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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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Ironman statement:
“Race officials have noted an instance of alleged outside assistance related to professional athlete, Svenja Thoes, during the IRONMAN Ireland, Cork triathlon on Sunday 14 August 2022.

“Following investigation by race officials, the athlete was issued a post-race disqualification. The appeals process remains open to the athlete per regular competition rules, whereafter results will be finalised.”
Last edited by: WhittleFit: Aug 15, 22 6:16
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [WhittleFit] [ In reply to ]
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I've seen that floating around out there. FWIW, they are yet to reply to us at Slowtwitch in an official capacity, nor have they sent out any media alerts about what's going on out there (which is highly unusual given the speed they turn those releases out for most races).

Ain't no drama like triathlon drama...

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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [42point2] [ In reply to ]
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42point2 wrote:
adnama wrote:
From the Ironman tracker, it looks like the first female across the line at Ironman Ireland (Svenja Thoes) was DQd shortly after crossing the line for outside assistance. Anyone know the story? That's huge - has a professional winner ever been disqualified before for a non-doping offense?



There's been some DQ's for accidental course cutting in the recent past. There was a woman (can't remember who) missed one of the buoys on the swim and Ditlev was DQ'd for going the wrong way on the run.

Can't remember anyone being DQ'd for outside assistance though. I imagine it would have to be pretty blatant to get more than a warning/penalty

Although outside assistance isn't associated with a time penalty, it's an auto-DSQ in the rules, hence the DSQ. They won't disclose any details on the incident until any appeals/protests are resolved. I'm sure that many have gotten away with it before, but with so many camera phones on course these days, it's harder and harder to not get caught with any of these types of rules infringements.

In terms of process. Athletes are usually informed if they have a penalty, or a DSQ on course, but they may choose to finish, in order to be able to protest the infraction later. Similarly, they may choose not to serve a time penalty, finish, get DSQ'd and protest that after as well. There could also be a DSQ after the finish based on protest by other athletes or sufficient evidence being available to the officials to do so. Again, the athlete has the right to protest the decision, but would need to provide evidence to counter whatever basis the officials had to make the decision to DSQ in the first place.

This is not a guilty until proven innocent situation. This is a situation where the officials had evidence, based on which they pressed charges (in this case the DSQ). The athlete can either except those charges (plead guilty) or could contest them in court (in this case a protest/appeal), that could either result in the DSQ being dropped, or confirmed. Based on what I've read about this, I suspect that the call was made on the basis of video of her accepting outside assistance, in which case it's going to be much moire difficult to get overturned (unless they had clear evidence, e.g. video that she didn't in fact get the assistance from outside). It's crappy, because if the results remain as is, the actual winner will be robbed of the experience of breaking the tape first, but in order for the due process to be followed, unless it's because someone is dangerous to themselves or others, they generally won't yank them from the course, so that they could finish, and then challenge the call, if they want to.
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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rrheisler wrote:
An athlete DQ is a lot more like a speeding ticket. You were observed doing X. The official makes a determination that X did, in fact, occur. It results in Y penalty. You may then appeal Y penalty.
I don’t think that is how a speeding ticket works. If you’re pulled over and get a speeding ticket, you can go to court and require the government prove its case. There is no penalty unless you either admit your guilt or are convicted by the trier of fact. Only after being convicted, would there be anything to “appeal.”
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [adnama] [ In reply to ]
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Within the comments of Svenja Thoes Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/svenja_thoes/?hl=de), Pro Triathlete Tanja Stroschneider from Austria claims to know that it was not only the outside assistance but also drafting AND unsportsmanlike behaviour. Lets see how this will develope.
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [Chris_Mint] [ In reply to ]
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Tri sutto who coaches her, posted on Facebook yesterday congratulating her on her win...
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [Sprusky] [ In reply to ]
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Sprusky wrote:
Tri sutto who coaches her, posted on Facebook yesterday congratulating her on her win...

and if you can't trust brett sutton, who can you trust?

