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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Alex,

Is it safe to say that the Gatorade/table sugar ratio is just mixed to "flavor preference"?

Additionally, one of the reasons that I've used maltodextrin in my mixtures is because I don't perceive it as "sweet" as table sugar.
Last edited by: mkleive: Jan 12, 21 8:59
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [mkleive] [ In reply to ]
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That's because maltodextrin isn't as sweet. Fructose is sweet, no matter what the source. I wonder how a 1:1 of maltodextrin and fructose compares to straight table sugar. FWIW, I find 6:1 maltodextrin to table sugar almost too sweet. I can't imagine what 90g of sugar in a regular bottle would taste like. That's roughly half a cup of sugar!



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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [mgreer] [ In reply to ]
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I've made 1:1 combinations of maltodextrin to fructose and I think the "sweetness" is just perfect for me . . . and less sweet than table sugar alone. But looking at your graph my taste buds might just be confused.
Last edited by: mkleive: Jan 12, 21 11:21
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [mkleive] [ In reply to ]
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mkleive wrote:
Is it safe to say that the Gatorade/table sugar ratio is just mixed to "flavor preference"?

More sugar is better because it moves the dial closer to 1:1. (and cheaper)

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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [mgreer] [ In reply to ]
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mgreer wrote:
That's because maltodextrin isn't as sweet. Fructose is sweet, no matter what the source. I wonder how a 1:1 of maltodextrin and fructose compares to straight table sugar. FWIW, I find 6:1 maltodextrin to table sugar almost too sweet. I can't imagine what 90g of sugar in a regular bottle would taste like. That's roughly half a cup of sugar!

Sugar is sweet for sure. No getting around it. I find sugar more palatable than the flavor intensities of other beverages. Chase with water. I always have water onboard to chase.

Have yet to find a way to make upper limits of carb absorption happen without water to chase, especially since I'm often doing training sessions where I don't want to consume the upper limit of 1-1.2L fluid per hour.

Front bottle is always carbs+sodium+water. Back bottle always water.

I often have front bottle concentrations of 30-40% (300-400g/L). 140g of carbs per hour containing a minimum of 70g fructose is just hard to make not sweet. So, I ultra-concentrate the front bottle and chase with water most the time. This mostly applies to 2-5-hr rides in not-super-sweaty conditions, in my personal case.

Fun anecdote:
Wife did Rapha Festive 500 in a single effort. (310-mi ride) I prepped bottles.
Each bottle contains:
1.25 cups sugar (250g carbs)
1 scoop Gatorade (~60g carbs)
2 tsp sodium citrate (~2000mg sodium)
1/8th tsp caffeine powder (200mg caffeine)
Water

Not pictured: 6 more 1L bottles of water.


Pretty much the only thing that didn't go wrong during her attempt, was her nutrition/hydration. She drank all 5 + a small meal + coffee, off the bike every 62 miles, plus half a back-up one of mine once she started having to slow down due to mechanicals. She weighs ~63kg, fyi. Total carb consumption during the 25 hrs of riding was ~2000g, and would have been closer to 2400g, had we planned for mechanical issues.

Read more here: https://www.strava.com/activities/4527655581

and here: https://blog.3t.bike/...estive-500-in-a-day/

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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Whats the drink rate on a bottle holding 400g of carbs.

If I sip (like a mouthful give or take) a bottle every 5 mins I consume one in 40-45 mins... so.. 9 or so gulps.

Are you sipping 400g bottle every 15 -30 mins and like... 1 water bottle an hour? Almost treating each mouthful like a gel... small sips.

I assume that 400g bottle last you... 3-4hrs

I always felt with super dense bottles nutrition density consumption and absorption would be harder to get consistently right over an effort.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [Mbellis5] [ In reply to ]
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Mbellis5 wrote:
Whats the drink rate on a bottle holding 400g of carbs.

If I sip (like a mouthful give or take) a bottle every 5 mins I consume one in 40-45 mins... so.. 9 or so gulps.

Are you sipping 400g bottle every 15 -30 mins and like... 1 water bottle an hour? Almost treating each mouthful like a gel... small sips.

I assume that 400g bottle last you... 3-4hrs

I always felt with super dense bottles nutrition density consumption and absorption would be harder to get consistently right over an effort.


For a 400g carb bottle: ~1/3 bottle per hour. Plus ~2/3 bottle water per hour. (1L bottles!)

Yep, treating the front bottle like a liquid-gel basically.

