isn't there a saying something like "you can't win a triathlon on the swim, but you can certainly lose one"?

I am not saying swimming is not important - I am saying the search of perfection is not a good path. In re to Macca the pro race is totally different from swimming for age groupers. Yes you have to be out with the main pack in the pro race or you better be able to pedal back up to them.

---

Visit The Chipotle Calorie Calculator

I'll say it again: "the search for perfection is not a good path" is dead wrong. It's the only path, for both pros and everyone else. Every stroke you take should be in search of perfection. If not, you might as well join EN...or stay home and drink beer.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

You do realise not everyone takes this sport/hobby as seriously as guys like you.Some people just want to have fun,get fit and be social..

.

I sneeze too- the way to prevent this is to use some nasal spray- I have some nasonex I use after swimming, seems to do the trick.

I think everyone is in agreement that the OP, when approaching the wall, should skip the flip turn and instead hop out of the pool and do CROSS FIT.

---

-------
http://www.y-rocket.blogspot.com/

i've had to resort to wearing nose plugs. if i don't i'm sneezing and blowing my nose all day and night.

Maybe your definition of perfection is different from mine but perfection is impossible to achieve. You strive to be great at many things, not perfect at one.

---

Visit The Chipotle Calorie Calculator

Are you deliberately being obtuse?

"Every stroke you take should be in search of perfection"

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Yeah, me and my 7-8 hours of training per week. Really seriously.

But when I'm doing something, it seems reasonable to do it as well as I can. And it's pretty hard to be social when your in the middle of a swim interval. I guess I should focus on blowing bubbles or something?

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

What is the best way to learn flip turns?

And while on the subject of swimming skills, I KNOW butterfly is never going to help in tri, but it's a skill I just can't master, and would love to. (apart from anything else it looks so damn cool). Any suggestions? Have looked at a lot of youtube videos for flips, which have helped a lot. Any butterfly tips?

can any of these help?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFQpLyihI5M

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=channel

Try http://www.findingfreestyle.com/; search for "flip turn" and you'll find a page that describes a progression.

I'm not the one to ask about butterfly!

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

You do realise not everyone takes this sport/hobby as seriously as guys like you.Some people just want to have fun,get fit and be social

Using your logic, which argues there's no point in seeking perfection in swimming b/c it's just a hobby, is ridiculous when applied to cycling and running. I guess we should all just pedal squares, ride bikes that don't fit, and overstride.

Given many posters' obsessions with which wheels, which water bottles and which energy gel to use, I find it absolutely ridiculous that training recommendations (this, the barefoot, and EN threads come to mind) are met with such indignancy - "yeah well we're not pros and this works for me, so stop trying to give me good advice"

---

___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog

Why are you revealing my secrets?

I had this same problem . . . I have seasonal rhinitis (sneezing with pollen, mold etc). So I tried some of my nasal spray antihistimine, and no more sneezing after the swim. The product I use is called Astepro (Rx).

Butterfly is all about the timing, and the rest will follow from there. Start out by figuring out the kick. Lots and lots of kick. (hey, it's also great for core work) And only when you feel really, really comfortable with your dolphin kick do you even think about adding arms.

At which time, keep it one arm (three left arm, three right arm is a nice ratio- arm not in use is in front of the body) Two kicks per arm cycle- the hard one is at the finish of the stroke when you're generating enough momentum to get your arms out of the water for their recovery; the easier one is just after your hands start the stroke.

The thing that will kill you is that you will want to sneak in a glide and kick right when the hands enter the water in order to get a milisecond of rest, and you really don't want to do that because it destroys momentum/rhythm.

Only move on to both arms together when you feel the rhythm like a sled full of Jamaican bobsledders (Yeah, I loved Cool Runnings) and even then work into full stroke fly gradually- start with 3 left arm, 3 right, 3 full, and then 3 left, 3 full, 3 right, 3 full before you go full stroke fly the whole time- the one arm will give you some rest and remind you of what the timing is supposed to feel like when you do get to the double arm part of the drill.

