Which are not the true definitions of a scrum...as the resident Rugby Nerd, scrums are not disorderly, in fact they're very controlled.
Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
Triathlon Forum
Login required to started new threads
Login required to post replies
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? Context... rolling start has hurt it's desire. [HuffNPuff]
[ In reply to ]
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? [woof]
[ In reply to ]
I could just as easily postulate that the IMCDA decline correlated with the start of IM Whistler in 2014 which was closer to Seattle/Vancouver triathletes - the closest metro area to IMCDA. And the plummet also correlated with the shift of IMCDA to August in 2016.
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? Context... rolling start has hurt it's desire. [HuffNPuff]
[ In reply to ]
HuffNPuff wrote:
Scrum is a perfect description of a mass start. See Merriam-Webster dictionary definitions apart from Rugby: : a usually brief and disorderly struggle or fight : SCRAPE, SCUFFLE
: a usually tightly packed or disorderly crowd : THRONG
Yea, I sure miss those......IMAZ, IMWI, IMFL, IM Kona...... The scrum was part of the fun; sometimes fun, others ugly but always pretty damn cool. Today's races seem anticlimactic, especially Kona with the multiple starts.
Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer
TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? [woof]
[ In reply to ]
woof wrote:
hadukla wrote:
Sorry but there is no way that the mass start is responsible for this not selling out as fast... The numbers for WTC are simple and transparent, thanks to the Obsessed Ironman: https://www.obstri.com/?stats=1
In the Americas, participation in IM (specifically IM, not 70.3) is down since its peak in 2015. And this includes stats from South America where participation has been growing since 2015 so it is likely skewing the fact that NA is declining even more.
Just as there at <10% of participants caring about KQ, there are likely equally as few wanting a mass start swim.
A side from IMAZ that correlates well with the Mass start or lack of. Try
Ironman Coeur D'Alene
Year finishers
2017 837 (the last year IM offered)
2016 1150
2015 1331
2014 1944
2013 2122 (1st year of rolling start)
2012 2142
2011 2188
2010 2095
2009 2033
2008 1942
2007 2085
----------------------
I bet that if they offered this race with the mass start... it would sell out.
I would take that bet and put a large amount on it.
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? Context... rolling start has hurt it's desire. [TheStroBro]
[ In reply to ]
TheStroBro wrote:
Which are not the true definitions of a scrum...as the resident Rugby Nerd, scrums are not disorderly, in fact they're very controlled.Your argument is that the rugby use of the word scrum is the only valid definition, and that informal and more widely accepted definitions are improper; without even getting into the software development definition of scrum. Go ahead and use ruck if you like, it won't make sense to the majority of people. Meanwhile, I do not miss the mass scrum starts.
Edit. Scrum comes from scrummage which originated from scrimmage. The original definition is in sync with the popular interpretation.
scrimmage (n.)
sometimes also scrummage, late 15c., alteration of skirmish (n.). Meaning in rugby and U.S. football dates from 1857, originally "a confused struggle between players."
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? Context... rolling start has hurt it's desire. [HuffNPuff]
[ In reply to ]
That's great, but the Scrum is a process. That's why there's a scrum methodology in project management: because it's organized and not chaos as the dictionary would attempt to make some believe.
Scrum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XrzQDwEE0k
Ruck/Breakdown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG6IwlFfLmU
And yet both are nothing like a mass open water start.
Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
Scrum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XrzQDwEE0k
Ruck/Breakdown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG6IwlFfLmU
And yet both are nothing like a mass open water start.
Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
Last edited by:
TheStroBro: Nov 27, 18 12:12
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? [zoom]
[ In reply to ]
zoom wrote:
I wouldn't necessarily agree that participation in Ironman races among folks living in the Americas are down. The number of athletes racing in North American Ironmans may be down, but that doesn't mean that there are fewer people living in the Americas doing Ironman races. With the addition of races outside of the Americas, people who typically do races in the Americas are going overseas for their races. I am one such athlete. Over the past 6 years, I've done 2 races in North America and 4 overseas. The five years prior to that, all 5 of my Ironmans were done in North America.
