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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [mickison] [ In reply to ]
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mickison wrote:
RChung wrote:
burnthesheep wrote:

In other words, focus on the 80% losses first. Then the 20%.


Can you do both? Is that allowed?


You sound like my boss when I ask what the priority tasks are? His response is they’re all top priority


The metric Gourley was proposing was "watts saved." I propose something different: the ratio of "watts saved" to either cost or effort.

If you can do something inexpensively or quickly or without much effort it's worth it even if the "watts saved" is less than 10 watts.

Ignoring small gains simply because they're small is short-sighted.

One small gain that I use is to keep my jersey zipped up all the time. The gain is (relatively) small but the implementation is quick and painless.
Last edited by: RChung: Mar 15, 19 10:02
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
burnthesheep wrote:

In other words, focus on the 80% losses first. Then the 20%.


Can you do both? Is that allowed?

Of course.

I should have said "for me".

Kids are hungry, wife has chores for me...........gotta pick one for now and toss the other on the "to-do" list.

I don't have time to "do both" unless something on the 20% list is super quick to perform, like a latex tube install. Even then, gotta balance that to see if something quick is on the 80% to-do list.

Next on my personal list is a new fit video at home. Same time invest probably as me wanting to make the TT bike 1x. I can guess at finding more savings from the video.
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Pyrenean Wolf wrote:
Maybe he should have called the book SLOWER

Because if you decide to ignore small gains you need to go :
crap tyres (little difference with good tyres)
crap tubes (it's ok)
average wheels (good enough - it will not make you run faster)
basic frame (who need a real TT frame - aero weenies snowflakes)
big bottles on the frame (more handy)
high position (why bother ?)
wool shirt (more style)
big round helmet (safer)
and you can skip some training sessions (more recovery)
another sausage (mmmmhhh...)
some more chocolate (good things cannot hurt)
some wine (good for recovery)
some beer (hydration is key)
...

Yeah, absolutely. Everybody should do that....
Personally as I'm a bit studdborn and stupid I will stick with the old stupid method of marginal gains

I don't think the author is wrong.

For the typical AGer, whom I'm guessing the author is targeting, it's ALL about training, which is 80+% of your results. Literally, makes the entire difference of how well you will do on race day, because the typical non-FFOP AGer leaves so much on the table from training deficiencies, that it is the single biggest determinant of race day performance.

Marginal gains for the AGer are just that - marginal. Meaning they are so small that they make nearly insignificant contributions to that MOPish AGer compared to the monster effects of training properly.

The typical MOP Ager would absolutely do better to just IGNORE all the fancy aero stuff, fancy training ideas, ignore power, ignore HR, and just train consistently, 1-2hrs per day at low to moderate intensity, for several years. They will crush the inconsistently training version of themself every time, even if that version had $30k of the latest and greatest gear and equipemnt.

Now if you're gunning for a national-class AG win or KQ, you gotta check ALL the boxes. At that level of performance, marginal gains can and do make the difference between kona-bound or going home off the podium. But I suspect that's not the main audience that the author was aiming at.
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Do we need a book called FASTER just to train moderate 1 or 2h a day ?

No

Maybe a piece of paper, with "JUST TRAIN 1 OR 2h MODERATE, THEN EAT A BANANA" is enough ?
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Pyrenean Wolf wrote:

Do we need a book called FASTER just to train moderate 1 or 2h a day ?

No

Maybe a piece of paper, with "JUST TRAIN 1 OR 2h MODERATE, THEN EAT A BANANA" is enough ?

Yep, it's true. Most MOPers who are aspiring to get faster make it waaaayyyyy more complicated than they need to.

You can even skip the banana until you're pushing FOP!
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:

I don't think the author is wrong.

For the typical AGer, whom I'm guessing the author is targeting, it's ALL about training, which is 80+% of your results. Literally, makes the entire difference of how well you will do on race day, because the typical non-FFOP AGer leaves so much on the table from training deficiencies, that it is the single biggest determinant of race day performance.

