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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
OP here - this thread turned out EXACTLY the way I thought it would.

Lol. Who didn't see it turning out this way?

Thanks for the recommendation. Got the book after reading your original post. Found it to be an interesting read.

To be honest, I am skeptical on some points so I'm going to do some digging if for no other reason than to increase my own understanding. He cites a lot of studies that seem to turn CICO on its head and I'm hesitant to accept his argument without picking at the threads a little. All the same, the notion that obesity is multifactorial makes sense is definitely an interesting point for launching off from.

Personally, things got out of control for a couple of years with the second kid/new job/new house so looking to reset and get back into the mix. Not sure I'll adopt this approach wholesale but definitely good info to consider.

Thanks again for recommending (and starting this thread!).
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I haven't read any books on diet, but I have managed to lose approximately 8 lbs in the last month. No diets, no counting calories. no eliminating anything (although coincidentally I haven't had any alcohol since January), just better food selection.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [Toefuzz] [ In reply to ]
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Toefuzz wrote:
I’ll have to think about that... I know I had a double serving of broccoli at a restaurant for lunch that looked like a triple serving and the digestive results weren’t pretty!

There's a separate thread for that

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=5580857#p5580857

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
I haven't read any books on diet, but I have managed to lose approximately 8 lbs in the last month. No diets, no counting calories. no eliminating anything (although coincidentally I haven't had any alcohol since January), just better food selection.

That appears to be a contradiction
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [fruit thief] [ In reply to ]
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fruit thief wrote:
My view's pretty simple.

People get thin when food is scarce. Human history, with war and famine, shows us that.

When food isn't scare, we need to control our heads and our hands, or get fat.

And that is EXACTLY what a pan-European 10+ year experiment involving circa 20 million people revealed too...

WW2. Putting all the horror, death, murder, genocide, destruction etc to one side, and taking the UK as an example... limited meat, eggs, butter and bread, due to rationing (til the mid 1950s for some produce) but lots of home grown fruit and veg, = the heathiest people by the 1950s and 60s to grace the country. And its been downhill since then as suger and processed foods came easily and cheaply, coupled with an adversion to excercise across the majority of the populus.
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [fruit thief] [ In reply to ]
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fruit thief wrote:
My view's pretty simple.

People get thin when food is scarce. Human history, with war and famine, shows us that.

When food isn't scare, we need to control our heads and our hands, or get fat.


There's plenty of evidence that that isn't the whole story, though. The Japanese are largely a slender people, but have no scarcity of food in modern times. And I think if you asked them what they were doing to "control your heads and hands" to not get fat they'd be really confused by the question. They just eat.

The Pacific Islanders were a slender people even with food surplus. Then, then shot up to >50% obesity rates almost overnight when introduced to some Western food products.

So I think food composition and quality play enormous factors. It's still "using your head," but just to select quality foods rather than exerting some weird notion that you need "will power" to not get fat. Most thin people I know exert little effort on will power.
Last edited by: trail: Apr 1, 19 15:39
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [BobAjobb] [ In reply to ]
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BobAjobb wrote:

And that is EXACTLY what a pan-European 10+ year experiment involving circa 20 million people revealed too...

WW2. Putting all the horror, death, murder, genocide, destruction etc to one side, and taking the UK as an example... limited meat, eggs, butter and bread, due to rationing (til the mid 1950s for some produce) but lots of home grown fruit and veg, = the heathiest people by the 1950s and 60s to grace the country. And its been downhill since then as suger and processed foods came easily and cheaply, coupled with an adversion to excercise across the majority of the populus.

I think it's worthwhile distinguishing to the effect scarcity has on food composition vs. actual deprivation of available calories (vs. choosing to have a small daily deprivation to lose weight) Of course you'll get thin when starved. But I'd bet that if you feed people a diet of mostly vegetables and mostly unprocessed foods, but put absolutely no limits on quantity, they'll have a lot of trouble getting fat even if they tried.
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I'm still waiting for the OP to explain why I was able to go from 5'9" and a 32BMI to a 22 BMI when I was 23 and have kept it off and at a near constant weight for 19 years by doing nothing except counting calories. According to OP it's unpossible.
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [marklemcd] [ In reply to ]
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marklemcd wrote:
I'm still waiting for the OP to explain why I was able to go from 5'9" and a 32BMI to a 22 BMI when I was 23 and have kept it off and at a near constant weight for 19 years by doing nothing except counting calories. According to OP it's unpossible.

It's impossible to do nothing except count calories. You have to select food composition. And food timing. Even if you thought you were just "counting calories" I bet at times you decided to cut down on calories by eating less often (food timing) or by forgoing something that was calorie dense (food composition).

I agree the language in the OP is over-the-top. But I'd bet that if we took all the skinny people in the world, some infinitesimal fraction counts calories. And if we take all the fat people, I bet the vast majority eats shit processed food. I facepalm every time I go to Walmart and see the food choices being made by obese people.
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [trail] [ In reply to ]
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The French are skinny and they eat feasts at 10PM...so there's that.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
marklemcd wrote:
I'm still waiting for the OP to explain why I was able to go from 5'9" and a 32BMI to a 22 BMI when I was 23 and have kept it off and at a near constant weight for 19 years by doing nothing except counting calories. According to OP it's unpossible.

