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Re: FTP long time stuck [T-wrecks] [ In reply to ]
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T-wrecks wrote:
RichardL wrote:
Conky wrote:
You’re correct, my apologies... I use my CP-20 then because I have not ever tested a true FTP and taking 95% of a CP-20 is inaccurate.


Why don't you do a 2x20-minute session back-to-back without the break in between and use that value as your FTP? That would be more accurate than taking 95% of CP20. Most cyclists can do 2x20' with little hardship provided that their FTP is set fairly accurately.


Isn't that just a single 40 minute interval?

Exactly. It's a mental trick to make it easier to attempt for most people since most can do 2x20'.
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Re: FTP long time stuck [RichardL] [ In reply to ]
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Why not do the 20 minute test as described in 'the book'?
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Re: FTP long time stuck [IamSpartacus] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like you're mainly doing structured training.

If that's the case, then I would add in a hard *worlds* type group ride with roadies. I think you'll find that the motivation to hang on to the group will push your limits beyond what you think you can hold.

The one bad thing about only doing structured power workouts is that you go into the workout with a preconceived limitation of what you can handle. And if you aren't willing to risk failure on these workouts every once in a while, you can get stale. With a group ride, the motivation of not getting dropped outweighs the fear of blowing up...and because you're not really monitoring your power as much, you are giving your body a chance to actually max yourself out without a mental limitation blocking you.
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Re: FTP long time stuck [IvarAlmere] [ In reply to ]
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IvarAlmere wrote:
Why not do the 20 minute test as described in 'the book'?

Because FTP is not 95% of 20-minute for some people. It could be anywhere between 88% and 96%. The longer the test duration, the more accurate the result. Ideally you would want to do a 40K TT.
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Re: FTP long time stuck [RichardL] [ In reply to ]
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RichardL wrote:
IvarAlmere wrote:
Why not do the 20 minute test as described in 'the book'?


Because FTP is not 95% of 20-minute for some people. It could be anywhere between 88% and 96%. The longer the test duration, the more accurate the result. Ideally you would want to do a 40K TT.

40K is still just an approximation, especially for fast people. I recommend muscle biopsies and blood draws. During every training ride to be sure you're in the right zone.
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Re: FTP long time stuck [T-wrecks] [ In reply to ]
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Seriously. Not everyone is a hobbyist exercise physiologist.

Back on topic:

Hammer rides are good, but my best ones still have less “power intervals” total minutes than a structured workout.

Let the hammer ride be the “dessert”. Not the main course. It’s a good gauge of whatcha got.

Just IMO.

Hammers aren’t all brute force, choose wisely.
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Re: FTP long time stuck [IamSpartacus] [ In reply to ]
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I remember - and I could be wrong - that the traditional base workouts in TR said something about being useful to do if you are stuck in a rut. I just read the description of them and it says that you will need 10 hours available to train that... so yeah, you might have to reduce your time either on swimming or running.
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Re: FTP long time stuck [RichardL] [ In reply to ]
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RichardL wrote:
IvarAlmere wrote:
Why not do the 20 minute test as described in 'the book'?


Because FTP is not 95% of 20-minute for some people. It could be anywhere between 88% and 96%. The longer the test duration, the more accurate the result. Ideally you would want to do a 40K TT.

Are you guys really doing this? There has never been a better moment for the search function. Ever.

Professional Athlete: http://jordancheyne.wordpress.com/ http://www.strava.com/athletes/145340

Coaching Services:http://www.peakformcoaching.com/

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Re: FTP long time stuck [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
Hammer rides are good, but my best ones still have less “power intervals” total minutes than a structured workout.

Let the hammer ride be the “dessert”. Not the main course. It’s a good gauge of whatcha got

Agree with that. I'm currently doing a bike focus, doing indoor sweetspot rides 3-4 days/week, a midweek 90 minutes hammer ride and a weekend 3-4 hour group ride. Also racing about every 3 weeks, sometimes instead of the long group ride if it's a long race.

