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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [mitchellgsides] [ In reply to ]
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In frame water storage for me is a hard pass. I much prefer bta setup. If you forget to clean it, and it has anything but water in it that could be either a nightmare, or expensive. AKA you use tribike transport and don't see your bike for 2 weeks. It also makes training on it a bit more difficult as bta bottles are just so easy. That and Canyon here in states anyway sold because they were a great value. Thousands less than the competition. This bike is just as expensive as a Cervelo, and that makes the decision super easy. Not to mention this one is heavy.

For me there are 4 bikes our right now in the new disc superbike category, not counting the Pxx series. I don't count the Scott and Specialized as to me, they are ugly and just way too expensive to be anything other than a curiosity. It's not even that I can't afford them, I just refuse to pay that much for a bike. Per my personal ranking:


P5 Disc
Argon18
Orbea
Canyon

in that order. I would move the Orbea up if they had a nice deep bento box, but no bento is a big minus.
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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cyclenutnz wrote:
Chemist wrote:


9-10 watts faster than the old Speedmax is impressive. Though I'm not sure we ever really had a clear picture of where the old Speedmax was compared to the Speed Concept, P5, etc.


Tour Magazin did a comparative test

Digitising their numbers and plugging into Kona course model for a 4hr rider (45kph) puts the old Speedmax 12w behind the P5-Three rim brake.
So 9-10w improvement means Canyon are now into the range of the top flight bikes.

Yeah, I was going to point out the same thing. At best, they've brought themselves even, though they're not telling anyone what configuration they were comparing.

I recommend Canyon's to my clients every day, but I think they blew it on pricing. I just wrote this to a client who wanted to know if the bike fit him and my thoughts...

$8K gets you a Cervelo P3x or, better yet, a TriRig Omni after installing electronic shifting (actually, the TriRig would be less). Canyon is saving 30-40 points by not selling through bike shops, most of which they were passing along to the consumer in savings. Now they're just keeping it for themselves. I'm thinking that could backfire on them. Most people purchased Canyon because it was just as good as any other bike for a lower price. Now it's just as good as any other bike. Just another bike to choose from, but no compelling reason to buy it. I was joking with an industry friend that Cervelo and Felt must be all smiles today.


Perhaps a little harsh, but honestly what's the differentiator now? I'm hard-pressed to find one from their Tri bike offerings. Great bikes, to be sure, but nothing more than anyone else.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for digging that up and sharing

Matt
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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cyclenutnz wrote:
Chemist wrote:


9-10 watts faster than the old Speedmax is impressive. Though I'm not sure we ever really had a clear picture of where the old Speedmax was compared to the Speed Concept, P5, etc.


Tour Magazin did a comparative test

Digitising their numbers and plugging into Kona course model for a 4hr rider (45kph) puts the old Speedmax 12w behind the P5-Three rim brake.
So 9-10w improvement means Canyon are now into the range of the top flight bikes.

Interesting. Looks like I'm still not giving up much (if anything?) with my Speed Concept or my optimized Shiv (extrapolating from the Felt IA and and Cervelo P5-3 data)
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:


Perhaps a little harsh, but honestly what's the differentiator now? I'm hard-pressed to find one from their Tri bike offerings. Great bikes, to be sure, but nothing more than anyone else.

Much kinder than what I told one of my clients...
Although, I haven't found much to get excited about in any of the recent tri bike releases. For all the talk of convergence there isn't consistency in solving the requirements of a tri bike.
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
I was joking with an industry friend that Cervelo and Felt must be all smiles today.

What does felt have up their sleeves??

blog
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Welp, there goes my current thinking...back to square one.
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [jn46] [ In reply to ]
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not to mention geometry pic is out of tune with teh legend to it
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [R2] [ In reply to ]
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One thing that annoys me is the canyon text is not centered but lowered on the downtube, just why? Is it Diamondback that does the same? The old position was perfect/normal!


