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Re: High HR when running [redrabbit] [ In reply to ]
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redrabbit wrote:
talegater wrote:
Your heart rate graph looks normal to me. You're 36, with a bigger build, running steady on a flat course in cool weather. It feels like a relaxed pace and if you weren't in pain or feeling like vomiting, I'd say you're ok,. Just keep running and building up those weekly base miles.

How many miles per week are you running? Just based on some very broad generalizations, hitting 176 is no big deal for the average in shape 36 year old guy. Wouldn't be surprised if you can push 195 bpm in race day.


Thanks talegater, that's really helpful. I have a 10k "race" on Saturday. Hoping for around 60 minutes. I will see how my HR works out.

After this I'm going to stop monitoring HR for a while as it is sucking the fun out of running.

I'm only doing about 10-12 miles a week at the moment. Around spring I did get up to 17.

I'm now focusing quite heavily on running now so going to try to build up to around 20 miles.


I don’t necessarily think it’s a good idea to just throw HR monitoring out the window here.

Take a look at my graph and notice the steady HR despite climbs in elevation (ignore the part around 41 mins that’s watch malfunction)

I think that’s what you want to work towards. See how there really isn’t much cardiac drift. It takes time and will come naturally the more you get consistent millage up. Once you can hit 40-50 mpw regularly you will start to shed some lbs and things should improve quicker.
Last edited by: MiRoBu: Oct 15, 20 5:34
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Re: High HR when running [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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Titanflexr wrote:
As I got into my 40s I found that at the start of my runs my HR will spike (10k race level....even though I'm running quite slowly) and stay high for the first mile or so, then drop to where it should be. It then subsequently creeps up due to HR drift.

This graph is pretty typical. The drops are waiting at stop lights, and FWIW the first mile was my slowest despite the high (for me) HR.

This is really interesting — Im in early 40s and experience the exact same thing for the first mile or so of most runs. I initially chalked up to my HR strap connection taking a while to get “situated” for whatever reason, but it’s been so consistent including across multiple HR monitors I’ve started to think it’s real. At any rate glad to hear I’m not the only one.
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Re: High HR when running [Lordless] [ In reply to ]
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Lordless wrote:
Titanflexr wrote:
As I got into my 40s I found that at the start of my runs my HR will spike (10k race level....even though I'm running quite slowly) and stay high for the first mile or so, then drop to where it should be. It then subsequently creeps up due to HR drift.

This graph is pretty typical. The drops are waiting at stop lights, and FWIW the first mile was my slowest despite the high (for me) HR.

This is really interesting — Im in early 40s and experience the exact same thing for the first mile or so of most runs. I initially chalked up to my HR strap connection taking a while to get “situated” for whatever reason, but it’s been so consistent including across multiple HR monitors I’ve started to think it’s real. At any rate glad to hear I’m not the only one.

How does your pace look over that same period ?

I notice as soon as I put my shoes on my HR jumps about 30 bpm just in anticipation of the run, but I ease into my runs usually running 30-45 seconds slower than the run average over the first mile - 10 mins and it’s pretty much all uphill.
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Re: High HR when running [MiRoBu] [ In reply to ]
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MiRoBu wrote:
I don’t necessarily think it’s a good idea to just throw HR monitoring out the window here.

Take a look at my graph and notice the steady HR despite climbs in elevation (ignore the part around 41 mins that’s watch malfunction)

I think that’s what you want to work towards. See how there really isn’t much cardiac drift. It takes time and will come naturally the more you get consistent millage up. Once you can hit 40-50 mpw regularly you will start to shed some lbs and things should improve quicker.

Actually, when you are in good shape, HR should respond quickly to changes in effort....elevation is irrelevant, if you slow down climbing a hill then the effort won't change...thus neither will HR. But, if you hold a steady pace while climbing your HR should climb rather quickly to match the increased effort. If it does not, that is a likely indicator of overreaching / or overtraining.

Likewise on the downslope...someone who is in good shape should see a rather rapid drop in HR as soon as the effort level drops. If it remains high, that's either an indication of conditions (heat/humidity) or poor fitness. The same is generally true at the beginning of a workout. Again, if it takes a long time for HR to reach steady state that matches the pace+conditions...that's a likely indicator of overreaching/training.

HR monitoring for a new runner who is only running 10-12 miles a week is not going to provide much value. It won't have much relevance to when he is in better run-shape with an adequate base...except to show that his HR is different from what it was. I personally wouldn't throw it out, because I like data. But, if its having an impact on his psyche, and sucking the joy out of running...I think its fine to turn it off for now. Perhaps a compromise would be to wear the HRM, but not display the HR. That way the data is available for review later...but, not sucking the life out of the act of running.
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Re: High HR when running [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:
MiRoBu wrote:
I don’t necessarily think it’s a good idea to just throw HR monitoring out the window here.

