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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I'm totally with you. No one stepped up when so many knew. Inexcusable!

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I'm not with you guys in suggesting it was other's fault or they didn't "support" her enough. Or better yet, I dont think you or I have any clue what they did or didn't do and that just because she successful took her life this time means they failed her. You can't put someone in a bubble, you can only be there for them and do everything you can for them. ETA: If you guys have evidence they ignored/didn't help, I'm all ears, especially when your putting blame on others for this situation. I find that pretty disguisting as well.

In the article the sister said she had a 2.5hr conversation with her 1 week prior to her death. She said she seemed fine and in a better place, not "suicidal".

So I think I'd hope the finger pointing doesn't occur or better yet have a much better grasp of what people around her did or didn't do to help her....And no just because she died doesn't mean imo they "failed" her. At some point we all have shit that we have to answer for ourselves.


ETA #2- I think we can look at this situation and assess what was and wasn't done to help her and potentially have better "steps" to help athletes in these situations...but at the same time this was an independent 23 year old woman. How far are you going to say people around her have to do stuff to make sure suicides don't occur? Take her out of school? Not let her race anymore? Put her in a hospital til she feels better...Concussion symptons can come and go for what 2 years? At some point people make really bad bad decisions and we can't always be there for someone when that bad decision is made....unfortunately.....I just find it wrong to say it was the family/friends/coaches/school's fault.

At the end of the day, you can support someone as best you can but unless your going to alter your own life to provide actual real life daily care for someone, people with stuff like this type of altered mental state will "fall through the cracks".

Agree with you. We have no idea how much support she received from family, friends, coaches, teachers, etc and we could be causing the living even more pain because maybe "they missed something".

Could any of us guarantee that someone close to us wouldn't or couldn't?

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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What I suggest is properly communicating to victims of TBI that 1) the recovery may/likely will be very very hard and that you WILL initially be operating at a diminished capacity, 2) That a lot of what you feel in months after an accident are DUE to the accident and not some personal failing, and 3) things WILL get better as time progresses. I don't know if this was properly communicated to Kelly and not trying to point fingers at anyone specifically. I read the same WaPo article you did, and it certainly sounded like there's a chance it might not have been though. I KNOW that in my case it certainly wasn't.

Obviously lashing out in anger at strangers may not be fair as you point out.

B_Doughtie wrote:

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Yes but what's support or guidance? Who's to judge that. This is a 23 year old woman that was riding/school/life, this wasn't someone who was going to just get put under adult 24hr supervision.


So as I said unless we know what they did or didn't do, I find it a bit disguisting to point blame on others in these situations.
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [lschaan] [ In reply to ]
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Correct.

I was on a bike ride that ended in the passenger seat of a Toyota Siena. I had a subdural hematoma and spend a couple of days in an artificial coma. When I was lucid about a week after being woken up from that coma, the gaggle of MDs in whose care I was were more than happy to talk about my broken neck, and my broken collar bone, and the road rash, and the plastic surgeon (the best in Canada, and he did a bang up job) was very proud of his work on my shattered face.

But nobody, NOBODY, at that time told me what the likely consequences were of a head injury like the one I sustained. So when I started to be moody, and snap at my wife and kids, and feel really sorry for my self, and depressed, and anxious - I had no idea where that came from, until my PI lawyer (they're good for something, sometimes) hooked me up with a team of people that had seen it all before and knew what they were doing. But even with those people around (neuropsychiatrist, occupational therapist, psychotherapist, rehab support worker, ...) I ended up in that dark, dark place about a year and a half later which required medication to extricate me from. Would it have been just me and my wife: I don't know, man. I may have swallowed those pills.