I would have been a speedmax cfslx owner if the old one came in XL, this one does which is great! I also like they build a 650cc X's! I love the tool kit integration and bento box, but the bladder I'm very unsure of, I loved the old speedmax look.

Biggest issue is the price, I know pm is now included but it is 3k dollars more expensive than a last year's paint scheme cd slx. Sadly simply out of my price range.
So who is left? Giant and Trek?
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
Perhaps a little harsh, but honestly what's the differentiator now? I'm hard-pressed to find one from their Tri bike offerings. Great bikes, to be sure, but nothing more than anyone else.

Well I'll say that if I was in the market for a more mainstream tri bike and being someone who can afford whatever they want, that this would be it. The refinement of things like the hose routing for the bladder, bento and tools amongst other things is awesome and isn't what I find hideously ugly IMO to the Scott without the bladder hose refinement. I see it as a very innovative packed bike with all the little finishing touches I find appealing and very few other bikes would come close to comparing. I understand most people could not afford or justify this bike but for someone in my position it ticks all the boxes and would be top of the list if I could get a decent fit. I am not sure what the world demand will be but I am sure there will be many out on course.

I am somewhat surprised in what seems a jump in bike prices in recent times but it is the same with so many things boats, caravans, outboard motors, cars... in Australia during this covid period.
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
Interesting. Looks like I'm still not giving up much (if anything?) with my Speed Concept or my optimized Shiv (extrapolating from the Felt IA and and Cervelo P5-3 data)

You're not giving anything up with the SC. This is why I am finding new bike releases so uninspiring. My P5 I've had since 2012 hasn't been beaten for aero, fits as wide tyres as I want and is easier to work on than any of the new bikes. What would make me want to change is the Plasma6 geo (for XL) with P5 design.
And my Gen2 S5 unsurpassed as well, so I'm getting that repainted because road bikes are disappointing me too.
Given my enthusiasm for bikes these feel like dismal times (I live somewhere that Covid is barely an issue so this year hasn't been all that dismal aside from boring bikes).
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
$8K gets you a Cervelo P3x or, better yet, a TriRig Omni after installing electronic shifting (actually, the TriRig would be less). Canyon is saving 30-40 points by not selling through bike shops, most of which they were passing along to the consumer in savings. Now they're just keeping it for themselves. I'm thinking that could backfire on them. Most people purchased Canyon because it was just as good as any other bike for a lower price. Now it's just as good as any other bike. Just another bike to choose from, but no compelling reason to buy it. I was joking with an industry friend that Cervelo and Felt must be all smiles today.

Perhaps a little harsh, but honestly what's the differentiator now? I'm hard-pressed to find one from their Tri bike offerings. Great bikes, to be sure, but nothing more than anyone else.

Ever done any aero testing with the Omni ?

Looking forward to seeing if 14 degrees tilt really is the max on the Canyon, as it seems very low to me nowadays.

Other than that I find it a nice bike, though I'm not the biggest fan of integrated hydration. I like what Reap just launched in term of integrating a standard bottle into an high end aerobar. I'd rather see a brand try and make standard bottles as aero as it gets on a bike than integrating hydration... swapping bottle from behind saddle to aerobar is just so much faster and safer than filling an integrated solution IMHO.

I do agree with you it's an expensive "consumer direct" superbike :-( .
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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cyclenutnz wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:

Interesting. Looks like I'm still not giving up much (if anything?) with my Speed Concept or my optimized Shiv (extrapolating from the Felt IA and and Cervelo P5-3 data)


You're not giving anything up with the SC. This is why I am finding new bike releases so uninspiring. My P5 I've had since 2012 hasn't been beaten for aero, fits as wide tyres as I want and is easier to work on than any of the new bikes. What would make me want to change is the Plasma6 geo (for XL) with P5 design.
And my Gen2 S5 unsurpassed as well, so I'm getting that repainted because road bikes are disappointing me too.
Given my enthusiasm for bikes these feel like dismal times (I live somewhere that Covid is barely an issue so this year hasn't been all that dismal aside from boring bikes).

so you finally gave up regreting the sale of your p4 ?
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [pk] [ In reply to ]
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pk wrote:
so you finally gave up regreting the sale of your p4 ?