Also note that fly requires a good amount of shoulder flexibility, and if you don't have it now, it's going to be harder to make full stroke work comfortably.

Lot's of people manage to enjoy themselves cycling and running without overthinking it.You should try it sometime.

.

Time spent does not equate to how serious( or uptight) someone is when they do something and you must not have spent much time watching social triathletes at the pool because there is a whle lot of chatter going on.

Typical ST answers to a simple statement which was that not all triathletes are as serious as others.Here on ST guys like yourself and others are serious,or let me say passionate,about the sport and are into the nuts and bolts of every aspect of it whiich is great.What happens here though,is that the thousands of people "who do triathlons" just for fun are completely discounted as a group.Guess what, there are folks out there doing races on shitty bikes or mountain bikes and they don't care about changing anything,There are thousands of social triathletes and swimmers who just want to hang out and have fun without (rightly or wrongly) learning to swim properly.There are thousands of runners out there in High-Tops or other stupid shoes and cotton clothes who don't care about anthing other than they "run a bit" .They just don't care aboout that stuff.

The OP asked a question and my view is yes he should probrably do flip turns but the sky will not fall if he doesn't.

.

Jill-- Thanks for the primer on the butterfly!!

Time spent does not equate to how serious( or uptight) someone is when they do something and you must not have spent much time watching social triathletes at the pool because there is a whle lot of chatter going on.

Typical ST answers to a simple statement which was that not all triathletes are as serious as others.Here on ST guys like yourself and others are serious,or let me say passionate,about the sport and are into the nuts and bolts of every aspect of it whiich is great.What happens here though,is that the thousands of people "who do triathlons" just for fun are completely discounted as a group.Guess what, there are folks out there doing races on shitty bikes or mountain bikes and they don't care about changing anything,There are thousands of social triathletes and swimmers who just want to hang out and have fun without (rightly or wrongly) learning to swim properly.There are thousands of runners out there in High-Tops or other stupid shoes and cotton clothes who don't care about anthing other than they "run a bit" .They just don't care aboout that stuff.

The OP asked a question and my view is yes he should probrably do flip turns but the sky will not fall if he doesn't.

This is a perfect example of a completely pointless post. You pretty much said that because there are people out there who do whatever they want, no one should offer training advice to anyone else, because it's possible that person might not take the sport seriously. Most of those folks aren't on here asking for training advice. If someone asks a question about how best to train, or how to do something, people who know what they're talking about are going to offer advice to the best of their ability. The alternative, saying 'do whatever you feel like and have fun', would be pretty terrible advice. No one is saying the world is going to end if you don't follow it. No one cares how much other people suck at swimming, running, etc, but if they ask for advice, it's pretty ridiculous to dismiss the answers by saying 'yeah but uh...a lot of people don't care about triathlon and don't care about getting better.'

---

___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog

Take a chill pill because it is obviously clouding your comprehension.

Do you ever spend time with complete beginners who are so intimdated by the attitude of a lot of experienced triathletes that they are too afraid to ask questions for fear of being publicly ridiculed?I do and that is the kind of thing that happens here when someone like the OP askes a simple question and immediately gets shit for it from the ST gurus.

Please show me where I ever said that people should not give advice or I have ever said that people SHOULD do whatever they want and not worry about getting advice.

What I am saying is that if people want to just go about participating in our sport with a little guidance they should not be given shit for not caring if they follow every single ST approved way of doing it.


.

.

These guys don't always do flip turns and they still manage to have a fun time racing,maybe that is why I like to hang out with them.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyk6UJPf7vs&feature=player_embedded




.

Public ridicule builds character. That's one reason all children should play sports. :)

---

___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog

Flip turns are a pretty basic thing. If you cant do a flip turn you probably arent very comfortable in the water. IMO if anyone is trying to be good at tri needs to do flip turns. I cant imagine how anyone could get into any rhythm on say anything form 500+ meter sets. And if you doing 50-100 intervals you will get left behind not doing flip turns if you are iin a pool with people that can swim. Why would people not want to learn.