____________________________________
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http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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iron_mike wrote:
Sprusky wrote:
Tri sutto who coaches her, posted on Facebook yesterday congratulating her on her win...


and if you can't trust brett sutton, who can you trust?

ha ha
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [Tribike53] [ In reply to ]
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Tribike53 wrote:
rrheisler wrote:
Again, generalities here, but the process looks something like this:

1.) Officials will other note a potential rules infringement or rules infringement is brought to their attention.
2.) An investigation takes place, and the officials make a determination of whether the athlete has violated the rule and issue the DQ.
3.) Athlete may then appeal that decision.

So in the court of racing is one deemed guilty until proven innocent? Seems like as of this moment she is DQ. Until the investigation proves otherwise she can’t collect any prizes?

In real life you’d be presumed innocent if you broke a law. Police would then investigate the charge and indict you on a criminal statue if they felt they had collected enough evidence.

Are you new to sports? This isn’t a police investigation. In every sport the officials call what they see and don’t have to prove it. Minus a couple high impact play types where there is instant replay, nothing is arguable.

The only way you’re going to win an appeal in a triathlon is if they happen to write down information about you next to the number that isn’t right, wrong bike, tri suit color, etc. It’s just how it works.
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [Chris_Mint] [ In reply to ]
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Chris_Mint wrote:
Within the comments of Svenja Thoes Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/svenja_thoes/?hl=de), Pro Triathlete Tanja Stroschneider from Austria claims to know that it was not only the outside assistance but also drafting AND unsportsmanlike behaviour. Lets see how this will develope.

I learned from this that the German for drafting is Windschatten, which I like a lot.
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [cherry_bomb] [ In reply to ]
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cherry_bomb wrote:

I learned from this that the German for drafting is Windschatten, which I like a lot.

When I did Norseman I realised the speed bumps in Eidfjord were locally known as fart humps! That put a smile on my face.

He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [Chris_Mint] [ In reply to ]
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Chris_Mint wrote:
Within the comments of Svenja Thoes Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/svenja_thoes/?hl=de), Pro Triathlete Tanja Stroschneider from Austria claims to know that it was not only the outside assistance but also drafting AND unsportsmanlike behaviour. Lets see how this will develope.

and how would she know if she was not at the race and therefore not a TO ....
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [pk] [ In reply to ]
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Absolutely right!
And I didn´t say that her accusations are proven in any way and if there is no more evidence to come than this false accusation would for sure be the real unsportsmanlike behavior.
I guess being DQ from a race were you crossed the finishline first is more than devastating. But if then people start with accusations like this, we should look more closely into it to find the truth. If people run around blaming other athletes with no evidence then this should be discussed as this would definetly be the wrong direction for our sport!
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [Grantbot21] [ In reply to ]
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"In theory, in the US you’d be presumed innocent if you broke a law. "


- fixed that for you.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [Chris_Mint] [ In reply to ]
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Chris_Mint wrote:
Absolutely right!
And I didn´t say that her accusations are proven in any way and if there is no more evidence to come than this false accusation would for sure be the real unsportsmanlike behavior.
I guess being DQ from a race were you crossed the finishline first is more than devastating. But if then people start with accusations like this, we should look more closely into it to find the truth. If people run around blaming other athletes with no evidence then this should be discussed as this would definetly be the wrong direction for our sport!


Is there evidence out there? This is what I found below. If she did in fact take outside assistance, then I understand she broke the rules. I get that. But it seems like there is no concrete evidence. Am I missing something??

Official statement
“Race officials have noted an instance of alleged outside assistance related to professional athlete, Svenja Thoes, during the IRONMAN Ireland, Cork triathlon on Sunday 14 August 2022.
“Following investigation by race officials, the athlete was issued a post-race disqualification. The appeals process remains open to the athlete per regular competition rules, whereafter results will be finalised.”
IRONMAN Ireland results not yet final: Svenja Thoes issued with DQ - Elite News - TRI247

Death is easy....peaceful. Life is harder.
Last edited by: Triingtotrain: Aug 16, 22 14:23
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [Triingtotrain] [ In reply to ]
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As I noted earlier in this thread:

1.) An official is made aware of a breach of the rules.
2.) A determination of whether that breach occurred is made by officials. For outside assistance, if it is determined that it occurred and there can be a time penalty served, a time penalty will occur (don't quote me, but I'm 95% sure it is 30 seconds for a half, one minute for a full). If a time penalty can NOT rectify the situation, the only other penalty available is disqualification.
3.) The athlete is allowed to appeal the rules infraction post-race, at which point an official's final judgment will come to pass.