It took some practice to find out how much leeway I had for mistakes (overconsuming = stomach cramp).

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Last edited by: DrAlexHarrison: Jan 15, 21 12:10
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I tried this recipe today and it seemed to work out fine for a 4hr ride.

My standard for long rides was 60g of Gatorade scoops x 3 24oz bottles, with about a half teaspoon of potassium salt each. I usually end up having to fill up on water once and I’d buy a gatorade or coke if I’m out for over 4 hours. This is pretty clearly leaner on carbs and Calories but it usually works OK for me.

If I had to make a somewhat hasty judgement on today’s ride, I might say I felt stronger towards the last hour... but the bottom line is that I’ll default to your recipe (still adding potassium salt) from now on.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [codygo] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome! Happy to help.

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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Played with this today on a bike/run brick.
Bike was Blender on Sufferfest. Quite a fun session, but sprinting on roller, NFF.
2 bottles for that 100 mins. Both bottles 120g maltodextrine/dextrose 2:1. No gut issues, felt pretty good as a session.
Change kit, get out on 45-50 mins easy z2.
2*150ml squeeze bottles, each w 40 g of 2:1. Again, no gut issues, felt comfy all the way.

Will keep going with this mix (have several kg of MD...), but interested re effects of heat and actually needing hydration. Was 2c in the garage when I started, and by the end of the run had started to attempt to snow (and blowing a howling gale ). I did run in fleece tights, gloves, long tech top and xc ski jacket, with 2* buffs to stay warm!
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [altayloraus] [ In reply to ]
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Malto plus dex? Or malto plus fructose?

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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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DrAlexHarrison wrote:
mgreer wrote:
That's because maltodextrin isn't as sweet. Fructose is sweet, no matter what the source. I wonder how a 1:1 of maltodextrin and fructose compares to straight table sugar. FWIW, I find 6:1 maltodextrin to table sugar almost too sweet. I can't imagine what 90g of sugar in a regular bottle would taste like. That's roughly half a cup of sugar!


Sugar is sweet for sure. No getting around it. I find sugar more palatable than the flavor intensities of other beverages. Chase with water. I always have water onboard to chase.

Have yet to find a way to make upper limits of carb absorption happen without water to chase, especially since I'm often doing training sessions where I don't want to consume the upper limit of 1-1.2L fluid per hour.

Front bottle is always carbs+sodium+water. Back bottle always water.

I often have front bottle concentrations of 30-40% (300-400g/L). 140g of carbs per hour containing a minimum of 70g fructose is just hard to make not sweet. So, I ultra-concentrate the front bottle and chase with water most the time. This mostly applies to 2-5-hr rides in not-super-sweaty conditions, in my personal case.

Fun anecdote:
Wife did Rapha Festive 500 in a single effort. (310-mi ride) I prepped bottles.
Each bottle contains:
1.25 cups sugar (250g carbs)
1 scoop Gatorade (~60g carbs)
2 tsp sodium citrate (~2000mg sodium)
1/8th tsp caffeine powder (200mg caffeine)
Water

Not pictured: 6 more 1L bottles of water.


Pretty much the only thing that didn't go wrong during her attempt, was her nutrition/hydration. She drank all 5 + a small meal + coffee, off the bike every 62 miles, plus half a back-up one of mine once she started having to slow down due to mechanicals. She weighs ~63kg, fyi. Total carb consumption during the 25 hrs of riding was ~2000g, and would have been closer to 2400g, had we planned for mechanical issues.

Read more here: https://www.strava.com/activities/4527655581

and here: https://blog.3t.bike/...estive-500-in-a-day/

What would you recommend porportionately for a 500mL bottle? Or a bottle an hour?
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [quinnserfa] [ In reply to ]
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quinnserfa wrote:
DrAlexHarrison wrote:
Each bottle contains:
1.25 cups sugar (250g carbs)
1 scoop Gatorade (~60g carbs)
2 tsp sodium citrate (~2000mg sodium)
1/8th tsp caffeine powder (200mg caffeine)
Water

Not pictured: 6 more 1L bottles of water.
What would you recommend porportionately for a 500mL bottle? Or a bottle an hour?
Half of that. But, you probably want to be consuming more than that. Hence, we use larger bottles. 500mL bottles are tiny!