Take a look at my graph and notice the steady HR despite climbs in elevation (ignore the part around 41 mins that’s watch malfunction)

I think that’s what you want to work towards. See how there really isn’t much cardiac drift. It takes time and will come naturally the more you get consistent millage up. Once you can hit 40-50 mpw regularly you will start to shed some lbs and things should improve quicker.

Actually, when you are in good shape, HR should respond quickly to changes in effort....elevation is irrelevant, if you slow down climbing a hill then the effort won't change...thus neither will HR. But, if you hold a steady pace while climbing your HR should climb rather quickly to match the increased effort. If it does not, that is a likely indicator of overreaching / or overtraining.

Likewise on the downslope...someone who is in good shape should see a rather rapid drop in HR as soon as the effort level drops. If it remains high, that's either an indication of conditions (heat/humidity) or poor fitness. The same is generally true at the beginning of a workout. Again, if it takes a long time for HR to reach steady state that matches the pace+conditions...that's a likely indicator of overreaching/training.

HR monitoring for a new runner who is only running 10-12 miles a week is not going to provide much value. It won't have much relevance to when he is in better run-shape with an adequate base...except to show that his HR is different from what it was. I personally wouldn't throw it out, because I like data. But, if its having an impact on his psyche, and sucking the joy out of running...I think its fine to turn it off for now. Perhaps a compromise would be to wear the HRM, but not display the HR. That way the data is available for review later...but, not sucking the life out of the act of running.

I agree. Unfortunately the picture didn’t post. It had pace elevation and HR on it where it would show the correlation you described.

That being said it still takes me 10 mins to get my HR stable where I want it for the run, but I’m not going guns blazing.

I’d argue it’s much easier to increase volume when doing it at a lower effort than at a higher one.

If he wants to focus on running and become fitter, volume needs to increase.
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Re: High HR when running [redrabbit] [ In reply to ]
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Consistency, frequency, and volume are king. Never stop running, run more often, and eventually run more. A decent running base, for a pure runner is 6 days a week, and 35-ish miles a week. Its a wide, blurry line between 30-60mpw as far as what constitutes "really good". But, it starts somewhere in the 35 mpw or 6 hours per week range. Every, consistent, weekly mile up to 60 mpw will make a material difference in your run fitness.

Gains will be slow going below 20 mpw, but will improve significantly between 20 and 40 mpw. Running more often (days per week) will help. 4 is better than 3, 5 is better than 4, 6 is better than 5. Run a little bit, every day...try to run a little bit more this week than last week. Keep that up week over week, month over month. Don't try to run fast or hard. Just keep it all conversationally easy. If you finish each run feeling like you could keep going...you've got it about right.

Once you get into the mid to upper 20 mpw range, sneak a peak at your HR. You'll probably find it to be more meaningful. But, know that you will continue to see significant improvement as you climb up the miles-per-week mountain. Also once you get over the 25mpw range it will be of value to put some structure to your weekly miles. Come back when you get to that point...no reason to over complicate things now.

But, for now....just run a little each day. Run easy enough and short enough that you KNOW you can do this again tomorrow, and the next day, and the next day, and the next. Never do something today that might jeopardize the plan for tomorrow---its NEVER worth it.
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Re: High HR when running [MiRoBu] [ In reply to ]
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MiRoBu wrote:
That being said it still takes me 10 mins to get my HR stable where I want it for the run, but I’m not going guns blazing.

I’d argue it’s much easier to increase volume when doing it at a lower effort than at a higher one.

If he wants to focus on running and become fitter, volume needs to increase.

I think 10 minutes is on the outside limit...when it takes me 10 minutes, I know I'm overreaching, and probably need a day off. I prefer to see HR stabilize around the 5m mark.

As noted above, I think its clear I completely agree with easy effort for more volume. And, I agree that 10-12 mpw isn't much to work with and more is needed for improvement. But, I argue that frequency comes before volume, and is a better long term tool for additional volume. When I want to add more volume, the first thing I do is add another short run, as a double on one of my medium days.

Once I've adjusted to the stress of the extra volume from the double, I'll work to blend that volume back into the primary run that day. For example: Tuesday is an 8 mile run. I want to get to extend that to 12. I might do my normal 8 in the morning/lunch...then do an easy 2-3 after dinner. Then I would work to extend the double to 4-5. Once I'm doing 12-13 miles that is split over two runs, then I start trading the second run miles back into the primary run. Eg, 8+5, 9+4, 10+3, 11+2, 12...over 5-6 weeks.