Marginal gains for the AGer are just that - marginal. Meaning they are so small that they make nearly insignificant contributions to that MOPish AGer compared to the monster effects of training properly.

The typical MOP Ager would absolutely do better to just IGNORE all the fancy aero stuff, fancy training ideas, ignore power, ignore HR, and just train consistently, 1-2hrs per day at low to moderate intensity, for several years. They will crush the inconsistently training version of themself every time, even if that version had $30k of the latest and greatest gear and equipemnt.

Now if you're gunning for a national-class AG win or KQ, you gotta check ALL the boxes. At that level of performance, marginal gains can and do make the difference between kona-bound or going home off the podium. But I suspect that's not the main audience that the author was aiming at.

I would agree with you if going online and shopping for fast tires and tubes...and then installing them interfered with a typical AG's ability to train. Or that the additional disposable income of those items meant that they couldn't train as much. Can I not install tires and tubes after my 1-2 hours of low to moderate intensity workout while sitting on the couch watching TV? Can I not shop around for a fast race suit and aero helmet during my free time? Does spending $200 that I may or may not have prevent me from going out on a 1-2 hour ride or run the next day?

What you're suggesting is that looking for, purchasing, and implementing marginal gain items is mutually exclusive. If that's the case, then every typical MOP Ager should get off of ST because they are wasting their time on the internet when they should be out training. Because it's impossible to train hard and still have time in the day to browse ST.
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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What is your best time for an IM ?
How old are you ?
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [Jason N] [ In reply to ]
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Jason N wrote:
lightheir wrote:


I don't think the author is wrong.

For the typical AGer, whom I'm guessing the author is targeting, it's ALL about training, which is 80+% of your results. Literally, makes the entire difference of how well you will do on race day, because the typical non-FFOP AGer leaves so much on the table from training deficiencies, that it is the single biggest determinant of race day performance.

Marginal gains for the AGer are just that - marginal. Meaning they are so small that they make nearly insignificant contributions to that MOPish AGer compared to the monster effects of training properly.

The typical MOP Ager would absolutely do better to just IGNORE all the fancy aero stuff, fancy training ideas, ignore power, ignore HR, and just train consistently, 1-2hrs per day at low to moderate intensity, for several years. They will crush the inconsistently training version of themself every time, even if that version had $30k of the latest and greatest gear and equipemnt.

Now if you're gunning for a national-class AG win or KQ, you gotta check ALL the boxes. At that level of performance, marginal gains can and do make the difference between kona-bound or going home off the podium. But I suspect that's not the main audience that the author was aiming at.


I would agree with you if going online and shopping for fast tires and tubes...and then installing them interfered with a typical AG's ability to train. Or that the additional disposable income of those items meant that they couldn't train as much. Can I not install tires and tubes after my 1-2 hours of low to moderate intensity workout while sitting on the couch watching TV? Can I not shop around for a fast race suit and aero helmet during my free time? Does spending $200 that I may or may not have prevent me from going out on a 1-2 hour ride or run the next day?

What you're suggesting is that looking for, purchasing, and implementing marginal gain items is mutually exclusive. If that's the case, then every typical MOP Ager should get off of ST because they are wasting their time on the internet when they should be out training. Because it's impossible to train hard and still have time in the day to browse ST.

Don't disagree with you in that there's no penalty for buying speed. Sure, if you've got the cash, go crazy, so long as it's not interfering with your training time or goals.

That's still not the point of the author or my point though. The point is that all that stuff is MARGINAL. If it makes you happy to save 1 minute in an 2:35 finish time Oly race through $3k of aerodynamic stuff, sure, go for it! And remember that with good training, you probably could have gone 2:30 or lower with none of that stuff and with just more and consistent training.

I am not a KQ guy yet I rock the race wheels, both for looks as well as for the tiny speed gain that literally makes zero difference in my local AG podium results at my meagre levels of performance.
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [Jason N] [ In reply to ]
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Jason N wrote:
lightheir wrote:

I don't think the author is wrong.