So Brooks, you're right. I don't know what happened. And I don't know what support she had available. But I *do* know what happens if you fuck up your brain, I *do* happen that even in the medical community there's not a lot of head injury expertise around, and I *do* know that you have to have people around you that support you. Because there's no way you can do it alone, and somebody has to tell you it's OK to be angry, sad, and/or anxious. And that it's OK that you can't solve the fucking second order partial differential equation you could derive blindfolded last week (*). But ideally that somebody should also tell you that even though it will get better (and it really does), there will be things that are lost forever (because there are).

And I was 45 when it happened to me. If this would have happened when I was 23: again, I don't know, man.

(*) True story: six months after my crash I had decided I was going to fill my days with building a Training Peaks/Golden Cheetah type application. Because why not. And I was having some trouble with some of the intricacies of Dr Coggan's NP formulas, and I posted here for help (WTF was I thinking, right?). And Jack Mott, bless his heart, tells me "What are you doing modeling that with a TBI. I don't understand it and I don't have a TBI". And that helped put things in perspective.



lschaan wrote:
What I suggest is properly communicating to victims of TBI that 1) the recovery may/likely will be very very hard and that you WILL initially be operating at a diminished capacity, 2) That a lot of what you feel in months after an accident are DUE to the accident and not some personal failing, and 3) things WILL get better as time progresses. I don't know if this was properly communicated to Kelly and not trying to point fingers at anyone specifically. I read the same WaPo article you did, and it certainly sounded like there's a chance it might not have been though. I KNOW that in my case it certainly wasn't.

Obviously lashing out in anger at strangers may not be fair as you point out.

B_Doughtie wrote:

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Yes but what's support or guidance? Who's to judge that. This is a 23 year old woman that was riding/school/life, this wasn't someone who was going to just get put under adult 24hr supervision.


So as I said unless we know what they did or didn't do, I find it a bit disguisting to point blame on others in these situations.

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
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Yes I totally understand that. And appreciate your 1st hand account. I think it was probaly best to leave it at that and not interject your opinion into what certain groups close to her has or hasn't done in this particular instance, especially when *you/we* don't know. That was more my point in all this, if we are going to have an open discussion about things.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Mar 11, 19 20:56
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
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I became convinced in the concussion/depression connection when, three years ago almost to this very day, my 16 year-old nephew’s son took his own life several months after sustaining a second, more serious concussion while playing ice hockey. His classmates told me of the changes in him following that concussion. He was still being treated at the time of his death, but no one ever suspected he’d take his own life. It was devastating to everyone.

Nowadays, I cringe when I hear of someone—especially a young person—sustaining a concussion. I would take it as seriously as any potentially life-threatening affliction.
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [lschaan] [ In reply to ]
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lschaan wrote:
What I suggest is properly communicating to victims of TBI that 1) the recovery may/likely will be very very hard and that you WILL initially be operating at a diminished capacity, 2) That a lot of what you feel in months after an accident are DUE to the accident and not some personal failing, and 3) things WILL get better as time progresses. I don't know if this was properly communicated to Kelly and not trying to point fingers at anyone specifically. I read the same WaPo article you did, and it certainly sounded like there's a chance it might not have been though. I KNOW that in my case it certainly wasn't.

Obviously lashing out in anger at strangers may not be fair as you point out.

B_Doughtie wrote:

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Yes but what's support or guidance? Who's to judge that. This is a 23 year old woman that was riding/school/life, this wasn't someone who was going to just get put under adult 24hr supervision.


So as I said unless we know what they did or didn't do, I find it a bit disguisting to point blame on others in these situations.
It sure is nice if one has people around them that do help and are understanding... I was in a cycling crash a few years ago... back fractures and brain injury being the big injuries outside of cuts, bruising... other stuff. Between my immdediate family and a friend that is a personal injury lawyer that knows a great deal about brain injuries... I was in relatively good hands and they put me in good situations towards recovery. I've also struggled with depression previously but for me while healing I felt more driven when I could focus to get back to living life, driving, training, back to work, etc. I honestly can't recall if I was depressed or not in the early stages.