It's impossible to do nothing except count calories. You have to select food composition. And food timing. Even if you thought you were just "counting calories" I bet at times you decided to cut down on calories by eating less often (food timing) or by forgoing something that was calorie dense (food composition).

I agree the language in the OP is over-the-top. But I'd bet that if we took all the skinny people in the world, some infinitesimal fraction counts calories. And if we take all the fat people, I bet the vast majority eats shit processed food. I facepalm every time I go to Walmart and see the food choices being made by obese people.

Counting calories is everything. You could have a diet of pure sugar and loose weight so long as you counted the calories. Food composition and timing is maybe 5% of the equation.

How many fat people do you see in food deprived countries???
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
marklemcd wrote:

I agree the language in the OP is over-the-top. But I'd bet that if we took all the skinny people in the world, some infinitesimal fraction counts calories. And if we take all the fat people, I bet the vast majority eats shit processed food. I face palm every time I go to Walmart and see the food choices being made by obese people.

Would that be like a nice salad with about 2000 calories of dressing and a Diet Coke?! :) "I don't understand why I can't lose weight when all I'm eating are salads and diet sodas!!"
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [MRid] [ In reply to ]
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MRid wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
I haven't read any books on diet, but I have managed to lose approximately 8 lbs in the last month. No diets, no counting calories. no eliminating anything (although coincidentally I haven't had any alcohol since January), just better food selection.

That appears to be a contradiction

Not really. Eliminating things implies that you are actively avoiding certain foods. I simply haven't had any alcohol (and I didn't drink much before January either, so it really isn't a major change). I'm not avoiding it. Similarly, I haven't had any blueberries since December. I would have them if I felt like it. I just haven't wanted them.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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dunno wrote:


Counting calories is everything. You could have a diet of pure sugar and loose weight so long as you counted the calories.


I disagree. It's neither a necessary practice to lose weight, it's annoying and cumbersome to do, and plenty of people lose weight without doing it. I don't know why people get so emotionally attached to the notion of "calorie counting."

Not that I said "calorie counting" not that weight loss requires calorie regulation. Calorie counting it just a tool, and not a very effective one.
Last edited by: trail: Apr 2, 19 11:24
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, but alcohol and blueberries tend to have different effects on one's weight. I didn't mean to suggest you were being dishonest, just that its a pretty common phenomenon that when people give up alcohol (even non-intentionally) they tend to lose weight.
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [MRid] [ In reply to ]
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MRid wrote:
Yeah, but alcohol and blueberries tend to have different effects on one's weight. I didn't mean to suggest you were being dishonest, just that its a pretty common phenomenon that when people give up alcohol (even non-intentionally) they tend to lose weight.

you wouldn't believe how many blueberries I can eat in a sitting....

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
dunno wrote:


Counting calories is everything. You could have a diet of pure sugar and loose weight so long as you counted the calories.


I disagree. It's neither a necessary practice to lose weight, it's annoying and cumbersome to do, and plenty of people lose weight without doing it. I don't know why people get so emotionally attached to the notion of "calorie counting."

Not that I said "calorie counting" not that weight loss requires calorie regulation. Calorie counting it just a tool, and not a very effective one.

Counting calories might not be 'necessary' but having nfi about calorie consumption and expenditure would be the number one reason people fail at loosing weight
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [runner66] [ In reply to ]
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runner66 wrote:
Diet Coke has no calories, so that would not add to the calories found in the salad dressing right? I realize diet soda is not a healthy choice, but not because of calories.

That's the point -- there are no calories. They convince themselves they are dieting because the salad is LOW cal, the diet coke is NO cal, but they ignore that how much salad dressing they are using and turn their salad into a fat laden, high calorie mess.
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
dunno wrote:


Counting calories is everything. You could have a diet of pure sugar and loose weight so long as you counted the calories.


I disagree. It's neither a necessary practice to lose weight, it's annoying and cumbersome to do, and plenty of people lose weight without doing it. I don't know why people get so emotionally attached to the notion of "calorie counting."

Not that I said "calorie counting" not that weight loss requires calorie regulation. Calorie counting it just a tool, and not a very effective one.

It works like a champ for me every - single - time! It's not difficult at all, just use something like MyFitnessPal. And if you aren't lying about your eating and your exercise then it is 100% effective - at least for me. However, I'm not emotionally attached to it; I only know that it works. If you have something that works for you then by all means use it.
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
trail wrote:
dunno wrote:


Counting calories is everything. You could have a diet of pure sugar and loose weight so long as you counted the calories.


I disagree. It's neither a necessary practice to lose weight, it's annoying and cumbersome to do, and plenty of people lose weight without doing it. I don't know why people get so emotionally attached to the notion of "calorie counting."