I don't think a gazillion short runs is great for overall run fitness. But, its a good stepping stone to more volume, and then can be transformed into longer runs (per the above).
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Re: High HR when running [MiRoBu] [ In reply to ]
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MiRoBu wrote:
Lordless wrote:
Titanflexr wrote:
As I got into my 40s I found that at the start of my runs my HR will spike (10k race level....even though I'm running quite slowly) and stay high for the first mile or so, then drop to where it should be. It then subsequently creeps up due to HR drift.

This graph is pretty typical. The drops are waiting at stop lights, and FWIW the first mile was my slowest despite the high (for me) HR.

This is really interesting — Im in early 40s and experience the exact same thing for the first mile or so of most runs. I initially chalked up to my HR strap connection taking a while to get “situated” for whatever reason, but it’s been so consistent including across multiple HR monitors I’ve started to think it’s real. At any rate glad to hear I’m not the only one.

How does your pace look over that same period ?

I notice as soon as I put my shoes on my HR jumps about 30 bpm just in anticipation of the run, but I ease into my runs usually running 30-45 seconds slower than the run average over the first mile - 10 mins and it’s pretty much all uphill.

Again similar to what you experience, I think: first ~mile will be something like 10min/mile pace at 150 bpm but will then settle in at around 8:45/mile at 130 bpm. Perceived effort for that first 10-15 min is also way higher than the remainder.
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Re: High HR when running [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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I wouldn’t say it’s over reaching and maybe it’s closer to 15 mins. It’s usually right around 1.5-2 miles.

Target HR being middle of zone 2 so 135-140 based on HRR and a resting HR of 45. (Haven’t been lab tested to know max HR)

That being said there are a multitude of things that impact HR and can cause one to deviate from their target HR.

Morning runs my HR will be lower. I have nothing in my stomach including coffee.

Adding coffee will up my HR target 5bpm, similarly running in the evening your body’s HR is going to be naturally higher and I’m more likely to have carbed up 2 hours before. So it’s knowing what the different efforts feel like.

I’m not going to run a workout on an empty stomach and expect pacing to be topped off. It just doesn’t work that way for me. So if I want to do a workout where I know my HR is not going to be zone 2 I’ll do that in the evening.
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Re: High HR when running [redrabbit] [ In reply to ]
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redrabbit wrote:
Hi All,

About Me


36 years old and quite active but not massively fit
Did my first sprint triathlon about a month ago in a stupidly slow time of 2hrs 10 mins
I don't cycle much these days as I have no indoor set up or space, and I'm really busy with work

Running


I started running about 10 months ago but quite inconsistent. I can now run 5k most days if I wanted, and sometimes 10k 2-3 times a month if needed.

I am slow, I run a 5k in about 32 minutes.

I have a Garmin Fenix 6 and a Wahoo HR strap to go with it. I noticed when I first go it that when out on a "normal" run, my HR was about 170-180. I now know that this is in the very high range.

On another run, I tried to slow RIGHT down and it was still about 160.

Today, I went out:
  • I was running about 12 mins per mile at times
  • I covered only about 2.5 miles before I stopped as my HR was just continually going up and I was stopping so often
  • I stopped running anytime my HR went about 150 which was every 40-45 seconds roughly
  • After about 10 seconds of walking I started to run again

his is because my watch keeps telling me I am training too hard.

Today whilst running, I don't think I could have gone slower, it was almost embarassing, as I was jogging but barely moving anywhere.

Any advice?

Any thoughts on this? My resting HR is about 55 bpm, my top is 185bpm.

Thanks all



My advice:
Stop worrying about HR.

Run often.
Rest enough.

https://beginnertriathlete.com/...l.asp?articleid=2640
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Re: High HR when running [MiRoBu] [ In reply to ]
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MiRoBu wrote:
I wouldn’t say it’s over reaching and maybe it’s closer to 15 mins. It’s usually right around 1.5-2 miles.

At 15m...I absolutely would. The last time I saw it take that long I was in the middle of the Race Across Tennessee, running 100 mpw, over 14 runs, with one day off per month. Zero intensity....just logging maximum miles: 6-8 at lunch, 10-12 more after dinner.

In the last few weeks I've scaled back to 60-70 mpw. Even the day after a threshold run, my HR reaches stable average in less than 6 minutes. The day after my off day, its bang on 4min.