I failed mini-mentals miserably, couldn't drive, slept all day, couldn't read, watch tv, use a computer, had outbursts, etc... There were times that I'd just forgotten a conversation I'd just had, my wife crying because I'd literally just asked her the same question and there's a list of things I just don't recall. That was hard, I do remember I felt stupid and like I might be losing intelligence even though I was aware my brain was "rebooting"... and at times unaware I suppose. I still have trouble speaking, sometimes words just don't come to me. It is what it is though and I've come a long ways.

I'm saddened to hear of Kelly's accident, depression and subsequent taking of her life.
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
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Richard Blaine wrote:
Correct.

I was on a bike ride that ended in the passenger seat of a Toyota Siena. I had a subdural hematoma and spend a couple of days in an artificial coma. When I was lucid about a week after being woken up from that coma, the gaggle of MDs in whose care I was were more than happy to talk about my broken neck, and my broken collar bone, and the road rash, and the plastic surgeon (the best in Canada, and he did a bang up job) was very proud of his work on my shattered face.

But nobody, NOBODY, at that time told me what the likely consequences were of a head injury like the one I sustained. So when I started to be moody, and snap at my wife and kids, and feel really sorry for my self, and depressed, and anxious - I had no idea where that came from, until my PI lawyer (they're good for something, sometimes) hooked me up with a team of people that had seen it all before and knew what they were doing. But even with those people around (neuropsychiatrist, occupational therapist, psychotherapist, rehab support worker, ...) I ended up in that dark, dark place about a year and a half later which required medication to extricate me from. Would it have been just me and my wife: I don't know, man. I may have swallowed those pills.

So Brooks, you're right. I don't know what happened. And I don't know what support she had available. But I *do* know what happens if you fuck up your brain, I *do* happen that even in the medical community there's not a lot of head injury expertise around, and I *do* know that you have to have people around you that support you. Because there's no way you can do it alone, and somebody has to tell you it's OK to be angry, sad, and/or anxious. And that it's OK that you can't solve the fucking second order partial differential equation you could derive blindfolded last week (*). But ideally that somebody should also tell you that even though it will get better (and it really does), there will be things that are lost forever (because there are).

And I was 45 when it happened to me. If this would have happened when I was 23: again, I don't know, man.

(*) True story: six months after my crash I had decided I was going to fill my days with building a Training Peaks/Golden Cheetah type application. Because why not. And I was having some trouble with some of the intricacies of Dr Coggan's NP formulas, and I posted here for help (WTF was I thinking, right?). And Jack Mott, bless his heart, tells me "What are you doing modeling that with a TBI. I don't understand it and I don't have a TBI". And that helped put things in perspective.

Thank you for sharing your perspective Richard Blaine. But just because YOU had an experience, doesn't mean that (A) you are now an authority, and (2) that you absolutely know the causal link. You could be right, but you could very wrong. As I am sure you know, life is already extremely complicated, with or without the complications of a concussion. But to ignore a whole host of potentialities and realities (e.g. depression) and stake your answer in one vignette and subjective theory is ... well ... intellectually dishonest.
Last edited by: p3: Mar 12, 19 8:06
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [p3] [ In reply to ]
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Feel like this thread is going off the rails here. Let me try to mediate. Can we just agree to the following 3 points and get back to posting condolences and celebrating what Kelly managed to accomplish in her short life?

1) I think we all can agree that it is appropriate to respectfully discuss concussions and ways to possibly improve recovery after an incident like this?
2) I think we can all agree that it's inappropriate to cast direct blame in a situation we really don't know a lot about. Family or friends certainly don't need to be read about internet strangers questioning their approach.
3) While Richard or others who have shared experiences with TBI certainly are not "medical experts", our experiences with struggling in the aftermath of TBI should be an important part of a conversation. We don't know what happened with Kelly specifically but we DO KNOW that in our cases the medical establishment failed in a lot of ways. As long as we discuss our experiences in a respectful manner and discuss concrete ideas that don't cast direct blame. We may have cast blame earlier where we shouldn't have.

