Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ericmulk wrote:
NormM wrote:
I think it's ridiculous trying to regulate endogenous testosterone levels for determining competition eligibility.... least common denominator. If you have a Y chromosome you are ineligible to compete as a female. Let the genotype not the phenotype be the determining factor.


This is such a common sense suggestion that I find it hard to believe that it is not used. My understanding has always been that the presence or absence of the Y chromosome solely determines a person's genetic sex. This would simplify matters greatly. :)

Except there are people with Y chromosomes that are immune to testosterone, so this is where this gets a bit complicated.
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
chaparral wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
NormM wrote:
I think it's ridiculous trying to regulate endogenous testosterone levels for determining competition eligibility.... least common denominator. If you have a Y chromosome you are ineligible to compete as a female. Let the genotype not the phenotype be the determining factor.


This is such a common sense suggestion that I find it hard to believe that it is not used. My understanding has always been that the presence or absence of the Y chromosome solely determines a person's genetic sex. This would simplify matters greatly. :)


Except there are people with Y chromosomes that are immune to testosterone, so this is where this gets a bit complicated.

Ummm, not trying to be flippant or argumentative but why does this necessarily complicate things??? Perhaps these peeps are less "masculine" but I would *think* they would still be consid male???


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [Runless] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Its hands down the best non-fiction book I've read in years. Its fascinating and the lack of willingness on the part of scientists - for largely good reasons - to publicly address some of the issues is because they will cause societal issues -

One of the problems that they face is that they understand some of the genetics and physiology involved but not all of it, and even if they did, it does not account for other individual factors such as work ethic, so you can have all the hardware but non of the software and do nothing. The issue is both are a continuum and its not really clear to what extent any individual factor takes precedent.

The areas of the focus of the Sports Gene are pretty diverse - baseball players vision, basketball players height and wingspan, highjumpers Achilles tendon's, the kelenjin distance runners and jamaican sprinters as well as some of the issues around gender

in each area some pretty compelling evidence is provided to explain performance and the sprinter one is interesting simply because many of the non-jamaican sprinters - it turns out - are related to the same Jamaican area through their family tree

I think one of the lessons from the book is that if you can, or where you can, identify a rare marginal gain over the rest of the human race such as leg / torso ratio combined with leg muscle and mass such as the kalenjin have, if you can then set up a system that identifies the potential runners early, and then get the ones with the work ethic you just start a distance running factory.

Sprinters - Jamaica, have done exactly the same thing which is why Bolt is running not playing cricket or football
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
When these "peeps" are born with female genitalia, raised as "female", and gain acclaim as women athletes, the matter becomes...complicated :)

Sincerely,
Captain Obvious

I do , of course, agree that the simple question of " 'x' or 'y' "? ought to be the determinant ....



ericmulk wrote:
chaparral wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
NormM wrote:
I think it's ridiculous trying to regulate endogenous testosterone levels for determining competition eligibility.... least common denominator. If you have a Y chromosome you are ineligible to compete as a female. Let the genotype not the phenotype be the determining factor.


This is such a common sense suggestion that I find it hard to believe that it is not used. My understanding has always been that the presence or absence of the Y chromosome solely determines a person's genetic sex. This would simplify matters greatly. :)


Except there are people with Y chromosomes that are immune to testosterone, so this is where this gets a bit complicated.

Ummm, not trying to be flippant or argumentative but why does this necessarily complicate things??? Perhaps these peeps are less "masculine" but I would *think* they would still be consid male???
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [sixt3] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
What if you are Y but have all female genitalia and all testosterone is inert. Martinez-patio being the case study.

Should she be excluded and forced to compete with men when she is androgen insensitive?
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [SallyShortyPnts] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply

Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [sixt3] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think this is the part that hasn't been well addressed in this thread. When the decision to exclude an athlete gets sprung as a sort of "gotcha" only when they make a breakthrough at the international level it starts to seem tragic and unfair. Sure it would be a bit painful to find out the first time you went out for the local girls track team that you don't qualify officially as a "girl" for high level competition, but at least you could decide to spend your time and energy on some other pursuit. When the athlete thinks they have done everything right (they were raised as a woman, didn't dope, etc), have sacrificed other life goals, etc and then only finds out about some arbitrary rule at the Olympics it naturally strikes a cord as unfair.
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [norma1997] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
norma1997 wrote:

What was your point in posting this photo?

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [sixt3]
Andrewmc
Aug 24, 16 0:31
Views: 52
What if you are Y but have all female genitalia and all testosterone is inert. Martinez-patio being the case study.

Should she be excluded and forced to compete with men when she is androgen insensitive





Yes. Someone like Martinez should not be allowed to compete as a woman. Matrinez is a man who happens to have an androgen receptor site problem so presents phenotypically as a female.
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Andrewmc wrote:
What if you are Y but have all female genitalia and all testosterone is inert. Martinez-patio being the case study.