For the typical AGer, whom I'm guessing the author is targeting, it's ALL about training, which is 80+% of your results. Literally, makes the entire difference of how well you will do on race day, because the typical non-FFOP AGer leaves so much on the table from training deficiencies, that it is the single biggest determinant of race day performance.

Marginal gains for the AGer are just that - marginal. Meaning they are so small that they make nearly insignificant contributions to that MOPish AGer compared to the monster effects of training properly.

The typical MOP Ager would absolutely do better to just IGNORE all the fancy aero stuff, fancy training ideas, ignore power, ignore HR, and just train consistently, 1-2hrs per day at low to moderate intensity, for several years. They will crush the inconsistently training version of themself every time, even if that version had $30k of the latest and greatest gear and equipemnt.

Now if you're gunning for a national-class AG win or KQ, you gotta check ALL the boxes. At that level of performance, marginal gains can and do make the difference between kona-bound or going home off the podium. But I suspect that's not the main audience that the author was aiming at.

I would agree with you if going online and shopping for fast tires and tubes...and then installing them interfered with a typical AG's ability to train. Or that the additional disposable income of those items meant that they couldn't train as much. Can I not install tires and tubes after my 1-2 hours of low to moderate intensity workout while sitting on the couch watching TV? Can I not shop around for a fast race suit and aero helmet during my free time? Does spending $200 that I may or may not have prevent me from going out on a 1-2 hour ride or run the next day?

What you're suggesting is that looking for, purchasing, and implementing marginal gain items is mutually exclusive. If that's the case, then every typical MOP Ager should get off of ST because they are wasting their time on the internet when they should be out training. Because it's impossible to train hard and still have time in the day to browse ST.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. What I think lightheir is getting at is that people will spend hours and hours researching which fast tire is marginally faster than the other one. Or which 60mm rim is slightly faster than the other 60mm rim. Is that an efficient use of time, to endlessly debate and go back and forth over whether to get a GP4000 or a Vittoria? Over what, 1 or 2 watts, maybe?

Likewise, a fancy training plan with all the numbers is useless if you aren't training consistently. If you're inconsistent, then there's no point in a PM. Get consistent first, then once you're doing that, then look at how you can enhance that consistency. Which is somewhat anathema to the typical triathlon culture of upgrade, upgrade, new toys, new toys....

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Pyrenean Wolf wrote:
What is your best time for an IM ?
How old are you ?

No IM for me. I'm M43, last Oly was slowish on time 2:25 but good was enough for a USAT85 score . So I can only creep onto the podium in small local races if nobody fast shows up, and I have no chance at national-class podiums. So I'm probably a (FO)MOPer - the 80/20 rule does apply to me. I use the cool-looking aero stuff mainly for looks and fun factor - I'm under zero illusion it's making me significantly faster compared if I had more training time/quality at my meagre level of performance.
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [hubcaps] [ In reply to ]
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hubcaps wrote:
I read his book when I started in the sport. The info was okay and most of the info easy to find if you are a geek. I don't think it influenced me much except holding off for many years before buying carbon aero rims. However, that was more confirmatory than eye opening.

I should review the book, but looking him up now there's something that doesn't vibe well with me. As a geek, I'm constantly looking for the most up to date info. He didn't continue that. It seems like he disappeared. He deleted his twitter and doesn't have anything new posted online except this: http://jim-gourley.blogspot.com/
His velopress bio, it states he his a multiple ironman finisher. I can't find one finish. He keeps bragging about being a rocket scientist. His bio reads like he is twisting the truth. I could be wrong. Since he graduated with a degree in aerospace engineering, he might be working on something top secret.