RIP Kelly and thank you for all you did for USA Cycling and others. Sincere condolences to any family or friends affected by this.
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [xeon] [ In reply to ]
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It sure is nice if one has people around them that do help and are understanding...

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Yes but let’s think about the circumstances. Where was her family? Likely living their own life back in Minn or her siblings are wherever they are in college/post college. So she was out in San Fran “alone” other than her local friends and whatever situation was w her local pro team or track support and school academics.

Her move to San Fran to better her career and knowledge in an degree she really enjoyed- IE doing what young adults do “mature” and start their independent lives.

So then you’ve got a situation where her family only sees X part or when she reaches out etc., the coaches only see her when they are around or maybe aren’t always seeing the signs. Then you have an academic rigor of a school that has people understanding that the students are under ton of pressure irregardless of an added brain injury.

So in all likelihood her “independence” and juggling of the things meant she likely had to “fake it” at times to point like her sister said....”1 week before we spoke for 2.5hrs and she seemed fine”.

In fact all the stories I’ve read from you guys in the thread that have had to deal with brain injuries you all had immediate family around each time? This was an woman starting life out and like most young adults independence is strong virtue to aid in discovering about yourself. And to aid someone in her situation would have meant changes in others lives- family would have had to move to be with her, that’s very hard thing to do when they each likely had their own lives to handle.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [lschaan] [ In reply to ]
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While Richard or others who have shared experiences with TBI certainly are not "medical experts", our experiences with struggling in the aftermath of TBI should be an important part of a conversation.

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It absolutely should be. In fact based on just this information alone one of the biggest differences I see is that Richard + the other guy just posted above you stated they had TBI injuries middle aged and when living with families. Meaning they had someone that always was there, they knew when they were acting "weird" and asking the same questions 2 times in a row vs when the person was normal.

Pretty much the opposite of this situation, so that she wasn't in fact "all in" on cycling or academic; she was "all in" on all of it....That's hugely critical point to understand....So it meant that she was juggling it all and maybe she would have a great day with the cycling team and then a bad day and then a good day. But she likely never had the constant attention from others around her that really could make sure she was ok when the bad episodes were really bad. That's why I as objecting to the blame that was being put on certain parties; I don't think those parties were constant enough in her life at this point in her life for it to be faulted.

ETA: Cus yes educating an injured person that the "bad" feelings you have are normal part of this, but I think if there is no "constant" person to be the person that helps you through the really bad episodes, it's going to be a very very hard process to get over. And like I said when your juggling so many things like she juggled it likely meant in fact she's only around each group a segment of her time and thus more easily can "fall through the cracks".

And keep in mind "brain" injuries are still very new for majority of people. It may be times where the times are good and then suddenly changes at the drop of the hat; unlike injuries we can see like a broken arm or torn ACL...there's pretty much an linear progress for almost all injuries of the body...except the head. My best coaching friend smashed her head in San Fran 2 years ago and she still deals with the injury issues. We'll be talking on the phone and doing simple coaching splits, and she's lost half way through the conversation...this is 2 years later. She had some "dark" episodes and feelings but she's also much older and wiser and accepting of the good/bad episodes all part of the process. This still was a very young and maturing young adult that didn't have the life/mental maturity to always understand this was all part of the process of healing your brain. It sucks it brings back memories of my own best friend who took his life at 22 years old. You just want to replay what you could do to have helped over and over in your head.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Mar 12, 19 9:28
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
It sure is nice if one has people around them that do help and are understanding...

—-
Yes but let’s think about the circumstances. Where was her family? Likely living their own life back in Minn or her siblings are wherever they are in college/post college. So she was out in San Fran “alone” other than her local friends and whatever situation was w her local pro team or track support and school academics.

....