So, following your post:
1.) IM Officials were made aware of a potential breach of the rules.
2.) They investigated it and determined that it took place; because it happened after she crossed the finish line, the only available remedy is disqualification.
3.) We do not know whether it was appealed; however, given that race results are still not finalized, I would suggest she has.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [fredly] [ In reply to ]
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fredly wrote:
"In theory, in the US you’d be presumed innocent if you broke a law. "


- fixed that for you.

Nope actually broke it, I wasn’t the one who said that.
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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rrheisler wrote:
As I noted earlier in this thread:

1.) An official is made aware of a breach of the rules.
2.) A determination of whether that breach occurred is made by officials. For outside assistance, if it is determined that it occurred and there can be a time penalty served, a time penalty will occur (don't quote me, but I'm 95% sure it is 30 seconds for a half, one minute for a full). If a time penalty can NOT rectify the situation, the only other penalty available is disqualification.
3.) The athlete is allowed to appeal the rules infraction post-race, at which point an official's final judgment will come to pass.

So, following your post:
1.) IM Officials were made aware of a potential breach of the rules.
2.) They investigated it and determined that it took place; because it happened after she crossed the finish line, the only available remedy is disqualification.
3.) We do not know whether it was appealed; however, given that race results are still not finalized, I would suggest she has.



She mentioned on Instagram that she is appealing. Is there a rule on how long the appeal process takes? It's already Wednesday Irish time, it seems strange that it's now 3 days after the race and a final decision hasn't be made!
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [adnama] [ In reply to ]
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adnama wrote:
...That's huge - has a professional winner ever been disqualified before for a non-doping offense?

USTS Championship 1989, the first 5 men's finishers were all DQ'd after the race or were given a 5 minute penalty. If I remember correctly it was a combination of drafting and maybe 1 or 2 had a center-line violation. The results magazine says the first 3 across the finish line were Miles Stewart, Jim Riccitello, and Harold Robinson. Miles and Jim are shown as DQs, Robinson with a 5 minute penalty and 4:27 behind the winner, Louis Murphy Jr., so that all makes sense. Based on the times on the results sheet, it looks like 4th/5th across the line were Leandro Macedo and Thomas Gallagher. There are 5 other pro men with DQs that race (including Lance Armstrong), as well as 1 more with a 5 minute penalty. Big old draft-fest that day, in the pre-drafting days, that Mike Plant even comments on while he's doing commentary for ESPN when he sees the helicopter video feed during the race.

I had a lousy race, let's call it a "learning experience", but in the books I'm 1-0 lifetime against Lance so there's that...
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [42point2] [ In reply to ]
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It's interesting that the other female podium athletes in the race, although referencing the situation, have not mentioned or congratulated Svenja on her race on social media. Contrast that to when Magnus Ditlev was DSQ after winning recently for inadvertently cutting the course (I forget which race) - the other pros were outraged and planning to donate their prize money to him before it was overturned.

Seems quite telling to me, I think if they perceived that the DSQ was unfairly given they would show a little more support.
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [earthling] [ In reply to ]
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earthling wrote:
cherry_bomb wrote:


I learned from this that the German for drafting is Windschatten, which I like a lot.


When I did Norseman I realised the speed bumps in Eidfjord were locally known as fart humps! That put a smile on my face.

One of the pleasures of being married to a Scandinavian (Dane) is seeing the word fart (speed) everywhere.

After almost 20 years of marriage, we still can't drive by a Fart Control sign in Denmark without my making a comment.
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [Dan Funk] [ In reply to ]
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Dan Funk wrote:
earthling wrote:
cherry_bomb wrote:


I learned from this that the German for drafting is Windschatten, which I like a lot.