Should she be excluded and forced to compete with men when she is androgen insensitive?

Andrew

Your question raises an important issue, and is the significance of my post.

It is unfortunate for some individuals who present as female, but who cannot utilize the "benefits" of the 'y' chromosome they are born with. Scientifically, they are male, though raised as female, and the presence of the 'y' chromosome is the line in the sand.
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [sixt3] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
When these "peeps" are born with female genitalia, raised as "female", and gain acclaim as women athletes, the matter becomes...complicated :)
Sincerely,
Captain Obvious
I do , of course, agree that the simple question of " 'x' or 'y' "? ought to be the determinant ....

Well, I'm glad you agree that X or Y should be the determinant. I wonder why the "elite panel" Andrew mentioned from The Sports Gene did not see it this way??? Possibly b/c they are "too close to the data", are overly concerned with being precisely correct, and can not see the proverbial forest for the trees. I've been that way myself sometimes, so I know of what I speak. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [Runless] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think it's ironic you mention Bjorn Daehle, but in this thread there has been no mention of Eero Mantyranta, who had a genetic condition that increased his red blood cell count. I see this as a similar situation, where there is a genetic disposition to 'enhanced performance,' but the athlete in question has taken no explicit action to engage in 'performance enhancing' activity.

I would also contend that there is some genetic predisposition to VO2. If there's an AG classification, why not a VO2 classification? I see no reason that someone should be required to take a pill to lower their T level, as you suggest, but people with high VO2 can compete against people with lower VO2. If total equality is really what we're going for, let's all race, in the words of Pre, "to see who has more guts," and not to see who has a better genetic makeup.
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [bgoldstein] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
bgoldstein wrote:
I think it's ironic you mention Bjorn Daehle, but in this thread there has been no mention of Eero Mantyranta, who had a genetic condition that increased his red blood cell count. I see this as a similar situation, where there is a genetic disposition to 'enhanced performance,' but the athlete in question has taken no explicit action to engage in 'performance enhancing' activity.

I would also contend that there is some genetic predisposition to VO2. If there's an AG classification, why not a VO2 classification? I see no reason that someone should be required to take a pill to lower their T level, as you suggest, but people with high VO2 can compete against people with lower VO2. If total equality is really what we're going for, let's all race, in the words of Pre, "to see who has more guts," and not to see who has a better genetic makeup.

competing in "open" categories we expect the winners to be biological outliers in some respects at least - they are the best human performers.
the difference in the women's category is that it is not open. by definition it is excluding ~50% of the population who happen to have some biological advantages (much as many of us would get our asses whipped by top women in most sports)
AG is a simple definition and reflects the fact that at different times in our lives we have different capabilities. notably, an AG win is not seen as the equal of an open win whereas an open women win is generally seen in similar light to an open men win.
both categorisations encourage people to make the most of themselves competing with vaguely similarly disadvantaged opposition

VO2 is by in large the determining factor in many sports so if we categorised on it we might as well not hold any competition. it is also something that can to some extent be trained rather than set at birth. it would be interesting though to try this, sort of like standard classes in motor racing - everyone has the same engine, see who can tune it best and then leave it to tactics and guts

if any categorisation, i'd take issue with weight classes in sports like weightlifting. to a fair extent if you want to lift heavy you should build muscle mass to the point where you shouldn't need a lighter weight class. i don't however want to encourage any more acceptance of large size as a norm though...

but yeah, it has already been suggested that we should get rid of all category competitions given the distortion of results and difficulties drawing the lines. there are pros and cons to that...

personally i say you can compete as a woman if you are undebatably female ie low T, no testes, no Y chromosome, normal lady parts etc. otherwise you can only compete in open (aka mens). tough on someone who's been raised as a woman and only finds out otherwise when they get to serious competition but thems the breaks. better to maintain integrity for the other 99%.
what would AGers think if i claimed to be 50 only for it to turn out that my parents had miscounted when i was a kid and actually i was only 45? (semi-serious)
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [bgoldstein] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
bgoldstein wrote:
I think it's ironic you mention Bjorn Daehle, but in this thread there has been no mention of Eero Mantyranta, who had a genetic condition that increased his red blood cell count. I see this as a similar situation, where there is a genetic disposition to 'enhanced performance,' but the athlete in question has taken no explicit action to engage in 'performance enhancing' activity.


Robert Forstemann has been mentioned. Same kind of deal. I'm willing to let those go.

Quote:
If total equality is really what we're going for, let's all race, in the words of Pre, "to see who has more guts," and not to see who has a better genetic makeup.