For reference: I'm 52, and pretty much a pure runner these days.

Quote:

Target HR being middle of zone 2 so 135-140 based on HRR and a resting HR of 45. (Haven’t been lab tested to know max HR)

That being said there are a multitude of things that impact HR and can cause one to deviate from their target HR.

Target zone doesn't really matter much in terms of expected response TIME. Nor do the conditions...Again for me: mid January (sub-freezing), 4:20m....Late August (Texas Summer) = 5:30m. They may affect the exact HR level that you stabilize at, but not really the time it takes to reach that level.

Anyway...we're straying pretty far off the OP topic.
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Re: High HR when running [redrabbit] [ In reply to ]
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I didnt read all the posts...

I think you being 36 5'7 175 and running a 5k in 30 minutes you are far from needing to worry about all the metrics of S/B/R.

I recently stopped using heartrate for training. Way too many variables effect it. I work swing shifts so sleep is a big one for me. I will sometimes use if for "fun".

I mainly go by RPE and pace. I also have a stryd that I use sometimes.

IF I were you I would drop everything but the run for now. I'd build up to 40 miles a week with at least two 90 minute runs/ walks. Something magical happens in training after 60 minutes and slowly ends at around the 120 minute mark.

AND do wall sits....
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Re: High HR when running [redrabbit] [ In reply to ]
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Re: High HR when running [xcmntgeek] [ In reply to ]
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Bad link. Fixed:

https://www.uphillathlete.com/...-deficiency-syndrome

Although...I'm not sure that describes this athlete.
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: Oct 16, 20 9:18
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Re: High HR when running [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for all of your replies. I think I will continue to monitor HR but not get too obsessed with it. As many of you stated I am new to running and still consider a 15-mile week very good! I will build this up to 20/25/30 etc and I'm sure things will continue to improve hopefully.

I did a 10k race yesterday, and finished in 62 minutes which I'm really happy with. I went all out: Heart Rate was pretty much 170 for nearly an hour.


Last edited by: redrabbit: Oct 18, 20 8:22
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Re: High HR when running [redrabbit] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds great! We'll done.

Yep... Take your time. Build up to it slowly, stay healthy and injury free... And you will improve.

Keep us posted on how things go. I always like to hear about people's progress!
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Re: High HR when running [redrabbit] [ In reply to ]
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Did you try measuring your pulse the old fashioned way? When you get to a zebra crossing perhaps. That is going to be close to 3 beats per second. It will be pretty obvious if the HRM is accurate or not.

What I'm getting at is I don't think those are your real HR numbers. Have you tried electrode gel or at least wet the strap before putting it on? Some types of clothes material will also create static and interfere with the readings. Try running shirtless just to test that theory out.
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Re: High HR when running [Dilbert] [ In reply to ]
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Why don't you think those numbers are not real?
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: Oct 19, 20 16:44
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Re: High HR when running [redrabbit] [ In reply to ]
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I'm in a similar situation (older 50 and heavier, 5'8" and 184 lbs). I've learned alot from this thread..... currently need to run 12 minute miles to keep my heart rate under 140...been doing zone 2 running since May.

Similar volume, 28k last week.....my goal is to keep it mostly zone 2 until 50k per week.... keeping the heart rate low is definitely easier on my body.

Thanks for starting this thread.
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Re: High HR when running [redrabbit] [ In reply to ]
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Here’s some work I did with an athlete. The two runs are about 4 weeks apart. If I told you what the work was to get her that change, you wouldn’t believe me.



http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
Last edited by: SnappingT: Oct 19, 20 18:33
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Re: High HR when running [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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I might. But, you'd have to tell me....
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Re: High HR when running [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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A structured program Involving a lot of meditation and integrated “brain training drills” tailored to endurance athletes.

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
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Re: High HR when running [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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Well, damn it...now we need to know more ; )

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: High HR when running [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
A structured program Involving a lot of meditation and integrated “brain training drills” tailored to endurance athletes.

Interesting. I spent a lot of time in my youth learning to control heart rate and blood pressure via biofeedback. So, no it doesn't surprise me.

So, obviously hr alone isn't a performance indicator.... But, I'm curious if this approach eventually provides improved results? In the case above hr is lower but pace is within the margin of error.
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Re: High HR when running [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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I’ve been working on it with a handful of athletes for about 5 years and I can say without a doubt it leads to performance increases/improved results.

Funny you should mention biofeedback. This all started with a company that makes a wearable EEG designed for athletes.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
Last edited by: SnappingT: Oct 19, 20 19:05
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