In fact all the stories I’ve read from you guys in the thread that have had to deal with brain injuries you all had immediate family around each time? This was an woman starting life out and like most young adults independence is strong virtue to aid in discovering about yourself. And to aid someone in her situation would have meant changes in others lives- family would have had to move to be with her, that’s very hard thing to do when they each likely had their own lives to handle.
Tough to say... and I'm not going to speak directly to Kelly's situation since I really don't know.

I can speak to my own situation where having someone with me was pretty important. If not for family/friends my recovery would have been a lot rougher, I'm pretty sure of that. I wasn't supposed to drive and having three people available to take me to appointments, PT, etc. was pretty amazing amond other things.

Again, I'm very sorry to read about Kelly.
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [p3] [ In reply to ]
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p3 wrote:
Thank you for sharing your perspective Richard Blaine. But just because YOU had an experience, doesn't mean that (A) you are now an authority, and (2) that you absolutely know the causal link. You could be right, but you could very wrong. As I am sure you know, life is already extremely complicated, with or without the complications of a concussion. But to ignore a whole host of potentialities and realities (e.g. depression) and stake your answer in one vignette and subjective theory is ... well ... intellectually dishonest.

The evening I read about this I was upset and I was quick on the draw. I don't know anything about the situation and I blamed her team and USAC. I apologize for that. Again, I was upset.

Now, having said that,

I may not be an MD but I spoke to many people with long careers in concussion/TBI rehab. Many of these folks I saw for 5 years or so. And during that time we spoke, about my case, but also about TBIs in general, in the abstract. And I like to think I learned a lot in those conversations. Just like I learned a lot from conversations with other survivors (a term I hate but I don't know a better one). And how I learned a lot volunteering for my local brain injury association. Those experiences, combined with my own experience as a survivor, give me I think some authority to speak about TBIs and mental health. For a long time (it's better now) I considered it my job to know all I could know about TBIs in order to get better.

So while, again, I wasn't quite polite early on, I think i am in a position to claim that, in the abstract, TBIs have a huge impact on one's mental health. And that, again, in the abstract, if a young athlete is diagnosed with concussion, it's not a bad idea to monitor this athlete for mental health issues, and to provide support as they arise. What form this monitoring and support takes obviously depends on the person, and I don't claim to know how that's best done (*). This is, I think, all I tried to convey in the post you quoted. I am not quite sure how that is intellectually dishonest, because those statements were not a judgment of what happened in Kelly's case. If you read them that way, my bad, and I'll try to English better in the future.

And finally: other posts talk about blaming the family. I'm not sure if that was directed at me, but I would never ever blame the family. The only thing I said is that it appears that she's from a family where drive is appreciated, which is clear from the interviews with her siblings. But calling that blame is, in my opinion, nonsense. That's like blaming somebody because they're from a family where an interest in astrophysics is appreciated. It's an observation.

(*) One interesting idea in that area is what the varsity rugby team at my local university does: all players have to do a baseline neuropsychological test before the season, and they also have to do one if they are diagnosed with a concussion.

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
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Richard Blaine wrote:
p3 wrote:

Thank you for sharing your perspective Richard Blaine. But just because YOU had an experience, doesn't mean that (A) you are now an authority, and (2) that you absolutely know the causal link. You could be right, but you could very wrong. As I am sure you know, life is already extremely complicated, with or without the complications of a concussion. But to ignore a whole host of potentialities and realities (e.g. depression) and stake your answer in one vignette and subjective theory is ... well ... intellectually dishonest.


The evening I read about this I was upset and I was quick on the draw. I don't know anything about the situation and I blamed her team and USAC. I apologize for that. Again, I was upset.

Now, having said that,

I may not be an MD but I spoke to many people with long careers in concussion/TBI rehab. Many of these folks I saw for 5 years or so. And during that time we spoke, about my case, but also about TBIs in general, in the abstract. And I like to think I learned a lot in those conversations. Just like I learned a lot from conversations with other survivors (a term I hate but I don't know a better one). And how I learned a lot volunteering for my local brain injury association. Those experiences, combined with my own experience as a survivor, give me I think some authority to speak about TBIs and mental health. For a long time (it's better now) I considered it my job to know all I could know about TBIs in order to get better.