Seems to be a good mix. Getting in lots of volume at sweetspot intensities to build the base, but the group rides are pushing me to levels that I would never have the motivation to go to riding indoors on my own.
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Re: FTP long time stuck [IamSpartacus] [ In reply to ]
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A steady 10-15W progression year over year as some are suggesting in this thread is actually very rare unless you're starting from the very bottom, i.e., an almost totally untrained state.

Why?

Because provided that you already do structured training at least 7 hours per week on average, in 2-3 years most if not all the people hit their limiter (sometimes several of them), which is then the main reason for their power to plateau.

For some, it is the aerobic system - these are the ones who would respond to higher mileage.
For some, it is VO2 level efforts; these would respond to a better polarized or reverse polarized approach.

However, from what I have seen, these two groups are the minority.

I've been there several years - with my power also remaining quite stable, but never improving dramatically, I've tried both mileage, various intervals, winter crosstraining, polarization, time crunched and more approaches. While some of them have netted me PB's on power for durations up to 20 minutes, the gains (peaks) have been very short-lived, never extending more than a month during the season and never repeatable during the the same season.

Thus, what recently more and more coaches have stressed (especially if you're 35 years or older): for most of people (cyclists) the biggest limiter is strength and muscular endurance. What's most important, this limiter translates not only to lack of improvement in absolute power, but also to ability to sustain anything above Z2 efforts for extended periods of time. Personally, I'm almost a perfect example for this - I can Z2 all day long with minimal HR drift, but add some more intensity at the very beginning, and this leaves dramatic impact on my ability to create Z3 efforts a couple of hours later.

My suggestion, therefore would be: hit the gym in winter for some cycling-specific strength training program of at least 6 weeks and then see what happens. 4 out of 5 cyclists, who have never done that before, would see notable improvements.

----------------------------
Need more W/CdA.
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Re: FTP long time stuck [mrlobber] [ In reply to ]
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mrlobber wrote:
A steady 10-15W progression year over year as some are suggesting in this thread is actually very rare unless you're starting from the very bottom, i.e., an almost totally untrained state.

My suggestion, therefore would be: hit the gym in winter for some cycling-specific strength training program of at least 6 weeks and then see what happens. 4 out of 5 cyclists, who have never done that before, would see notable improvements.

I agree with you. Thinking that 10-15w gains (or more) are going to go on for more than a few years in someone with some training background is not realistic (nor helpful).

What kind of strenght exercices do you recommend?
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Re: FTP long time stuck [mrlobber] [ In reply to ]
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interesting take, thank you. And thanks to all the replies, i have a good idea of some offseason work i can do now. Handy link to the Hunter Allen article too, cheers!
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Re: FTP long time stuck [T-wrecks] [ In reply to ]
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T-wrecks wrote:
40K is still just an approximation, especially for fast people.

Yes, it is still an approximation, but it's a darn good one. Duration for FTP is not defined to be "exactly" 60 minutes. I use FTP to pace 40K time trials, so it works perfectly for me.
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Re: FTP long time stuck [RichardL] [ In reply to ]
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Jesus. It was a joke. Have you ever had a muscle core taken? Imagine, if you will, taking a straw out of your next gin and tonic and jamming it into your quad while you're riding. But at least they can get the blood that same way instead of the ear/finger pricks.
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Re: FTP long time stuck [mrlobber] [ In reply to ]
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mrlobber wrote:
I can Z2 all day long with minimal HR drift, but add some more intensity at the very beginning, and this leaves dramatic impact on my ability to create Z3 efforts a couple of hours later.

My suggestion, therefore would be: hit the gym in winter for some cycling-specific strength training program of at least 6 weeks and then see what happens. 4 out of 5 cyclists, who have never done that before, would see notable improvements.


I think if you read the first part of this quote your training solution to make some drastic gains is staring you right in the face. The gym could be a solution but I'd re-read and think about the line above it as the 99% solution.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: FTP long time stuck [SteveM] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with this idea as well. I’m in the midst of the TrainerRoad mid volume IM plan and although feel stronger I cannot move the needle off the last FTP test 6 months ago. I believe I’ve built more durability and endurance but not the top end power up over 300w for sustained efforts. Perhaps will change moving into the build and specialty phases, I’m just a week into the build phase.
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Re: FTP long time stuck [Golfman09] [ In reply to ]
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Golfman09 wrote:
I agree with this idea as well. I’m in the midst of the TrainerRoad mid volume IM plan and although feel stronger I cannot move the needle off the last FTP test 6 months ago. I believe I’ve built more durability and endurance but not the top end power up over 300w for sustained efforts. Perhaps will change moving into the build and specialty phases, I’m just a week into the build phase.


