From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds

Nov 29, 18 4:12

Post #1 of 49 (4767 views)

So swimming is obviously waaaaaay bigger in the US (& Canada) than in the UK and perhaps we don't find out about this stuff in day to day sporting life.

But people talk about times on here (particularly top end speed, 50's & 100s) that genuinely seem to be on another planet to a MOP AOS (okay, I can do sub 60mins in a sea/wetsuit IM but have never swum faster than 1.25 100s (that's short course M (in the UK we don't even have to mention it, almost without exception it will be 25m pool here).

Maybe if I am doing a 25 or 50 I might be a smidge faster but no more.

I can sort of get my head around a tall long limbed big engined Phelps swimming at a speed I can't comprehend but when kids do it I start to get lost.

How do they do it? What are they really doing differently that means they can move through the water at almost twice the speed of a fit moderately coordinated adult with a broadly reasonably stroke (nothing glaring wrong)

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 4:22

Post #2 of 49 (4732 views)

You're a sub 1h swimmer and can't break 1:25 short course m?
That's sounds weird...My 100yd PR is 58.2s (1:03 scm equivalent) and my IM swim PR is 58:01. My 70.3 splits are in the 27-29 range.

What's your CdA?

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [trailerhouse] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 4:27

Post #3 of 49 (4720 views)

Yup - it is sea/wetsuit but I have 3 under my belt sub 60.

I guess I might be able to do 1.23/24 as one off max effort. The flip side is that when fit I can swim 1.35 until the cows come home.

My question really wasn't so much about me, more about what gets you from 1/20ish to sub 1.00 when it clearly isn't strength. Lots of people with reasonable stroke mechanics are still only swimming 1.20+ so what is making the difference?

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 4:32

Post #4 of 49 (4692 views)

skill

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Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 4:38

Post #5 of 49 (4674 views)

mechanics obviously but also include things such as: diving from the blocks, proper flip turns and underwaters - these things are huge especially in short course.

ericMPro wrote:

skill

What's your CdA?

Last edited by: trailerhouse: Nov 29, 18 4:38

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 4:40

Post #6 of 49 (4664 views)

Green hollow bones are more buoyant?

All muscles still full length allowing full joint range?

Are lungs big in proportion to developed bodies?

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 5:23

Post #7 of 49 (4539 views)

tuckandgo wrote:

So swimming is obviously waaaaaay bigger in the US (& Canada) than in the UK and perhaps we don't find out about this stuff in day to day sporting life.

But people talk about times on here (particularly top end speed, 50's & 100s) that genuinely seem to be on another planet to a MOP AOS (okay, I can do sub 60mins in a sea/wetsuit IM but have never swum faster than 1.25 100s (that's short course M (in the UK we don't even have to mention it, almost without exception it will be 25m pool here).

Maybe if I am doing a 25 or 50 I might be a smidge faster but no more.

I can sort of get my head around a tall long limbed big engined Phelps swimming at a speed I can't comprehend but when kids do it I start to get lost.

How do they do it? What are they really doing differently that means they can move through the water at almost twice the speed of a fit moderately coordinated adult with a broadly reasonably stroke (nothing glaring wrong)

Big thing they do differently is that they can kick. Not many AOS swimmers can kick.

Another thing is that although you may not have anything "glaring (sic) wrong", the subtleties matter. It's not just the form, it's about where you apply the power.

and yet another thing is that they practice going VERY fast, and they swim WAY more than you do. When was the last time you did a set of all-out 25's from the blocks?

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 5:32

Post #8 of 49 (4503 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

tuckandgo wrote:

So swimming is obviously waaaaaay bigger in the US (& Canada) than in the UK and perhaps we don't find out about this stuff in day to day sporting life.

But people talk about times on here (particularly top end speed, 50's & 100s) that genuinely seem to be on another planet to a MOP AOS (okay, I can do sub 60mins in a sea/wetsuit IM but have never swum faster than 1.25 100s (that's short course M (in the UK we don't even have to mention it, almost without exception it will be 25m pool here).

Maybe if I am doing a 25 or 50 I might be a smidge faster but no more.

I can sort of get my head around a tall long limbed big engined Phelps swimming at a speed I can't comprehend but when kids do it I start to get lost.

How do they do it? What are they really doing differently that means they can move through the water at almost twice the speed of a fit moderately coordinated adult with a broadly reasonably stroke (nothing glaring wrong)

Big thing they do differently is that they can kick. Not many AOS swimmers can kick.