Europeans who, in the past, would come to the U.S to do Ironman races are now staying home in the continent to do Ironman races since there are now more options available to them.
hadukla wrote:
Sorry but there is no way that the mass start is responsible for this not selling out as fast... The numbers for WTC are simple and transparent, thanks to the Obsessed Ironman: https://www.obstri.com/?stats=1
In the Americas, participation in IM (specifically IM, not 70.3) is down since its peak in 2015. And this includes stats from South America where participation has been growing since 2015 so it is likely skewing the fact that NA is declining even more.
Just as there at <10% of participants caring about KQ, there are likely equally as few wanting a mass start swim.
Don't even need to touch the CdA piece since that got shot down by HuffnPuff.
As for this, I am not sure why it matters who is actually participating in IMs, when the US contributes 80% of the participants at IMAZ (also easily found stats using the google machine), you're saying what, that US people want swims with mass starts? FYI- here are the US contributions to participation at IMAZ for the last 6 years
2018 - 80%
2017 - 82%
2016 - 86%
2015 - 88%
2014 - 85%
2013 - 88%
Not sure why I bothered to look this up as it is completely irrelevant to the discussion... but there it is. More foreign participation in IMAZ over the last two years than before but not that drastic of a difference to even really come to a conclusion.
Here are some facts for a conclusion...
Fact: WTC IM participation (doesn't matter by who) is down in the Americas.
Fact: WTC 70.3 Participation in the Americas is still growing even up to this year
Fact: No WTC 70.3s in the Americas have a mass start
808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? [hadukla]
[ In reply to ]
A. I'm not making any kind of statements that the lack mass start contributes to anything
B. My statement is along the line that the participation of the Americas' IM athletes is not down. It's just more spread out throughout the planet these days than in years past. For example, it may be down 8% from 2013 vs 2018 for IMAZ, but those 8% may have gone overseas or to other newer North American races.
C. I don't disagree with your facts that participation in Ironman races that take place on the soil of the Americas is down, but that doesn't mean that the number of IM athletes, living in the Americas, is fewer than before. Perhaps we are arguing two different things and splitting hair :)
With the addition of races outside of the Americas, people who typically do races in the Americas are going overseas for their races. I am one such athlete. Over the past 6 years, I've done 2 races in North America and 4 overseas. The five years prior to that, all 5 of my Ironmans were done in North America.
Europeans who, in the past, would come to the U.S to do Ironman races are now staying home in the continent to do Ironman races since there are now more options available to them.
https://www.obstri.com/?stats=1
In the Americas, participation in IM (specifically IM, not 70.3) is down since its peak in 2015. And this includes stats from South America where participation has been growing since 2015 so it is likely skewing the fact that NA is declining even more.
Just as there at <10% of participants caring about KQ, there are likely equally as few wanting a mass start swim.
Don't even need to touch the CdA piece since that got shot down by HuffnPuff.
As for this, I am not sure why it matters who is actually participating in IMs, when the US contributes 80% of the participants at IMAZ (also easily found stats using the google machine), you're saying what, that US people want swims with mass starts? FYI- here are the US contributions to participation at IMAZ for the last 6 years
2018 - 80%
2017 - 82%
2016 - 86%
2015 - 88%
2014 - 85%
2013 - 88%
Not sure why I bothered to look this up as it is completely irrelevant to the discussion... but there it is. More foreign participation in IMAZ over the last two years than before but not that drastic of a difference to even really come to a conclusion.
Here are some facts for a conclusion...
Fact: WTC IM participation (doesn't matter by who) is down in the Americas.
Fact: WTC 70.3 Participation in the Americas is still growing even up to this year
Fact: No WTC 70.3s in the Americas have a mass start
__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
B. My statement is along the line that the participation of the Americas' IM athletes is not down. It's just more spread out throughout the planet these days than in years past. For example, it may be down 8% from 2013 vs 2018 for IMAZ, but those 8% may have gone overseas or to other newer North American races.
C. I don't disagree with your facts that participation in Ironman races that take place on the soil of the Americas is down, but that doesn't mean that the number of IM athletes, living in the Americas, is fewer than before. Perhaps we are arguing two different things and splitting hair :)
hadukla wrote:
zoom wrote:
I wouldn't necessarily agree that participation in Ironman races among folks living in the Americas are down. The number of athletes racing in North American Ironmans may be down, but that doesn't mean that there are fewer people living in the Americas doing Ironman races. With the addition of races outside of the Americas, people who typically do races in the Americas are going overseas for their races. I am one such athlete. Over the past 6 years, I've done 2 races in North America and 4 overseas. The five years prior to that, all 5 of my Ironmans were done in North America.