So while, again, I wasn't quite polite early on, I think i am in a position to claim that, in the abstract, TBIs have a huge impact on one's mental health. And that, again, in the abstract, if a young athlete is diagnosed with concussion, it's not a bad idea to monitor this athlete for mental health issues, and to provide support as they arise. What form this monitoring and support takes obviously depends on the person, and I don't claim to know how that's best done (*). This is, I think, all I tried to convey in the post you quoted. I am not quite sure how that is intellectually dishonest, because those statements were not a judgment of what happened in Kelly's case. If you read them that way, my bad, and I'll try to English better in the future.

And finally: other posts talk about blaming the family. I'm not sure if that was directed at me, but I would never ever blame the family. The only thing I said is that it appears that she's from a family where drive is appreciated, which is clear from the interviews with her siblings. But calling that blame is, in my opinion, nonsense. That's like blaming somebody because they're from a family where an interest in astrophysics is appreciated. It's an observation.

(*) One interesting idea in that area is what the varsity rugby team at my local university does: all players have to do a baseline neuropsychological test before the season, and they also have to do one if they are diagnosed with a concussion.


Perhaps, Mr. Blain, given your response, you should avoid reasoning about someone's suicide in the "abstract", and instead, pay your respects. There is a time and place for personal vignettes, perhaps this is not the place, no matter how many volunteer hours you've done. Finally, perhaps this is not the best thread for you to spread your concussion ideology.

My heart goes out to the family; tragic indeed.
Last edited by: p3: Mar 12, 19 10:28
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [p3] [ In reply to ]
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p3 wrote:
Perhaps, Mr. Blain, given your response, you should avoid reasoning about someone's suicide in the "abstract", and instead, pay your respects. There is a time and place for personal vignettes, perhaps this is not the place, no matter how many volunteer hours you've done.

My heart goes out to the family; tragic indeed.

Let's leave it at that we disagree about that. A tragic death remains just that, a tragic death, if we don't try to learn from it. And, as far as I know, this is what we do in forums like this: news happens and we try to learn from it.

And be assured that I would be the first to pay my respects to Kelly's family if I had the chance. But to make a random internet discussion board the site of a vigil is pointless in my opinion.

Again, we disagree. Let's leave it at that.

(I could do without the ad hominem jabs though. It's shit like that that makes it hard for people to share their experiences)

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
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I think we can certainly learn from it. I think your earlier commment is really important to understand:

"And I was 45 when it happened to me. If this would have happened when I was 23: again, I don't know, man. "



Because I think we have to appreciate that a 23 year old is going to act very differently and accept "information" from doctors/family/friends/coaches very differently than a much more mature person at 45. Add in all that she was juggling, and I can certainly see how things can be "missed" by her coaches/family/academics.

So I think it's as important to have a "support" group that is not just understanding of what they may go through but who is actually there. But understand that being there for a 23 year old developing young adult can have many obstacles vs a person that lives with a family and is pretty much already there in your life in a daily manner.


All that "juggling" of sports and academics and life/friends/family likely meant that no one group was able to really be there on a very daily/consistent basis. And so when that happens, groups may often find that their response was "she seemed fine when we saw her" and thus not actually there when she needed it most.





Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Mar 12, 19 10:52
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [bluemonkeytri] [ In reply to ]
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Here's a very well written article in velonews (the author interviewed family and teammate):

https://www.velonews.com/...d-tragic-fall_488383

Very sad, multilayered/complex situation. I admire the family for donating her brain. I hope it provides them with some closure.
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
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Richard, thank you for sharing your personal experience and what you went through. While I can understand those who say this thread might not be the right place for this discussion, there needs to be a place for it and, frankly, I don't know where that thread is. So far we are unearthing multiple ST members who have suffered various psychological problems following concussion, yet I don't recall ever reading about this before. When the worst case scenario is suicide, this is a subject that warrants further attention. Maybe Dan can organise a thread, I don't know, but input like yours could be very helpful for anyone experiencing something similar.