6 months of TR base training? Seems like an awful long time for that.

My FTP didn't budge at all during TR base training, not enough intensity, as it's base training. Def went up over build. Freeking hard as heck workouts as well during build.
Last edited by: lightheir: Feb 15, 19 11:17
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Re: FTP long time stuck [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I had a solid month of part time training with the Christmas season and a move. When lining up the training plans I went back a few weeks to reset so turned the 12 week plan into much longer. I guess not quite 6 months.... just felt that way. :)
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Re: FTP long time stuck [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
mrlobber wrote:
I can Z2 all day long with minimal HR drift, but add some more intensity at the very beginning, and this leaves dramatic impact on my ability to create Z3 efforts a couple of hours later.

My suggestion, therefore would be: hit the gym in winter for some cycling-specific strength training program of at least 6 weeks and then see what happens. 4 out of 5 cyclists, who have never done that before, would see notable improvements.



I think if you read the first part of this quote your training solution to make some drastic gains is staring you right in the face. The gym could be a solution but I'd re-read and think about the line above it as the 99% solution.

Just anecdote from me, but this reply above seems true. I recently improved this myself and have had a new kick start.

I had a hole between z1/z2 and the z5/z6 area because as a time crunched person I did pretty much only HIIT and then some Z2 stuff to prep for longer events I did.

I have started to "fill that hole" and it's amazing.
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Re: FTP long time stuck [mrlobber] [ In reply to ]
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Like DD said, do THIS:

mrlobber wrote:
...add some more intensity at the very beginning, and this leaves dramatic impact on my ability to create Z3 efforts a couple of hours later.

I do all kinds of variations on this theme as the basis of my "long ride". So, a 2 1/2 hour ride might look like this:

30-45 min WU
<<30-60 minutes of intensity>>
90 minutes z2

The intensity comes in all forms. Could be 5x5' @ vo2, or 15x30" @ 150% FTP this could even be doubled up with 15' easy in the middle, or 60 min @ sweet spot, etc.

I always see significant gains once I start rolling the intensity into the long-ride.
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Re: FTP long time stuck [mrlobber] [ In reply to ]
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mrlobber wrote:
A steady 10-15W progression year over year as some are suggesting in this thread is actually very rare unless you're starting from the very bottom, i.e., an almost totally untrained state.


Why?

Because provided that you already do structured training at least 7 hours per week on average, in 2-3 years most if not all the people hit their limiter (sometimes several of them), which is then the main reason for their power to plateau.

For some, it is the aerobic system - these are the ones who would respond to higher mileage.
For some, it is VO2 level efforts; these would respond to a better polarized or reverse polarized approach.

....

You are saying that someone doing only 7 hours a week has hit their FTP limit? I don't care how smart you are with your training, 7 hours is not going to get most people near the limit of their FTP.

I've seen this many times that someone thinks they are "maxed out" because their FTP hasn't gone up in years, even though they have been training really hard (but not really increasing the volume). Then, something changes in their life (coach, category upgrade, etc.) and they decide to train 12-15 hours a week instead of 7 and they add 30 watts to their FTP in 6 months. I'm not saying everyone has the time to do that kind of volume (it can be unhealthy/addictive in lots of ways), but every time I see someone go down this path, they add significant power and endurance.

Take anyone who is training 7 hours and put them on a good program with 12-15 hours a week. I would place a big bet on them significantly increasing their FTP in 3-6 months. Is it worth the time and effort? That's a personal decision.

For me, my FTP hangs around 270 when I'm not training but just riding, group rides, etc. ( ~8 hours a week). On 8-10 hours, I can push my FTP up to ~290 with focused training. If I'm training for a big event, I'll ramp up to ~12 hours/week and that will push my FTP up to ~310. That takes at least 3 months for me at the higher volume. I feel like I could get to 320 or 330 with some additional volume, but 12 hours is about my limit before it starts consuming my life and I struggle to get enough recovery time. 12 hours is pretty manageable if I can get a 6 hour ride in on Saturday AM. Long hard rides are the key for me to push up my FTP, not doing 1 more 40 minute threshold interval each week.