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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Makes sense, would you still consumer at a rate of a bottle an hour at 165 g of carbs? Also, what about the replenishment of calories during a ride?
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [quinnserfa] [ In reply to ]
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quinnserfa wrote:
Makes sense, would you still consumer at a rate of a bottle an hour at 165 g of carbs? Also, what about the replenishment of calories during a ride?
I'd limit consumption to 150g/hr for sure. And make sure you're also consuming a 500mL (or more) bottle of water with the 500mL carb bottle.

Not sure what you mean re: bolded text.

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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Dr. Hutchinson, great stuff. I have read through multiple posts and I must be too dense to get this. Is Gatorade added for flavor or is it there to provide something that cane sugar won't?
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [lonniecdams] [ In reply to ]
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I think you, and maybe others on Slowtwitch recently, may be confusing me, Dr. Alex Harrison, for Dr. Alex Hutchinson who is a prolific columnist and book author, but is not me. I think his PhD is in quantum computing and nanomechanics, but he's pretty adept in physiology and psychology and an accomplished athlete, too.

He's better written, and certainly more pleasing to the eye than I am, so I'll take any confusion as a compliment.

I could also be the one who is confused here so sorry if I'm putting my foot in my mouth. I could have sworn I saw this happen in another thread recently too. Maybe wishful thinking. ;)

Regardless, happy to continue helping folks where I can.

Gatorade is primarily added for flavor. It is used by some folks in larger proportions than for flavor alone, because they prefer a little closer to 2:1 ratio than 1:1 ratio for glucose:fructose. Although... Gatorade in AUS appears to be ~75% sucrose, so it's pretty close to 1:1 glucose:fructose itself. I have not seen sugar breakdown for Gatorade in USA officially. Gatorade markets that 2:1 is probably optimal when targeting 60-90g/hr carbs.

I propose they are wrong, and that they market that because that's the prevailing dogma in the field of endurance nutrition. I would bet/hope they know better, but suspect they don't care, and use sucrose because it's much cheaper, and more immediately palatable to most of the folks that drink their basic powder mix (non-endurance athletes or youth with lower durations of training.)

Some flavoring is important. Enjoyable flavoring drives consumption and when seeking maximum consumption during challenging efforts, minimizing further barriers to consumption is wise. Sucrose and sodium citrate both bring their own flavors to the table, and if consumed in isolation aren't very palatable to me. A small proportion of Gatorade or any other flavored endurance beverage fixes that for most folks.

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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Dr Harrison. My fault I apologize for my error. Thanks for being so understanding and professional about it too. Thanks for the help too.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [lonniecdams] [ In reply to ]
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Zero thanks needed for common courtesy for a very easy misunderstanding!

I include "Dr" in all my usernames at the suggestion of a friend of mine, purely for instant credibility on my academic expertise niches.

"Dr. Harrison" probably wears a suit or something. Dunno. I'm just a soigneur & wannabe preparer for my wife. Currently wearing tattered slippers & grease-covered running shorts in the garage of my RV..."Alex" feels more appropriate. :)

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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Dr. Harrison, I am curious on you take on nutrition for a 45 minute crit race. I rarely bring a full bottle, and use it more so for a dry mouth than nutrition itself. Good or bad? I saw you mention beetroot powder, and I have been experimenting with that as well, but struggle with the amount. I put a tablespoon or so in with a carnation instant breakfast drink to make it tolerable about 3 hours before my race, good or bad? My motto is, if I pee red it was enough, really have no clue and don't know the content of nitrate in the powder though. Would love to hear you suggestions for short intense racing. I am prone to kidney stones, and have noticed if I try to supplement beetroot several days in a row, my kidneys don't appreciate that. Thanks so much!
Last edited by: biker2035: Jul 9, 21 4:51
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [biker2035] [ In reply to ]
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If you notice any kidney response to beet root, I'd avoid. It's impossible to know nitrate content of the powder without lab testing.

Your approach sounds good for a 45min crit. Not much fueling needed, if any, in such a scenario. I'd be fueling actively during the warmup and maybe take 8-12oz of water with 20g carbs from Gatorade in it for the crit. Maybe even less Gatorade. 45min is short. If hot, though, I'd add 200-300mg sodium from sodium citrate and maybe make it closer to 16-20oz fluid.

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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Really helpful information, thank you for this.
Maybe you can help me out with the following.

Do you just use only the sodium citrate or do you use a combination of sodium citrate and sodium chloride, which is what I read is in most drinks or at least in most electrolytes addings.
And no potassium adding and/or magnesium?