When I did Norseman I realised the speed bumps in Eidfjord were locally known as fart humps! That put a smile on my face.

One of the pleasures of being married to a Scandinavian (Dane) is seeing the word fart (speed) everywhere.

After almost 20 years of marriage, we still can't drive by a Fart Control sign in Denmark without my making a comment.

I have same problem with German. I love seeing signs that say "Gute Fahrt" or right of way when driving is "vorfahrt" which I translate to who gets to fart first. I'm very mature.
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [pk] [ In reply to ]
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Here's a 'first hand account' by @Dan the Man of Thoes' bike riding skillz, from the 'I'm outraged at people accusing other people of malicious actions' thread started by Sheridan.
Dan The Man wrote:
Svenja Thoes did draft at Ironman Ireland.

I raced the age group race which started 10 minutes behind the pro field and during the bike section I caught and passed most of the female pro athletes. About 60 miles in to the bike I caught and passed Thoes and thought nothing of it until I noticed her shadow (it was super sunny!) riding very close to me, this continued for a few minutes and I shouted and gesticulated at her to get out of the draft zone. I was incensed that she was using an age grouper to gain advantage and steal prize money from the rest of the fair racing womens field. She took no notice and proceeded to stay in the draft zone for the next 25 miles approximately. It was obvious every time I looked behind and most of the time I could see her shadow. I was 2nd overall age grouper on the road, there was no one else around and there was no athlete congestion or anything that might have been deemed an excuse to mistakenly enter the draft zone, it was deliberate cheating for a significant amount of time. At about 85 miles into the bike the 3rd age grouper caught and passed me, we know each other so we exchanged a few words of encouragement and I used this opportunity to again shout at Thoes and tell the other age grouper that she was cheating. After this she decided to respect the rules, overtook me and pulled away for the final section of the ride entering T2 approximately a minute ahead.

As far as evidence is concerned I'm sure you could compare time splits on the bike, see that I took 10 mins out of her in the first 60 ish miles and then magically she was able to ride at my pace after I caught her. I'm sure there must be photographic evidence of this as well from on course as it went on for a long time. I finished 2nd age grouper overall and 1st 40-44, I don't care if I'm not anonymous, I'd rather the correct female pros receive their hard earned prize money and rule breaking should be punished. I don't know anything about the infringement which led to her DQ for outside assistance I didn't see anything of that nature either on the bike or run.

As an aside I'd suggest a female pro race should have 30 mins head start on male age groupers so that both races aren't interfering with each other. That's a minor point though in the context of the race, I would just like to add that no country could match Ireland for putting on an Ironman, I've raced 16 IMs all over the world and Youghal on Sunday delivered a race and an experience hands down better than anywhere else. If you get the chance, you should race Ironman Ireland, chapeau Youghal.
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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rrheisler wrote:
As I noted earlier in this thread:

1.) An official is made aware of a breach of the rules.
2.) A determination of whether that breach occurred is made by officials. For outside assistance, if it is determined that it occurred and there can be a time penalty served, a time penalty will occur (don't quote me, but I'm 95% sure it is 30 seconds for a half, one minute for a full). If a time penalty can NOT rectify the situation, the only other penalty available is disqualification.
3.) The athlete is allowed to appeal the rules infraction post-race, at which point an official's final judgment will come to pass.

So, following your post:
1.) IM Officials were made aware of a potential breach of the rules.
2.) They investigated it and determined that it took place; because it happened after she crossed the finish line, the only available remedy is disqualification.
3.) We do not know whether it was appealed; however, given that race results are still not finalized, I would suggest she has.

I understand the above. Was hoping for more details on this.

Death is easy....peaceful. Life is harder.
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Re: Ironman Ireland FPRO Winner DQd? [adnama] [ In reply to ]
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adnama wrote:
From the Ironman tracker, it looks like the first female across the line at Ironman Ireland (Svenja Thoes) was DQd shortly after crossing the line for outside assistance. Anyone know the story? That's huge - has a professional winner ever been disqualified before for a non-doping offense?

In 2011, Marcel Zamora (multiple winner) was DQd at Embrunman for tossing a jacket during the bike.
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