your saddle is probably high. your bike might be too big, because you could definitely stand to go lower, especially once you lower your saddle. neck/shoulder "pain" could be a few things. do you mean "pain" or do you mean fatigue/discomfort?

Thanks for your reply. What makes you think the bike is too big? Is it the reach or everything in general? Its a size small.
I have had 165mm cranks fitted to try and let me get the saddle up a bit, do you think I need to go back down?

It is definitely neck/shoulder pain, at the base of my neck and either side of the trapezius muscle. Probably the most limiting thing for me on the bike. Interestingly, I also get the pain on my road bike.

by how much could you lower your armpads?

insofar as your traps/neck are concerned it just sounds like your carrying a lot of tension. you look "propped up" on your armpads, you are not very relaxed. the limiting factor for most people the longer the ride gets is not their big aerobic muscles that they train constantly, it's their tiny little support muscles that wear out because they don't know how to relax.

Okay that's fair enough, I guess I do need to relax more!

I currently have a 20mm spacer underneath each armpad, which the retul fitter said would help in middle to long distance to keep me more comfortable.

well i think you look fairly UNcomfortable even for that short 100 yard distance you rode in the video. fitters who do that sort of thing, in my opinion, are copping out because they don't really know any better.

but more importantly - 20mm is the MOST you could lower your bars? that's what makes me think your bike might be too big. i'm guessing you're on the size you're on because you don't want to ride 650s...?

Sorry to press you, just for my own understanding- what makes me look uncomfortable?

Yeah, 20mm is the most I could go down. Do you mean wheel size by 650s? Canyon do also do a speedmax that's an XS with a 700 wheel size.

That XS is a big drop in stack (510->481) and a small drop in reach (405-397). I think those things would not be bad for you.

You look uncomfortable because you look tense, that's what I'm trying to say. And clearly you ARE tense because your shoulders/neck/etc is literally "painful" when you ride in the aerobars. Learning how to relax will require a lot of postural awareness that can't really be "coached" that well.

Ah okay, its the tenseness that makes me look uncomfortable.

So in an ideal world, you'd have me swap that S bike out for an XS? So in theory that would get me lower at the front end, almost maintaining my reach as it is now?

I like what James is saying to you... he's doing "postural coaching" which is one of the most valuable things a fitter can do for a client.

Keep it up, keep making the changes the group recommends and keep posting the iterative process videos.

Edit: except the "bike too big" stuff. Once James gets you "into the box" or "on the grid" you're going to want Profile Subsonic brackets to get lower on that ridiculously high Canyon.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

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That's a Canyon. It's not too big, just poor specs. Needs the Profile Subsonic brackets and then it's a win-win... long enough and low enough.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Thanks for your reply.

Do you have any links or articles I could look up about postural coaching and how to go about starting to relax on the bike?
I actually had no idea I looked so tense until James pointed it out. So that was really helpful. I also had no idea my bike was too big!!
Do you also think the bike is too big?

Thanks
Salim

Not too big. Just right but with the wrong cockpit because of the stem/bento choice the company made. Profile Subsonic.

Edit: also, shorter cranks

James is trying to convey what it should feel like when you do what he and I do, what it feels like for us when we are aero, and also why. Not sure there's any articles on it, most bike fitting tech or teaching focuses on the various aspects of fitting, the process, the underlying philosophy, etc. Riding a bike is a whole different ball game. IOW, James has both good fitter knowledge and good rider knowledge, and is coaching you through that process trying to convey what he's learned over years the hard way.

(BTW, there's also great fitters who don't even ride who can communicate this stuff because they just get it or are empathetic or seek tons of feedback from riders and thus can communicate it)

The Slowtwitch series on fitting is your first stopping point. I consumed that many times and it's the foundation for any fit knowledge. Once you've got that you can apply what you've learned to your own fit and posture.

Eric

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Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Eric is saying that you probably just need to change the aero bars and you'll be good.

Thanks a lot, that's really helpful. I'll have a read through that link

Is this what you recommend? subsonic-race-35a
Just out of interest, how much would that lower my stack height? I'm guessing you also think I should remove the 20mm spacer from under my current armpads?

I don't think it will have to be that complicated. Now you're reaching down with your shoulders and pressing your upper body up creating tension in your neck and shoulders. Instead "press" or let your chest(sternum) fall down towards the stem/top tube. This will lessen the tension a bit while also getting your upper body more horizontal. Additionally try not to lift your head up and instead let your chin fall towards your forearms.

If you get that right I'm not sure you actually need to go much lower, if at all, than this frame allows you. But it's hard to say for sure just based on that clip.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

I somewhat (respectfully ) disagree with starting to change your bike's front end just yet. Pause your video exactly at 10 s, and take a screenshot, your leg is almost fully extended and you are still "ankling" to reach the pedals, I would get the saddle sorted out first because if you lose 20 mm on the saddle you will have to bring your front end lower too and the bike just might not work for you. Maybe and xs?

Yes, you'll eventually need the Subsonic, although I don't think you'll need the extensions as you already have some on your bike.

Edit: are you talking spacers under your *pads* or are you talking about the 20mm of spacers Canyon puts under the stem to make it flush with the bento and aesthetically pleasing? If you're talking about under the stem, don't remove those... bad juju to do that. Not pleasing to the eye. I'm sort of joking but mostly serious.

I think the order of operations needs to be:

1. get your saddle height right and take out the 20mm spacer below *pads*, if that's where they are.
2. learn to do what Bjorn and James are saying
2a. find the right saddle for you in order to do what Bjorn and James are saying
2b. post and repost videos here for feedback, iterative process, make incremental changes
3. install the Subsonic once you get the posture right, basing your pad stack and reach on what your torso and newly relaxed and shrugged shoulders are telling you to do
4. discover that it's super hard to do what James and Bjorn are telling you to do even with the adjusted fit
5. tilt your pads to 15 degrees which solves everything.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

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Out of interest does it depend on which model with Canyon, Eric? From memory isn't the difference between the CF and the CF SLX not just the front end but also the frame stack/reach? Like, different enough they are almost different bikes. I don't know if it is because of the recessed stem position with the bayonet fork on the SLX but still, the place where you mount the stem is way higher on the CF. Sadly.

But yeah, on the OP's video you can tell from the front brake it is the CF which is much taller than the CF SLX.

Yes I'm specifically talking about the CF. Canyon confusingly names their two completely different bikes the same name and implies an incremental shift from CF to CF SLX but that's just plain wrong. The CF is great with the Subsonic mount.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Thanks Eric, that's really useful input and much appreciated.
I'll start on those things.
Yes the 20mm spacer is under the armpads. I haven't touched the one under the stem.

The bike came with a fizik mistica saddle, which I really didn't get on with, however now I have an ISM PS 1.1 which I find really comfortable.

I saw the CF SLX only comes in a small, medium or Large.
Would the small CF SLX have enough adjust-ability to mirror what I'm looking for in my current bike? Or would it likely be too big?

your current bike will be fine most likely

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Eric, James, Bjorn and Co.

I've taken your points and done them-
1. Saddle down 1cm
2. 20mm spacer out from under the arm pads
3. Lots of reading about head position and 'turtling'. It's harder than I expected and Bjorn's point about letting my sternum fall down into the stem really helped.

Here is an update video. I rode like this today for 75km and felt surprisingly good. I couldn't see all the way up the road in this position, maybe only a few metres or so ahead of me...that's normal from what I read?



Do you have any further feedback points based on the update video? Or is it now just practicing being in the turtle position.

Cheers

Attached is a comparison pic