One thing i'd always bear in mind with 'Rocket Science'... the acceptable (and certainly actual) failure rate is at a level that any other industry or activity would find apalling, uttely unnaceptable, and untennable as a business.
Would you accept a bike, car, or frezer where on average you and several others died every 1 in 50 rides / uses ?
Just sayin'.
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Why should they ignore it? You have no response for why they can’t do both. Please explain How is an AGer better off ignoring potential speed gains? Or how making sensible purchases diminishes even a single second of training time/effort. I never skipped a single training session to research speed or make a purchase. Not once. I hope you and everyone else takes the advice in the article.
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
Why should they ignore it? You have no response for why they can’t do both. Please explain How is an AGer better off ignoring potential speed gains? Or how making sensible purchases diminishes even a single second of training time/effort. I never skipped a single training session to research speed or make a purchase. Not once. I hope you and everyone else takes the advice in the article.

Read my post again - I never said ignore it. Go ahead and go crazy buying 'free speed!"

Just don't lose the reality that it's all marginal gain, and like I said, unless you're a FOP athlete, training better trumps all that stuff easily.
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
Jason N wrote:
lightheir wrote:


I don't think the author is wrong.

For the typical AGer, whom I'm guessing the author is targeting, it's ALL about training, which is 80+% of your results. Literally, makes the entire difference of how well you will do on race day, because the typical non-FFOP AGer leaves so much on the table from training deficiencies, that it is the single biggest determinant of race day performance.

Marginal gains for the AGer are just that - marginal. Meaning they are so small that they make nearly insignificant contributions to that MOPish AGer compared to the monster effects of training properly.

The typical MOP Ager would absolutely do better to just IGNORE all the fancy aero stuff, fancy training ideas, ignore power, ignore HR, and just train consistently, 1-2hrs per day at low to moderate intensity, for several years. They will crush the inconsistently training version of themself every time, even if that version had $30k of the latest and greatest gear and equipemnt.

Now if you're gunning for a national-class AG win or KQ, you gotta check ALL the boxes. At that level of performance, marginal gains can and do make the difference between kona-bound or going home off the podium. But I suspect that's not the main audience that the author was aiming at.


I would agree with you if going online and shopping for fast tires and tubes...and then installing them interfered with a typical AG's ability to train. Or that the additional disposable income of those items meant that they couldn't train as much. Can I not install tires and tubes after my 1-2 hours of low to moderate intensity workout while sitting on the couch watching TV? Can I not shop around for a fast race suit and aero helmet during my free time? Does spending $200 that I may or may not have prevent me from going out on a 1-2 hour ride or run the next day?

What you're suggesting is that looking for, purchasing, and implementing marginal gain items is mutually exclusive. If that's the case, then every typical MOP Ager should get off of ST because they are wasting their time on the internet when they should be out training. Because it's impossible to train hard and still have time in the day to browse ST.


Don't disagree with you in that there's no penalty for buying speed. Sure, if you've got the cash, go crazy, so long as it's not interfering with your training time or goals.

That's still not the point of the author or my point though. The point is that all that stuff is MARGINAL. If it makes you happy to save 1 minute in an 2:35 finish time Oly race through $3k of aerodynamic stuff, sure, go for it! And remember that with good training, you probably could have gone 2:30 or lower with none of that stuff and with just more and consistent training.

I am not a KQ guy yet I rock the race wheels, both for looks as well as for the tiny speed gain that literally makes zero difference in my local AG podium results at my meagre levels of performance.

If I told you that you could save 2 watts by dropping your tire pressure 4 psi, would you do it or not? Would you use the author's argument that it's a marginal gain, thus it should not be your concern at the moment?

Just because a gain is marginal, does not mean that it's expensive or difficult to implement. Everything has a cost/benefit. Equipment or setup choices should be made with the cost AND benefit in mind. The author is making a blanket statement that only the benefit (> 10 watts) should be evaluated when deciding the order of implementation. That's my point.
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [Jason N] [ In reply to ]
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Dude read my posts again - I'm not disagreeing with you on your (obvious) points.

If it's cheap and easy, with no downside, of course do it! (duh). Even if it's expensive and you can afford it, go crazy buy it as long as it's not messing something else up.