Europeans who, in the past, would come to the U.S to do Ironman races are now staying home in the continent to do Ironman races since there are now more options available to them.
hadukla wrote:
Sorry but there is no way that the mass start is responsible for this not selling out as fast... The numbers for WTC are simple and transparent, thanks to the Obsessed Ironman: https://www.obstri.com/?stats=1
In the Americas, participation in IM (specifically IM, not 70.3) is down since its peak in 2015. And this includes stats from South America where participation has been growing since 2015 so it is likely skewing the fact that NA is declining even more.
Just as there at <10% of participants caring about KQ, there are likely equally as few wanting a mass start swim.
Don't even need to touch the CdA piece since that got shot down by HuffnPuff.
As for this, I am not sure why it matters who is actually participating in IMs, when the US contributes 80% of the participants at IMAZ (also easily found stats using the google machine), you're saying what, that US people want swims with mass starts? FYI- here are the US contributions to participation at IMAZ for the last 6 years
2018 - 80%
2017 - 82%
2016 - 86%
2015 - 88%
2014 - 85%
2013 - 88%
Not sure why I bothered to look this up as it is completely irrelevant to the discussion... but there it is. More foreign participation in IMAZ over the last two years than before but not that drastic of a difference to even really come to a conclusion.
Here are some facts for a conclusion...
Fact: WTC IM participation (doesn't matter by who) is down in the Americas.
Fact: WTC 70.3 Participation in the Americas is still growing even up to this year
Fact: No WTC 70.3s in the Americas have a mass start
__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? [zoom]
[ In reply to ]
zoom wrote:
A. I'm not making any kind of statements that the lack mass start contributes to anything B. My statement is along the line that the participation of the Americas' IM athletes is not down. It's just more spread out throughout the planet these days than in years past. For example, it may be down 8% from 2013 vs 2018 for IMAZ, but those 8% may have gone overseas or to other newer North American races.
C. I don't disagree with your facts that participation in Ironman races that take place on the soil of the Americas is down, but that doesn't mean that the number of IM athletes, living in the Americas, is fewer than before. Perhaps we are arguing two different things and splitting hair :)
To be fair, I also thought I was replying to OP and the mass start claim, because despite being number oriented, I can't read the difference between zoom and woof... so there's that... sorry.
Well, I certainly can't easily find the numbers to see if your statement about Americas Athletes being true, I am sure WTC could publish those numbers (yeah right...) or obsessed ironman or coach cox if they felt like it but given that USAT has confirmed lower participation overall and WTC IMs show lower participation, that leads me to believe *in my opinion* that there are lower number of north american athletes (I would guess South American is up). Alas, that is my opinion and not based on fact!
808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? [zoom]
[ In reply to ]
zoom wrote:
I wouldn't necessarily agree that participation in Ironman races among folks living in the Americas are down. The number of athletes racing in North American Ironmans may be down, but that doesn't mean that there are fewer people living in the Americas doing Ironman races. With the addition of races outside of the Americas, people who typically do races in the Americas are going overseas for their races. I am one such athlete. Over the past 6 years, I've done 2 races in North America and 4 overseas. The five years prior to that, all 5 of my Ironmans were done in North America.
Europeans who, in the past, would come to the U.S to do Ironman races are now staying home in the continent to do Ironman races since there are now more options available to them.
I've done 8 races that I can think of in Europe including 4 IMs. I'm not sure that is the driver for the decline in North America but there is no question there are many more options now for Europeans and their races seem to be doing better. So far, the following 2019 IMs are already sold out of general registration: Ireland, Austria, Germany, France and Sweden. I enjoy the travel and experience of European IMs far more than the US counterparts.
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? Context... rolling start has hurt it's desire. [ggeiger]
[ In reply to ]
Yea, I sure miss those......IMAZ, IMWI, IMFL, IM Kona...... The scrum was part of the fun; sometimes fun, others ugly but always pretty damn cool. Today's races seem anticlimactic, especially Kona with the multiple starts.[/quote]
THIS, exactly^^^^
Bring back the mass start!!
Team Zoot-Texas, and Pickle Juice
THIS, exactly^^^^
Bring back the mass start!!
