:
Alan Couzens wrote:
so I instruct my athletes to buy their own portable lactate analyzer (& no I don't get any kickbacks).


Really, this works? I can somehow picture how this would work for lower intensity steps but once you get past 4mmol or so?

I assume this would mean taking the sample from your finger tips? You don't contaminate the samples with sweat easily?

I've often pondered getting a device but I'm not really sure if this really works when doing on your own.


It's certainly easier if you have a friend/significant other who can help out (makes the initial outlay cheaper too if you go in on a lactate tester with a training buddy or 2 and agree to test each other!)

But you can definitely do it on your own if you organize beforehand, especially if using aerobars for the test:
* Set up a table to the top right corner of the bike (assuming right-handed)
* Lay out alcohol swabs already opened
* Have test strips lined up at the ready
* Have a stack of gauze pads

For each stage - alcohol wipe -> spike finger -> gauze wipe -> sample

When sampling, hold the tester like a pencil i.e. with the strip pointing down into the blood droplet. Capillary action of the strip will suck the blood up.

Movement isn't usually too much of a problem, especially on the aerobars, until the effort gets close to maximal. At that point, a 2 second pause in pedaling to get the sample won't throw things off too much.



Are you using this to measure MLSS or VLamax ?


Both.

Since moving more towards triathlon I've been more interested in MLSS than anaerobic tests but, after hearing Sebastian talk about the inverse relationship between VLamax and Fat Oxidation, I started to look into the metabolic data that I have to see if that relationship bore out &, sure enough, it does. So, while I still encourage athletes to get the 'full picture' with periodic metabolic testing, VLamax can provide a really useful (& cheap) way to check-in on the metabolic side of things on a more frequent basis.



Can you share your protocol for both ? Or point me to a link ?

In the past, for MLSS, I would do a 3 and 20min test and calculate CP. I would then do 4x8 at CP minus 5 and test lactate at the end of each 8min and see if it was steady

More out of curiosity than anything/

thx


Thanks Marc,

We do something similar...

* I do a traditional lactate step test with the athlete first and apply modified D-max to the curve to get an initial threshold estimate.
* Then on a different day we do 3-5 x 10 min at
1) ~10% below the Dmax threshold
2) ~5% below the Dmax threshold
3) at the Dmax threshold
4) ~5% above the Dmax threshold
5) ~10% above the Dmax threshold
and nominate MLSS as the max stage with steady lactate (<1mmol/L rise from minutes 5-10) We only go to the first stage that elicits >1mmol/L. IOW, it's pretty rare to need 5.

This sort of set - 3-5 x 10 min progressive long intervals in and around threshold is a pretty common session for my athletes so there are plenty of opportunities to pull out the lactate tester and further dial in/confirm the MLSS.

Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
Last edited by: Alan Couzens: May 12, 19 17:54
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Re: Measuring VLamax [Kiwicoach] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
It's 2019

Somebody forgot to tell this cyclist - http://bit.ly/2HcsaU4

This is not the only top cyclists and triathlete - peruse the INSCYD site - also http://bit.ly/2HhulWx

----------------------

Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom
Last edited by: Jerryc: May 12, 19 17:33
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Re: Measuring VLamax [Jerryc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jerryc wrote:
Quote:
It's 2019


Somebody forgot to tell this cyclist - http://bit.ly/2HcsaU4

This is not the only top cyclists and triathlete - peruse the INSCYD site

----------------------

Yawn, correlation does not imply causation.

I'm picking choosing his parents wisely was a bigger factor.

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach
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Re: Measuring VLamax [Kiwicoach] [ In reply to ]
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That isn't particulary correct.

The mechanical power (which isn't the same as performance!), measured by a powermeter does not allow to draw conclusions / quantify the energy contribution from specific metabolic pathways. This can not be done by any critical power model. It would be so great if it would be possible, but unfortunately it isn't.
From a mathematical point of view, this should be pretty obvious: there is one given metric (power) to compute three unknown sources which create this power.
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Re: Measuring VLamax [Sebastian Weber] [ In reply to ]
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Sebastian Weber wrote:
That isn't particulary correct.

The mechanical power (which isn't the same as performance!), measured by a powermeter does not allow to draw conclusions / quantify the energy contribution from specific metabolic pathways. This can not be done by any critical power model. It would be so great if it would be possible, but unfortunately it isn't.
From a mathematical point of view, this should be pretty obvious: there is one given metric (power) to compute three unknown sources which create this power.

Which is why I usually refer to any of the power based metrics as an estimate, from the estimate of threshold (be it FTP, CP or percentage of a 3min, 5min, 8min or 20min test), VO2max, FRC or W', and an estimate of FRC v FTP contribution as a estimate of aerobic v anaerobic energy supply. Of course underlying physiology is far more complex, and there is much to be learned.

However for the purpose of coaching athletes, the FRC v FTP contribution to exercise for a given duration is sensitive enough to distinguish between sprint, sprint/kilo, kilo/pursuit, pursuit/enduro, enduro/TT, TT/roadie, stagerace/roadie with the 102 good power datasets I have. Also within riders, sensitive enough to observe a shift towards FRC leading into track nationals and towards FTP leading into road nationals.

So to take the Tony Martin example, would have spotted that his power was more pursuit/enduro and from that would have taken the same approach you did to do more endurance work to shift him to enduro TT or TT roadie depending on his current focus.

WRT to performance, it depends on what it means to you. Studies show that MAP correlates with power in a 16.1-km time trial, but not the overall time on the road. Be interesting to see if power to weight, or power to frontal area had a stronger relationship with the overall time.

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach
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Re: Measuring VLamax [Kiwicoach] [ In reply to ]
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Fair enough.
No worries here, I didnt say FTP or W' aren't useful metrics.
Just wanted to make clear that those metrics allow for now conclusions on how the energy is composed.
Using something like W' as an indicator anaerobic energy supply mechanism, and FTP as an indicator for aerobic metabolism is a pretty far stretch - to say the least.
But if some of those estimates allow you to make good training programs for you athletes using plenty of experience and data - thats great and this is what counts at the end of the day!
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