When a life is lost like Kelly's, so early and so incomprehensibly, it makes sense to see if anything can be learned from the loss. Contributions like yours are how that happens.
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
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The velonews article made it seem like she may not have had a concussion as she passed all the tests for concussion after the crash, but then she suffered all the symptoms.
I wonder if she was just smart enough to pass that test with an actual concussion. It was crazy in that article she would not ask the professional team mechanics to work on her bike or ask people for directions when she didn’t know where she was. Hated help, but needed it.
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [DBF] [ In reply to ]
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DBF wrote:
I wonder if she was just smart enough to pass that test with an actual concussion.

Chloe Dygert's article mentioned she'd memorized the answers from hearing the test given to Chloe before.

That said I think the test is just one piece of imperfect evidence. When you have other symptoms as she seems to have, that's also evidence.

I'm certainly going to watch my friends more closely after wrecks.
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [hubcaps] [ In reply to ]
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It reads a lot like the personality traits of another famous athlete who took her life a couple of years ago. Jackie Fairweather.
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Chloe Dygert's article mentioned she'd memorized the answers from hearing the test given to Chloe before.

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I'm sure there are "baseline" test questions but isn't the questions also pertinant to the actual event...IE "where are you"...."what are you here for" ...."what event are you racing" etc etc.

I assumed you can't "memorize" an concussion protocol questions?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Chloe Dygert's article mentioned she'd memorized the answers from hearing the test given to Chloe before.

-----

I'm sure there are "baseline" test questions but isn't the questions also pertinant to the actual event...IE "where are you"...."what are you here for" ...."what event are you racing" etc etc.

I assumed you can't "memorize" an concussion protocol questions?

Yeah, I'd guess so, but just going off what Chloe wrote:, "...Kelly being Kelly, remembered the answers from when I took the test months ago. It was as if they didn’t even need to ask the questions, as she had the whole test basically memorized..."
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Chloe Dygert's article mentioned she'd memorized the answers from hearing the test given to Chloe before.

-----

I'm sure there are "baseline" test questions but isn't the questions also pertinant to the actual event...IE "where are you"...."what are you here for" ...."what event are you racing" etc etc.

I assumed you can't "memorize" an concussion protocol questions?


Yeah, I'd guess so, but just going off what Chloe wrote:, "...Kelly being Kelly, remembered the answers from when I took the test months ago. It was as if they didn’t even need to ask the questions, as she had the whole test basically memorized..."

Fair enough that just seems like very poor test questions then. When I have athletes who hit their head or injured in that manner, part of the questions are always directly to the events of the accident...."where are you"...."what are you here for"....."what race are you in".....nothing can be memorized fully.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Chloe Dygert's article mentioned she'd memorized the answers from hearing the test given to Chloe before.

-----

I'm sure there are "baseline" test questions but isn't the questions also pertinant to the actual event...IE "where are you"...."what are you here for" ...."what event are you racing" etc etc.

I assumed you can't "memorize" an concussion protocol questions?

Having crashed this past fall and gotten concussed and gone through a protocol worth the EMTs, I find this hard to believe. “What year is it?” “1987” (not sure where that came from, other than being 12 must have been my best year). Starting to come around a bit more as the reboot/unscrambling process continued: “Who’s the president?” I know it’s not Obama anymore but I’m not sure who it is.” (Creating endless jokes re: Trump after the fact.) And various further questions demonstrating that a trip to the ER was not optional.
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Re: Did I miss the thread about Kelly Catlin? RIP Kelly [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
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Richard Blaine wrote:
Correct.