We're not going for "total equality," a strawman argument frequently brought up in doping threads. Taking advantage of superior genetics is a perfectly valid avenue to athletic success. We're merely trying to define a reasonable dividing line between men and women because that is a dividing line we've decided to draw for ourselves. And nature is being a biatch and not making that line easy to draw in some cases.
Last edited by: trail: Aug 24, 16 20:54
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think we're kind of on the same page here. As you said, you'd let genetic exceptions go. To me, personally, I think doping, and anything related insofar as it bars a person from competition, has to include some sort of intent. I find it totally unreasonable to bar someone from competition when they have personally taken no action to cause an unfair competition. Establishing some sort of acceptable T level is equivalent to establishing an acceptable red blood cell level, yet one we can let go and one we can't?

The equivalent strawman to counter my argument would be a 'typical' male attempting to compete as a woman, and I suppose our 'self-drawn line' would be enforced in that situation, somehow, but I don't think that scenario applies to this thread.
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I've no idea why they would have reached the decision they did but one could speculate and make the case that as physicians that they would be looking at the person holistically - not just the lab results - but psychologically as well and that in the case of a individual who's XY but has female phsyiology and an inability to utilise testosterone, who has been raised as a female and for an intents and purposes is treated as a female and viewed as a female by society that to exclude them from competition when they possess no advantage does not stack up.

To reach the conclusion that they should be excluded for being XY you'd have to make the case that its both in sports interests and not harmful to the individual concerned and clearly in the case of a woman - which they would be for the purposes of this conversation - who has been raised as a woman who has not material advantage over the rest of the field to exclude them could have serious pyschological consequences whilst it would have no bearing at all on any result - in the sense that they have no advantage going in to an event

I suspect that making the case in court would also be quite difficult - not because we can not all sit here and say "its really straightforwards, XY means you can not compete with females". I'm pretty sure that a court would not limit the basis of its decision in determining gender to a single factor, and as soon as it starts to look at other factors the discussion becomes much more complicated.

I do not have an answer for this - I have sympathy for everyone in the field, for a variety of different reasons. I saw CS crush the field at a diamond league earlier this year, and as soon as she walked out, its pretty clear she is physically very different. At the same time, whilst she is at one end of the spectrum, there are others for whom the differences are far less clear.

I think that part of the problem here is that the only way that this can be definitively solved is to have a hard line XX or XY but I also recognise that for many of the individuals concerned, and the concerned of the physicians, scientists and others involved that they may see this as being far more nuanced than a hard line in the sand would suggest
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
http://www.cnsnews.com/...e-male-female-sports

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Read the article dave, and they guys logic is a flawed as many here that are advocating for women to compete against men for overall winners.

Once again, being good enough to get in the army or other services is a little high bar that many women can get over. Competing in sport at the highest levels in the world is a bar that "NO" women can get over, thus elimination womens professional sport all together. To equate one to the other is like saying that everyone over 60 must compete in the 20-24 AG now, because we are all human, aren't we? We make up these categories for a reason, and the reasons for women having their own sports have not changed since they started getting a crumb of equality in the 1970's.

But I have already said all this, this author has no idea what he is talking about, but makes for good headlines I guess. Certainly he does not have 2 daughters and 2 granddaughters.
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
That is evidence of what?

I've two daughters. Till puberty they're likely to be able to go head to head with boys but at about 11 it's game over, they'll be physically slower, weaker, have a higher body fat percentage and will, for the purposes of competition, be different

Why would you think for one second it makes sense to mix them

You are one of the loudest individuals banging on about how you do for your age relative to your peers. Why would you deny your daughters and grand daughters the same privalege
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Will there be a post on building a lap pool magic?

Was yours concrete?
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Andrewmc wrote:
That is evidence of what?

I've two daughters. Till puberty they're likely to be able to go head to head with boys but at about 11 it's game over, they'll be physically slower, weaker, have a higher body fat percentage and will, for the purposes of competition, be different

Why would you think for one second it makes sense to mix them

You are one of the loudest individuals banging on about how you do for your age relative to your peers. Why would you deny your daughters and grand daughters the same privalege

I just love when a few try to say I said something I did not.

As usual, cannot have a discussion on all sides of an issues with some wanting to make it personal.

Oh well.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
That is evidence of what?

I've two daughters. Till puberty they're likely to be able to go head to head with boys but at about 11 it's game over, they'll be physically slower, weaker, have a higher body fat percentage and will, for the purposes of competition, be different

Why would you think for one second it makes sense to mix them

You are one of the loudest individuals banging on about how you do for your age relative to your peers. Why would you deny your daughters and grand daughters the same privalege

I just love when a few try to say I said something I did not.

As usual, cannot have a discussion on all sides of an issues with some wanting to make it personal.

Oh well.