Another thing is that although you may not have anything "glaring (sic) wrong", the subtleties matter. It's not just the form, it's about where you apply the power.

and yet another thing is that they practice going VERY fast, and they swim WAY more than you do. When was the last time you did a set of all-out 25's from the blocks?

Thanks.

Okay, this is interesting to me. So the kick makes a significant difference. Secondly, and really interestingly 'where you apply the power'. That's the first time I have heard of timing/position when applying the power in swimming? I am sure it is the case but it's never mentioned in tri swimming stuff. Can you expand at all?

To the person who did 'sic' - glaring is correct english.

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 5:41

Post #9 of 49 (4470 views)

It should be "glaringly wrong" or "glaring".

You're welcome ;-)

Feel free to correct my english anytime, I know I usually write terrible.

As far as power production goes, one of the things that gets emphasized a lot is to accelerate the hand through the pull. At the very top of the stroke, there's no leverage there (but you still want that extension for good streamlining).

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 5:44

Post #10 of 49 (4455 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

It should be "glaringly wrong" or "glaring".

You're welcome ;-)

Feel free to correct my english anytime, I know I usually write terrible.

As far as power production goes, one of the things that gets emphasized a lot is to accelerate the hand through the pull. At the very top of the stroke, there's no leverage there (but you still want that extension for good streamlining).

Ha, touche.

And thank you. I'm becoming more and more convinced that the mechanics of swimming have significant parallels to those of rowing (the blade entering, through, and exiting the water being the arm in the stroke)

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 5:49

Post #11 of 49 (4431 views)

I'm not a rower, but my limited understanding of that sport tells me that you're on the right track if you think of it that way.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 7:47

Post #12 of 49 (4234 views)

tuckandgo wrote:

JasoninHalifax wrote:

tuckandgo wrote:

So swimming is obviously waaaaaay bigger in the US (& Canada) than in the UK and perhaps we don't find out about this stuff in day to day sporting life.

But people talk about times on here (particularly top end speed, 50's & 100s) that genuinely seem to be on another planet to a MOP AOS (okay, I can do sub 60mins in a sea/wetsuit IM but have never swum faster than 1.25 100s (that's short course M (in the UK we don't even have to mention it, almost without exception it will be 25m pool here).

Maybe if I am doing a 25 or 50 I might be a smidge faster but no more.

I can sort of get my head around a tall long limbed big engined Phelps swimming at a speed I can't comprehend but when kids do it I start to get lost.

How do they do it? What are they really doing differently that means they can move through the water at almost twice the speed of a fit moderately coordinated adult with a broadly reasonably stroke (nothing glaring wrong)

Big thing they do differently is that they can kick. Not many AOS swimmers can kick.

Another thing is that although you may not have anything "glaring (sic) wrong", the subtleties matter. It's not just the form, it's about where you apply the power.

and yet another thing is that they practice going VERY fast, and they swim WAY more than you do. When was the last time you did a set of all-out 25's from the blocks?

Thanks.

Okay, this is interesting to me. So the kick makes a significant difference. Secondly, and really interestingly 'where you apply the power'. That's the first time I have heard of timing/position when applying the power in swimming? I am sure it is the case but it's never mentioned in tri swimming stuff. Can you expand at all?

To the person who did 'sic' - glaring is correct english.

The kick and the power application are also related. You can probably have a pretty noodle relaxed body and mediocre timing and swim a 1:25 100m.
To go 1:00 your body needs to be moving as a unit for propulsion, both in terms of generating force and maintaining Hull shape.

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 7:52

Post #13 of 49 (4219 views)

Is that 1:25 "in a workout from the wall and I swear I'm trying hard" or "in a meet from the blocks shaved tapered and race suited and someone's going to have to fish me out of the pool after because my arms will be jelly"? There's a big difference.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 8:06

Post #14 of 49 (4161 views)

I would also draw parallels to throwing a baseball. To maximize distance you utilize (i.e. rotate) your entire body - hips, core, and shoulders to transfer force into the ball. If you stand still and just throw with your arm that ball isn't going anywhere. What separates a normal person from an MLB pitcher?

Fast swimmers also have "skill" to feel and maximize catch as well as this well-timed hip rotation and kick to maximize force transfer through the pull.

Of course, then you have to swim a lot to be able to power through the water without fatiguing. And then you need to be as "hydro" as possible to overcome a fluid 800 times denser than air.

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [Toby] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 8:18

Post #15 of 49 (4118 views)

Toby wrote:

Is that 1:25 "in a workout from the wall and I swear I'm trying hard" or "in a meet from the blocks shaved tapered and race suited and someone's going to have to fish me out of the pool after because my arms will be jelly"? There's a big difference.