I was on a bike ride that ended in the passenger seat of a Toyota Siena. I had a subdural hematoma and spend a couple of days in an artificial coma. When I was lucid about a week after being woken up from that coma, the gaggle of MDs in whose care I was were more than happy to talk about my broken neck, and my broken collar bone, and the road rash, and the plastic surgeon (the best in Canada, and he did a bang up job) was very proud of his work on my shattered face.

But nobody, NOBODY, at that time told me what the likely consequences were of a head injury like the one I sustained. So when I started to be moody, and snap at my wife and kids, and feel really sorry for my self, and depressed, and anxious - I had no idea where that came from, until my PI lawyer (they're good for something, sometimes) hooked me up with a team of people that had seen it all before and knew what they were doing. But even with those people around (neuropsychiatrist, occupational therapist, psychotherapist, rehab support worker, ...) I ended up in that dark, dark place about a year and a half later which required medication to extricate me from. Would it have been just me and my wife: I don't know, man. I may have swallowed those pills.

So Brooks, you're right. I don't know what happened. And I don't know what support she had available. But I *do* know what happens if you fuck up your brain, I *do* happen that even in the medical community there's not a lot of head injury expertise around, and I *do* know that you have to have people around you that support you. Because there's no way you can do it alone, and somebody has to tell you it's OK to be angry, sad, and/or anxious. And that it's OK that you can't solve the fucking second order partial differential equation you could derive blindfolded last week (*). But ideally that somebody should also tell you that even though it will get better (and it really does), there will be things that are lost forever (because there are).

And I was 45 when it happened to me. If this would have happened when I was 23: again, I don't know, man.

(*) True story: six months after my crash I had decided I was going to fill my days with building a Training Peaks/Golden Cheetah type application. Because why not. And I was having some trouble with some of the intricacies of Dr Coggan's NP formulas, and I posted here for help (WTF was I thinking, right?). And Jack Mott, bless his heart, tells me "What are you doing modeling that with a TBI. I don't understand it and I don't have a TBI". And that helped put things in perspective.



lschaan wrote:
What I suggest is properly communicating to victims of TBI that 1) the recovery may/likely will be very very hard and that you WILL initially be operating at a diminished capacity, 2) That a lot of what you feel in months after an accident are DUE to the accident and not some personal failing, and 3) things WILL get better as time progresses. I don't know if this was properly communicated to Kelly and not trying to point fingers at anyone specifically. I read the same WaPo article you did, and it certainly sounded like there's a chance it might not have been though. I KNOW that in my case it certainly wasn't.

Obviously lashing out in anger at strangers may not be fair as you point out.

B_Doughtie wrote:

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Yes but what's support or guidance? Who's to judge that. This is a 23 year old woman that was riding/school/life, this wasn't someone who was going to just get put under adult 24hr supervision.


So as I said unless we know what they did or didn't do, I find it a bit disguisting to point blame on others in these situations.


Your words in this thread are profoundly accurate. At uni our swimming culture was very accepting of hard drinking. At some point it dawned on me that I am an alcoholic (in long term recovery; thankfully) who always struggled with depression and mental illness. I had a very similar accident to yours resulting in quite serious TBI. Not once did anyone talk to me about the long term affects. Not once did our sports doctor our my coach at the time talk to me about those things or encourage me to back off with training and racing. Nor did the neurologist. At the time I was encouraged to "get back at it." I steadily became more erratic and it was one of those things that I wasn't able to self monitor. You always live with your own thoughts and detecting the changes with a damaged brain was not something I could do. It triggered a dangerous series of years for me that only was corrected once a mental health advocate who I am friends with started seeing the signs and begged me to open up. If she had not I would have died. I tried and failed. I thank her every day for encouraging me to talk about these things. The shame and hiding of the mental side of things put me in a dangerous place. One set of doctors set me on a very dangerous trajectory. Another set saved my life.

Thank you for sharing your story and my heart breaks for the loss of human life discussed here.
Last edited by: turdburgler: Mar 14, 19 18:33
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