If you look between Caster Semenya's legs, you're probably going to find girl parts. I think this is an issue of defining exactly what is women's sport. What is the definition of being a woman? How will this be definition be tested? If someone tests partially female and partially male, what then?

But you also have women who have internal testes and produce an elevated level of testosterone as compared to "normal" women, but for some reason their bodies can't use ANY of it. So they get to compete as women even though they have testes? (And then you have Lance Armstrong who only has one...but I digress).

So you end up with this crazy-ass flowchart to determine who is a man and who is a woman when it comes to sport and competition. What it boils down to is that sport is a human-created concept to determine who was the fastest, etc. Then we decided that women should be able to play, too, but only compete amongst themselves. Swell. Again, completely human created concept. But then Mother Nature is like, "What the hell, nobody bothered to ask me. Ima throw a wrench all up in your reindeer games. Whatcha gonna do now?"

"She's a hermaphrodite."

i'm not sure, but i think we say intersex now. i think hermaphrodite and retarded are in the same word bucket.

"She's a hermaphrodite."

i'm not sure, but i think we say intersex now. i think hermaphrodite and retarded are in the same word bucket.

I have 2 daughters, and 2 granddaughters. So//

So you are cool with your daughters and granddaughters never being able to compete in professional sports? Very big of you Dave to commit their possible futures to the also ran pile to suit your world views. Hope they feel the same way when they are able understand what you feel they ought and ought not be able to do with their lives. Billy Jean King would be turning over in her grave, if she were dead of course..

Wow, putting words into my mouth?

So you didn't say if women really want to be equal, then they should just all pitch up with the men?

Interesting, sounds like we do not even have all the "facts" to ask some of these questions.

If I step back and think of this, compared to things like Age Groups, weight classes, etc., we really are just playing games. Each person has advantages at birth to do certain things better than others. I am 6'5. Not tall enough to have considered college basketball, but plenty tall to do well in high school. Now, why did I have to play on the "male" team and not be allowed to plan on the "female" team?

I have 2 daughters, and 2 granddaughters. So,

I always smile when I hear females yell but we are not being treated equally. Pay, etc. But, then on the other side they say but in athletics, we cannot have just sport, we have
to break it up into male/female or it is not fair. And now we have this issue going on about what make a person female. Is it parts? Or T level? Or just how one feels in their head?
Wow, all of this makes my mind spin.

I guess I am just surprised more "women" are not trying to defend the split they got away from men by looking between the legs. Now with federal rulings that you can be whatever you want in your head and use any restroom, locker room, etc., how can there be anything relating to anything anymore as to whether one is "male" or "female"? Maybe it is time to step back and ask why are there even different groupings? Just seems like you cannot have things all ways, but we all know how little logic is used in discussions vs emotions.

Interesting times

Ok Dave, I have no idea what you just said. I just asked, did you say women should just compete with men if they want to be equal, pretty simple question, but apparently needs a very complicated answer..

'Tis a slippery slope, indeed.

Basically, h2ofun is saying, "So...do you want to be equal or not? Because equal means, well, equal."

If you're arguing in support of being allowed to fight in combat situations (because women can do anything men can do, and sometimes better) but then argue for different qualifying standards for physical tests, what the heck is the point? Arguing for equality, but then insisting revised (read "unequal') qualifications or only competing against other women kind of kills your argument, does it not?

Now, not saying that there aren't some sports where women couldn't compete with men...ping pong, archery, rifle/shooting...and not saying that SOME women can't compete with the 90th percentile of men...for example, the Ninja Warrior stuff, triathlon/Ironman, etc...by and large men are going to come out on top in tests of physical prowess. That doesn't mean women are any less awesome than men any more than it means that the men who can't compete with the elite females are lesser human beings.

Everyone is different, men and women are different. Arguing for equal rights and access and pay and all is great. I agree. But trying to make an argument for actually being physically equal...well either they are (should compete against men) or they aren't (should compete against women).

Now, not saying that there aren't some sports where women couldn't compete with men...ping pong, archery, rifle/shooting...and not saying that SOME women can't compete with the 90th percentile of men...for example, the Ninja Warrior stuff, triathlon/Ironman, etc...by and large men are going to come out on top in tests of physical prowess. That doesn't mean women are any less awesome than men any more than it means that the men who can't compete with the elite females are lesser human beings. //

Sure some women are fit to do combat, but keep in mind that is not what I'm talking about, the 90%tile. I'm talking about the top of the spear, the 99.99%. So since we"know" women cannot compete with men at that level in sport, it made/makes sense for them to have their own division. Just like we have a division for kids, bigger kids, and young teenagers. Mixing in an argument that some women can be firefighters or soldiers and pass the tests, well that is not even close to what this argument is. Dave seems to want it to be, in his equal in everything argument, but they are separate issues.


I was just trying to make him see that, but of course I broke a long held promise to myself to stop trying to do that. I though that throwing in the future prospects of his daughters and granddaughters might shake his brain shake loose and a rational thought might just fall in, my mistake.. (-;