Thanks,

Jeroen

Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [LordFarquuad] [ In reply to ]
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Dr.AlexHarrison has changed my nutritional life for endurance sport.... I literally have tried it all and nothing worked for me or was subpar for my power/goal requirements.

Here is my simple big batch recipe;

2lbs (907 grams) of Maltodextrin
1.6lbs (725 grams) of fructose powder
12,700mg (13grams) or more of Sodium Citrate
100-120 grams of Gatorade Powder mix (more if you like a lot of flavor, I use Blue).

I put all of this in a huge mixing bowl and set it on my kitchen aid blender on the lowest setting for 5-10 minutes and then I put it into a storage tote of some sort. You will want to experiment with "how much" of it you can take but some guys can get away with 100+ grams of carbs.

I having a weaker stomach get away with about 60-70grams of this mix per bottle per hour and it makes me feel like a rocket.

Thanks agan Dr. Alex!!!!!!

Edit: This is for a 1:.08 Glucose/Fructose to Maltodextrin mix
Last edited by: teddygram: Sep 15, 21 12:04
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [TRIPRO] [ In reply to ]
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TRIPRO wrote:
Really helpful information, thank you for this.
Maybe you can help me out with the following.

Do you just use only the sodium citrate or do you use a combination of sodium citrate and sodium chloride, which is what I read is in most drinks or at least in most electrolytes addings.
And no potassium adding and/or magnesium?

Thanks,

Jeroen
Just the sodium citrate. This is becoming a really common question and has now made its way into some slides I'm putting together for a YouTube series. :)

I posit that the primary (only) reason for magnesium in sports beverages is to convince folks like you and me to put our money in beverage retailers' bank accounts.

There are very few things I (or anyone) can say for certain in sport & sport nutrition, so I won't yet claim absolute certainty with regard to not adding potassium to beverages. If there is a benefit... it's impossibly hard to measure it. And there are tradeoffs (osmolarity, monetary cost, time cost, flavor, increased risk of clinical and non-clinically relevant hyponatremia), which lead me to believe that if there is a net benefit, it's outweighed by the first and last of the listed tradeoffs, even if the middle three don't matter to you.

I do have a 1kg bag of potassium citrate. I have helped my wife prep for multiple >24-hr events, and all her "A" races from 60min to 5 hours, along with all her training. She is my most important athlete I coach. I usually make her bottles on the days that count. I have gone through a couple kg of sodium citrate.

I have yet to open the bag of potassium citrate. That should tell you what I think about it.

You can use the following as a completely flexible and informal guide to my language here on ST: ;)

"I have a hunch" = 60:40
"I suspect" = 80:20
"I think" = 90:10
"I'm pretty sure" = 95:5
"I'm virtually certain" = 99:1
"I'm certain enough that it always informs my decisions with regard to Michelle's racing & training" = 99.5:0.5

Then there is "I'm certain enough to claim it as an absolute, publicly on ST and youtube."

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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
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teddygram wrote:
Dr.AlexHarrison has changed my nutritional life for endurance sport.... I literally have tried it all and nothing worked for me or was subpar for my power/goal requirements.

Here is my simple big batch recipe;

2lbs (907 grams) of Maltodextrin
1.6lbs (725 grams) of fructose powder
12,700mg (13grams) or more of Sodium Citrate
100-120 grams of Gatorade Powder mix (more if you like a lot of flavor, I use Blue).

I put all of this in a huge mixing bowl and set it on my kitchen aid blender on the lowest setting for 5-10 minutes and then I put it into a storage tote of some sort. You will want to experiment with "how much" of it you can take but some guys can get away with 100+ grams of carbs.

I having a weaker stomach get away with about 60-70grams of this mix per bottle per hour and it makes me feel like a rocket.

Thanks agan Dr. Alex!!!!!!

Edit: This is for a 1:.08 Glucose/Fructose to Maltodextrin mix
You're very welcome! Happy, and humbled honestly, to have helped. My pleasure.

Fun fact that might help further in the future. If you can routinely use this mix in training, there is a good chance that you will be able to increase it to 1:0.9 in the future, and target 75g/hr. Our guts are particularly adaptable to fructose. I still need to read more of the literature on gut adaptations but it looks like adaptation to fructose overload is pretty substantial. This adaptation tends to work against folks with obesity because it makes fructose pass the gut more easily and produce less total satiety, but for athletes who have not struggled with obesity, it's pure gut training gold.

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