Not that I said "calorie counting" not that weight loss requires calorie regulation. Calorie counting it just a tool, and not a very effective one.

It works like a champ for me every - single - time! It's not difficult at all, just use something like MyFitnessPal. And if you aren't lying about your eating and your exercise then it is 100% effective - at least for me. However, I'm not emotionally attached to it; I only know that it works. If you have something that works for you then by all means use it.

People don't like counting calories because they dontike being slapped in the face with reality. It's much easier to blame their hormones than to admit all the snacks the forgot or the increased portion sizes etc.

At the end of the day you can't make something (fat) out of thin air. It needs to come from calories.
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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dunno wrote:

Counting calories might not be 'necessary' but having nfi about calorie consumption and expenditure would be the number one reason people fail at loosing weight

Semantics, but I'd argue a little differently. There's no question that you have to run at a net calorie deficit to lose weight.

But the argument is about what levers of behavior modification are the most effective at achieving that calorie deficit in a sustainable way.

One lever is to spend time every day estimating calorie expenditure and calorie intake and then to make sure that there's an estimated deficit Apparently some people like doing that. But even then I'd argue they're considering food quality and timing as well. Once you regulate calorie intake you're forced to make other decisions. You don't just eat normally and then stop as soon as you reach your daily limit. That'd be dumb to stop eating like at noon. You ration over time. You select foods that are more satisfying rather than drinking a lot of sugar. You don't "just count."

I've found that *just* considering food quality and timing alone is fine for me. I tried "MyFitnessPal" and life is too damned short for logging every damn thing with vague estimates of calories and expenditure. Screw that. The science also suggests that explicit calorie counting isn't that helpful.

But for those it works for, great.
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
dunno wrote:


Counting calories might not be 'necessary' but having nfi about calorie consumption and expenditure would be the number one reason people fail at loosing weight


Semantics, but I'd argue a little differently. There's no question that you have to run at a net calorie deficit to lose weight.

But the argument is about what levers of behavior modification are the most effective at achieving that calorie deficit in a sustainable way.

One lever is to spend time every day estimating calorie expenditure and calorie intake and then to make sure that there's an estimated deficit Apparently some people like doing that. But even then I'd argue they're considering food quality and timing as well. Once you regulate calorie intake you're forced to make other decisions. You don't just eat normally and then stop as soon as you reach your daily limit. That'd be dumb to stop eating like at noon. You ration over time. You select foods that are more satisfying rather than drinking a lot of sugar. You don't "just count."

I've found that *just* considering food quality and timing alone is fine for me. I tried "MyFitnessPal" and life is too damned short for logging every damn thing with vague estimates of calories and expenditure. Screw that. The science also suggests that explicit calorie counting isn't that helpful.

But for those it works for, great.

I can tell your the type that likes to needlessly argue.

So, how does someone know if they are in calorie deficit unless they count their calories....yeah Im sure guess work is a much more effective 'lever' than spending two seconds on an app...
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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dunno wrote:
trail wrote:
dunno wrote:


Counting calories might not be 'necessary' but having nfi about calorie consumption and expenditure would be the number one reason people fail at loosing weight


Semantics, but I'd argue a little differently. There's no question that you have to run at a net calorie deficit to lose weight.

But the argument is about what levers of behavior modification are the most effective at achieving that calorie deficit in a sustainable way.

One lever is to spend time every day estimating calorie expenditure and calorie intake and then to make sure that there's an estimated deficit Apparently some people like doing that. But even then I'd argue they're considering food quality and timing as well. Once you regulate calorie intake you're forced to make other decisions. You don't just eat normally and then stop as soon as you reach your daily limit. That'd be dumb to stop eating like at noon. You ration over time. You select foods that are more satisfying rather than drinking a lot of sugar. You don't "just count."

I've found that *just* considering food quality and timing alone is fine for me. I tried "MyFitnessPal" and life is too damned short for logging every damn thing with vague estimates of calories and expenditure. Screw that. The science also suggests that explicit calorie counting isn't that helpful.

But for those it works for, great.

I can tell your the type that likes to needlessly argue.

So, how does someone know if they are in calorie deficit unless they count their calories....yeah Im sure guess work is a much more effective 'lever' than spending two seconds on an app...

It’s pretty easy to know if you are in a calorie deficit if you aren’t counting calories.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: For all those trying to lose weight, you really have to read this book by a legit MD going after ALL the diet myths [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:

It’s pretty easy to know if you are in a calorie deficit if you aren’t counting calories.

How so? With experience sure, but for most people they have absolutely NO idea how many calories they have eaten in a day, or if they are in deficit.

Reminds me of a fat lady I used to work with-she would skip breakfast and lunch and then eat a packet of chips, two chocolate bars with a can of coke in the afternoon and then go home and eat a bowl of ice cream after dinner.

In her mind she had 'starved' herself all day and only eaten a couple of snacks and one meal. If she had an idea of calories should would have known her 'snacks' were almost 1,000 calories! That's a couple of very nice sized meals.
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