Hahah the former. And I am sure I have a noodle body and poor timing although I try not to have both.

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 10:14

Post #16 of 49 (3965 views)

"terribly"( needs an adverb not adjective).

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 10:18

Post #17 of 49 (3951 views)

The age group swimming kids swim 8-10 times per week with sessions of 5000-6000m with a coach monitoring technique and progress. If you do that for a year you will likely be able to swim low 50s for your IM without a wetsuit. Doesn't leave much time and energy for biking and running though.

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 10:25

Post #18 of 49 (3918 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

Feel free to correct my english anytime, I know I usually write terrible.

Quote:

You mean you write terribly or you are a terrible writer;)

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 10:27

Post #19 of 49 (3904 views)

DFW_Tri wrote:

JasoninHalifax wrote:

Feel free to correct my english anytime, I know I usually write terrible.

Quote:

You mean you write terribly or you are a terrible writer;)

terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 10:29

Post #20 of 49 (3890 views)

tuckandgo wrote:

I'm becoming more and more convinced that the mechanics of swimming have significant parallels to those of rowing (the blade entering, through, and exiting the water being the arm in the stroke)

Parallels, I would agree. Well, I think I would agree. I don't actually know proper swim technique but I *think* the idea of the catch, pull, push, and follow throw are similar in both sports. But, regardless, as a former rower, that has not translated into any actual swim speed for me.

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [trailerhouse] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 10:31

Post #21 of 49 (3873 views)

trailerhouse wrote:

You're a sub 1h swimmer and can't break 1:25 short course m?
That's sounds weird...My 100yd PR is 58.2s (1:03 scm equivalent) and my IM swim PR is 58:01. My 70.3 splits are in the 27-29 range.

Yeah well, my IM swim PR is 52 minutes and I can't break 1:20/100m...

...

...

Yeah it was Chattanooga...

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [hadukla] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 10:33

Post #22 of 49 (3865 views)

hadukla wrote:

trailerhouse wrote:

You're a sub 1h swimmer and can't break 1:25 short course m?
That's sounds weird...My 100yd PR is 58.2s (1:03 scm equivalent) and my IM swim PR is 58:01. My 70.3 splits are in the 27-29 range.

Yeah well, my IM swim PR is 52 minutes and I can't break 1:20/100m...

...

...

Yeah it was Chattanooga...

I think a Doritos bag swam a 48 at IMChoo...

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 10:34

Post #23 of 49 (3860 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

hadukla wrote:

trailerhouse wrote:

You're a sub 1h swimmer and can't break 1:25 short course m?
That's sounds weird...My 100yd PR is 58.2s (1:03 scm equivalent) and my IM swim PR is 58:01. My 70.3 splits are in the 27-29 range.

Yeah well, my IM swim PR is 52 minutes and I can't break 1:20/100m...

...

...

Yeah it was Chattanooga...

I think a Doritos bag swam a 48 at IMChoo...

I never said I was fast! :) Plus doritos has great form

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 10:34

Post #24 of 49 (3858 views)

DFW_Tri wrote:

tuckandgo wrote:

I'm becoming more and more convinced that the mechanics of swimming have significant parallels to those of rowing (the blade entering, through, and exiting the water being the arm in the stroke)

Parallels, I would agree. Well, I think I would agree. I don't actually know proper swim technique but I *think* the idea of the catch, pull, push, and follow throw are similar in both sports. But, regardless, as a former rower, that has not translated into any actual swim speed for me.

Ha, me neither.

I was thinking in terms of the 'subtly' of it. You want a fast catch that doesn't upset the forward momentum of the boat. Once it is properly locked you want to accelerate through (without the blade at just the right depth) before cleanly exiting the water at the finish. If you screw the catch up you'll knock the run of the boat, if your finishes aren't clean you'll shut down the acceleration and boat speed you gained through the drive, etc.

Re: From MOP to 'another planet' swim speeds [sch340] [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 18 10:47

Post #25 of 49 (3826 views)

sch340 wrote:

Fast swimmers also have "skill" to feel and maximize catch as well as this well-timed hip rotation and kick to maximize force transfer through the pull.

Of course, then you have to swim a lot to be able to power through the water without fatiguing.

I've been playing around with this for a year or so, but I can't seem to get the timing quite right.

The problem seems to be that some hip rotation happens when driving the extension, but that leaves a pretty short extension/catch if I want to carry the momentum into the pull.

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