Someone posted this earlier but I think it's worth re-posting:
http://www.hunterallenpowerblog.com/2010/12/next-level.html


I've seen this approach work multiple times. It's not just volume, but hard volume. I don't think there is a path to maxing out your FTP on 7 hours/wk.
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Re: FTP long time stuck [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:
Like DD said, do THIS:

mrlobber wrote:

...add some more intensity at the very beginning, and this leaves dramatic impact on my ability to create Z3 efforts a couple of hours later.


I do all kinds of variations on this theme as the basis of my "long ride". So, a 2 1/2 hour ride might look like this:

30-45 min WU
<<30-60 minutes of intensity>>
90 minutes z2

The intensity comes in all forms. Could be 5x5' @ vo2, or 15x30" @ 150% FTP this could even be doubled up with 15' easy in the middle, or 60 min @ sweet spot, etc.

I always see significant gains once I start rolling the intensity into the long-ride.


Certainly appreciate the advice, but been there and done that already ;) - in 8 years of self coaching I've tried both slowtwitch and non-slowtwitch approaches :), mixed intensities, different length "base periods", sweetspot, legendary 2x20's, HIIT etc. And, as I said, after the first 2 years where I started from zero endurance background, while I've seen significant gains later, they have been very shortlived - a couple of months, and I'm back where I was before, never with a "permanent" FTP boost, hovering at or below 4 W/kg all the time. So short term FTP boost from intensity - yes. Long term (where you could transfer FTP gains from previous season to the next) - no. At least not in my case.

Anyway, the devil most likely is in the details here. Finally, I took a coach mid last season and we'll see the result of a totally different winter this year.

----------------------------
Need more W/CdA.
Last edited by: mrlobber: Feb 15, 19 23:53
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Re: FTP long time stuck [T-wrecks] [ In reply to ]
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T-wrecks wrote:
Jesus. It was a joke. Have you ever had a muscle core taken? Imagine, if you will, taking a straw out of your next gin and tonic and jamming it into your quad while you're riding. But at least they can get the blood that same way instead of the ear/finger pricks.


Whilst I applaud your crusade against the misuse of apostrophes, I must deprecate your reference to the heretical idea of drinking gin and tonic through a straw.
Last edited by: Robert Estienne: Feb 16, 19 3:11
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Re: FTP long time stuck [mrlobber] [ In reply to ]
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mrlobber wrote:
So short term FTP boost from intensity - yes. Long term (where you could transfer FTP gains from previous season to the next) - no. At least not in my case.

Anyway, the devil most likely is in the details here. Finally, I took a coach mid last season and we'll see the result of a totally different winter this year.

Mine neither. After that many years of training, I just don't think it's going to happen much.

I did about six years of high volume training (15-22 hours) followed by the last six years of low volume (7-10ish hours) with more intensity and my ftp hasn't improved more than 15-20 watts in that time frame.

My other durations improved a lot as I focused on them, but even now I seemed to have pretty much tapped out max numbers for most all durations at this point. I suspect it would take a big change to have any movement anywhere on the curve, but at my age and level there's really nowhere to go but down, so maintenance is what I'm aiming for.
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Re: FTP long time stuck [rubik] [ In reply to ]
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15hours+ vs 7hours, and ftp basically a wash? this is what scares me lol. I was chipper with the idea of going all in on the bike in the offseason, with just a few swims/runs per week to minimise the damage. This thread had me convinced. But a few of these stories makes me gun shy.
Surely 22hrs vs 20ish hours of cycling, youd be much better all around on that volume.
However i will ask though, is your FTP already high? I use trainerroad virtual power on the kurt kinetic road machine and find it quite accurate. The problem is im maxing out at 260, and im about 72 kilos. There has gotta be more in me than that in my opinion. Im prepared to hit 12hr weeks bike only to find out, hoping that will lift it.
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