My point still stands though - if you're a MOPer (like me), the equipment choices after the basic level of a decently fitting road-style bike (not even TT bike), are strictly marginal. Do it for fun, not because it's taking you to the next level of performance.

With regards to your 2 watts saved for 4psi, I'm with the author on this one. I don't care enough about 2 watts saved (statistical noise) to deviate from the typical psi I run in training. I would literally ignore that recommendation completely as if it didn't exist.
Last edited by: lightheir: Mar 15, 19 11:32
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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We have very different definitions of marginal.
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
We have very different definitions of marginal.

What's your definition?
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [Jason N] [ In reply to ]
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Jason N wrote:

If I told you that you could save 2 watts by dropping your tire pressure 4 psi, would you do it or not?

I have no idea. It would mostly depend on whether or not I believed you. You could be right. You could be full of crap.

If I told you that you could save 2 watts by removing every other spoke from your wheels, would you do it?

If I told you that you could save 5 seconds on your swim by wearing 3 caps, would you do it?

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [Jason N] [ In reply to ]
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Jason N wrote:
Just because a gain is marginal, does not mean that it's expensive or difficult to implement. Everything has a cost/benefit. Equipment or setup choices should be made with the cost AND benefit in mind. The author is making a blanket statement that only the benefit (> 10 watts) should be evaluated when deciding the order of implementation. That's my point.

My point too.
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
Jason N wrote:

Just because a gain is marginal, does not mean that it's expensive or difficult to implement. Everything has a cost/benefit. Equipment or setup choices should be made with the cost AND benefit in mind. The author is making a blanket statement that only the benefit (> 10 watts) should be evaluated when deciding the order of implementation. That's my point.


My point too.

I agree with that also
1 watt is 1 watt
If easy and cheap, why not get it
whatever it comes in group of 3, 5, 10 or 20
Whatever it is by training properly and consistantly, or putting the right tyre, or getting in the right aero position, ....

Plus, it is fun
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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I find that 80% of world class performance is getting the basics right, 15% is paying attention to sensible but important smaller details, 10% is marginal gains like cleaning your chain properly before a race and waxing, 5% is in the mind and finally 2% is the secret sauce / plan only a few world class coaches are privy to that will rock your world for massive gainz

My 3.5c.......

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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I've had the luck to work with a handful of record-setting efforts. The commonality is that they worked on everything. As Tolstoy would have said, happy record attempts are all alike; every unhappy record attempt is unhappy in its own way.
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:


Dude read my posts again - I'm not disagreeing with you on your (obvious) points.

If it's cheap and easy, with no downside, of course do it! (duh). Even if it's expensive and you can afford it, go crazy buy it as long as it's not messing something else up.

My point still stands though - if you're a MOPer (like me), the equipment choices after the basic level of a decently fitting road-style bike (not even TT bike), are strictly marginal. Do it for fun, not because it's taking you to the next level of performance.

With regards to your 2 watts saved for 4psi, I'm with the author on this one. I don't care enough about 2 watts saved (statistical noise) to deviate from the typical psi I run in training. I would literally ignore that recommendation completely as if it didn't exist.

Excellent post. Please keep up the good fight for just settling for good enough. I greatly appreciate comments like this as they are what enable to me to still get good placings on the bike split in my mid-sixties despite a modest and gradually declining FTP.

BTW, a few years ago I thought I was really getting close to the point where any additional gains were going to be really hard. But I decided I was going to put together all the little things I could think of to eke out more watts. The results far surpassed my expectations.

But that's just my experience. Please, everyone else should just listen to Mr. Lightheir.
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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Well then the real question is what were those marginal gains for you that you changed in a positive way, and what did they actually gain you?
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Re: Jim Gourleys 10 watt rule. [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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tttiltheend wrote:
The results far surpassed my expectations.

I made two little changes (that were far from obvious) last fall and dropped CdA ~10% from an already low position. Cost was 0$.
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