Why don't you explain why you posted the article and share your thoughts on it?
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Andrew

My feelings are very much in line with what you have clearly presented here. Thank you for taking the time to share.
It is , indeed, very unfortunate for the athletes affected - both the individuals with physiological anomolies, and the other women looking for a level playing field. This issue is, IMO, not one of women's rights to equality to men , as has been brought up in this thread, but the right to compete fairly amongst themselves.

The quest for a compassionate solution to a delicate scientific challenge continues...




Andrewmc wrote:
I've no idea why they would have reached the decision they did but one could speculate and make the case that as physicians that they would be looking at the person holistically - not just the lab results - but psychologically as well and that in the case of a individual who's XY but has female phsyiology and an inability to utilise testosterone, who has been raised as a female and for an intents and purposes is treated as a female and viewed as a female by society that to exclude them from competition when they possess no advantage does not stack up.

To reach the conclusion that they should be excluded for being XY you'd have to make the case that its both in sports interests and not harmful to the individual concerned and clearly in the case of a woman - which they would be for the purposes of this conversation - who has been raised as a woman who has not material advantage over the rest of the field to exclude them could have serious pyschological consequences whilst it would have no bearing at all on any result - in the sense that they have no advantage going in to an event

I suspect that making the case in court would also be quite difficult - not because we can not all sit here and say "its really straightforwards, XY means you can not compete with females". I'm pretty sure that a court would not limit the basis of its decision in determining gender to a single factor, and as soon as it starts to look at other factors the discussion becomes much more complicated.

I do not have an answer for this - I have sympathy for everyone in the field, for a variety of different reasons. I saw CS crush the field at a diamond league earlier this year, and as soon as she walked out, its pretty clear she is physically very different. At the same time, whilst she is at one end of the spectrum, there are others for whom the differences are far less clear.

I think that part of the problem here is that the only way that this can be definitively solved is to have a hard line XX or XY but I also recognise that for many of the individuals concerned, and the concerned of the physicians, scientists and others involved that they may see this as being far more nuanced than a hard line in the sand would suggest
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Dave
The article you posted a link to seems to be arguing that if some women want equality in one vocation , that being the military, then in that writer's opinion all women ought to be forced to compete against men in all areas of life and sports.... I may have misunderstood the writer's intent, but that is my takeaway.

By linking to this article, it appears that you support his opinion... Hence, the questioning of your beliefs of how your daughters and granddaughters ought to be treated wrt equality.

Simply posting the link without a comment leaves your opinions open to interpretation...

h2ofun wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
That is evidence of what?

I've two daughters. Till puberty they're likely to be able to go head to head with boys but at about 11 it's game over, they'll be physically slower, weaker, have a higher body fat percentage and will, for the purposes of competition, be different

Why would you think for one second it makes sense to mix them

You are one of the loudest individuals banging on about how you do for your age relative to your peers. Why would you deny your daughters and grand daughters the same privalege

I just love when a few try to say I said something I did not.

As usual, cannot have a discussion on all sides of an issues with some wanting to make it personal.

Oh well.
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [sixt3] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sixt3 wrote:
Dave
The article you posted a link to seems to be arguing that if some women want equality in one vocation , that being the military, then in that writer's opinion all women ought to be forced to compete against men in all areas of life and sports.... I may have misunderstood the writer's intent, but that is my takeaway.

By linking to this article, it appears that you support his opinion... Hence, the questioning of your beliefs of how your daughters and granddaughters ought to be treated wrt equality.

Simply posting the link without a comment leaves your opinions open to interpretation...

h2ofun wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
That is evidence of what?

I've two daughters. Till puberty they're likely to be able to go head to head with boys but at about 11 it's game over, they'll be physically slower, weaker, have a higher body fat percentage and will, for the purposes of competition, be different

Why would you think for one second it makes sense to mix them

You are one of the loudest individuals banging on about how you do for your age relative to your peers. Why would you deny your daughters and grand daughters the same privalege


I just love when a few try to say I said something I did not.

As usual, cannot have a discussion on all sides of an issues with some wanting to make it personal.

Oh well.

You and others, IMO, just miss the point I always try to bring up.

I watch Fox, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, etc. I want to hear ALL sides to an issues. It is not about what I "agree" with or not, since, IMO, all this stuff is just
folks OPINIONS, and really means nothing. I love to debate. I love discuss. I love to look at all sides of things without emotion. But so so few folks can do this,
let alone do this would accusing the other of what their "position" on a topic is.

I believe in todays world you have to talk about what being 'female" vs "male" is. Seems to me you cannot ignore what the government is forcing upon society.
Is it not legal that a "male" can play on a high school "female" team because they identify as "female?

All I think any of us want is things to be "fair". Problem is, life is not fair. I have NO idea the solution, never have suggested one. I just tell my kids be the best you can
be, life is way to short to get all worked up on most of this stuff.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply

Prev Next