Team Zoot-Texas, and Pickle Juice
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? Context... rolling start has hurt it's desire. [woof]
[ In reply to ]
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? Context... rolling start has hurt it's desire. [kiwi.]
[ In reply to ]
How long does it take to get the last athlete in the water ? so will that last athlete have 17 hours to finish?
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? [HuffNPuff]
[ In reply to ]
HuffNPuff wrote:
I could just as easily postulate that the IMCDA decline correlated with the start of IM Whistler in 2014 which was closer to Seattle/Vancouver triathletes - the closest metro area to IMCDA. And the plummet also correlated with the shift of IMCDA to August in 2016.
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? Context... rolling start has hurt it's desire. [Sbernardi]
[ In reply to ]
Sbernardi wrote:
They also changed the date to thanksgiving weekend in 2019 I believe.Hmmm well that’s probably going to double the cost of my flights now.
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? Context... rolling start has hurt it's desire. [Sbernardi]
[ In reply to ]
Sbernardi wrote:
They also changed the date to thanksgiving weekend in 2019 I believe.Wasn't it always over Thanksgiving weekend until 2018? Must have been an outcry to shift it back.
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? Context... rolling start has hurt it's desire. [HuffNPuff]
[ In reply to ]
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? Context... rolling start has hurt it's desire. [HuffNPuff]
[ In reply to ]
I dont think the huddle of the mass start has much if any affect on race numbers. And just because one races numbers may be down, or even a couple, does not mean the entire race schedule is. There are more ironman, especially 70.3's for folks to do, and I hear they are doing quite well. Especially the ones that supplanted other existing 1/2 races. At some point people will figure out that you cannot do multiple ironman in a season, and we will run out of one and done folks. That will level off ironman 140.6 numbers, especially if there are more options that keep popping up.
AZ will always do well because it is in coolish weather and a very easy course. People like fast times, so they go flat and short every time, with lots of opportunities to ride aero on the hoods...
AZ will always do well because it is in coolish weather and a very easy course. People like fast times, so they go flat and short every time, with lots of opportunities to ride aero on the hoods...
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? Context... rolling start has hurt it's desire. [Sbernardi]
[ In reply to ]
Sbernardi wrote:
I stand corrected. Thanksgiving is a week later next year.You had me there for a minute... I was relying on it being the usual Sunday before thanksgiving for the vacation plan! How long has it been the Sunday before?
808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? Context... rolling start has hurt it's desire. [monty]
[ In reply to ]
Mass start or rolling has little to do with participation levels.
For another example, take a look at IMNZ. It has seen its numbers dropping, and they still have the mass start. I raced there in 2014 and then again in 2017 and there was a significant dropoff in signups.
For another example, take a look at IMNZ. It has seen its numbers dropping, and they still have the mass start. I raced there in 2014 and then again in 2017 and there was a significant dropoff in signups.
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? Context... rolling start has hurt it's desire. [hadukla]
[ In reply to ]
It has always been the Sunday before. Unless it was in April. That was miserable!!
http://www.TriScottsdale.org
http://www.TriScottsdale.org
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? Context... rolling start has hurt it's desire. [IanH]
[ In reply to ]
IanH wrote:
Sbernardi wrote:
They also changed the date to thanksgiving weekend in 2019 I believe.Hmmm well that’s probably going to double the cost of my flights now.
No, still Sunday before Thanksgiving.
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? Context... rolling start has hurt it's desire. [monty]
[ In reply to ]
I also read that AZ is charging sales tax on the entry; something like $120 or so. If true, I wonder if this impacts on entries.
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? Context... rolling start has hurt it's desire. [woof]
[ In reply to ]
Guys, chill out... It's going to sell out tomorrow guaranteed. They're already at 90%...
What's your CdA?
What's your CdA?
Re: IMAZ took how long to sell out in prior years? Context... rolling start has hurt it's desire. [Tri-Bum]
[ In reply to ]
Tri-Bum wrote:
I also read that AZ is charging sales tax on the entry; something like $120 or so. If true, I wonder if this impacts on entries.Assuming that's even true, the math doesn't work even for an $825 entry fee. Google is telling me the Arizona tax rate is: "The combined sales tax rate for Phoenix, AZ is 8.6%. This is the total of state, county and city sales tax rates. The Arizona state sales tax rate is currently 5.6%. "