I'm no quitter.
The hunt continues
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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i was really interested to see what Canyon brought out as i'm looking to replace my 2015 BMC Time Machine.

I like the integrated hydration, for me i don't want bottles on the DT and i don't really want to have to install a third party BTA solution (i have that now and it's hit and miss). The fact that the Canyone integrated hydration can take a full 750ml bottle (ish) is a big positive over the Scott.

I like the tool integration as well. And discs are good, becuase it means i can have one set of wheels to share between my road bike and race bike.

But i think they've hugely dropped the ball on pricing, there's now no comparative advantage to make up for the lack of customer service etc
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [Jwb_LDN] [ In reply to ]
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Like a few others on here, I am left disappointed after the announcement. Not by the bike itself - I think it is fantastic and I love the integration - but the price.

I am needing a new bike, delayed my pre-purchase bike fit to accommodate for the new Speedmax release, and I was really hoping it would fit me well since they were such good value for money previously.

But to increase the price on a like-for-like bike from the previous generation by £2K? I have now moved from the position of hoping the fitter gives me the thumbs up so I can pull the trigger, to uncertainty and not knowing what I’ll be riding next year.
Last edited by: DhobiWanKenobi: Nov 18, 20 5:04
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [DhobiWanKenobi] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure I follow what others are saying about the massive price increase.

Last year's CF SLX UltegraDi2 is $7500 and the new one is $8000 and comes with a power meter. Basically $0 increase subtracting the cost of the PM.

Last year's CF SLX Dura-Ace Di2 is $10500 (on sale now for 9K) and this years (called the CFR) is $12k with a power meter so not a big increase (maybe 500-1000 after cost of PM?).

And for the entry level version (non-SLX) they seem to have increased $500.

Cheers, Ray
Last edited by: TX83: Nov 18, 20 5:16
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [TX83] [ In reply to ]
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I think it also depends on regional pricing. Ultegra Di2 in the UK was around £6.5K for the previous generation, so a significant price increase.
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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cyclenutnz wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
Interesting. Looks like I'm still not giving up much (if anything?) with my Speed Concept or my optimized Shiv (extrapolating from the Felt IA and and Cervelo P5-3 data)

You're not giving anything up with the SC. This is why I am finding new bike releases so uninspiring. My P5 I've had since 2012 hasn't been beaten for aero, fits as wide tyres as I want and is easier to work on than any of the new bikes. What would make me want to change is the Plasma6 geo (for XL) with P5 design.
And my Gen2 S5 unsurpassed as well, so I'm getting that repainted because road bikes are disappointing me too.
Given my enthusiasm for bikes these feel like dismal times (I live somewhere that Covid is barely an issue so this year hasn't been all that dismal aside from boring bikes).

I have bike only testing on the old Speedmax. It's 2-4w slower than the premier tactical getting slower as the yaw angle increases, which means this new Plasma is at most 4w faster than a P5-6 iirc all the numbers from the aerobike shoot out.

Makes me feel good about the P3X I bought to replace the scott Plasma premium 3 that I mod'd the F out of to make it +/- 2w faster/slower than the premier depending on the yaw angle.

Also I know someone who may be selling a P4. What size are you?

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [DhobiWanKenobi] [ In reply to ]
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DhobiWanKenobi wrote:
I think it also depends on regional pricing. Ultegra Di2 in the UK was around £6.5K for the previous generation, so a significant price increase.

If you go on US website the prices still seem reasonable. It's essentially swapping the £ figure to USD, even though exchange rate 1.3ish. You'd think prices would be comparatively higher for a european company in the US market. I wonder if they are still trying to tap into the bigger US triathlon scene and recoup the profits from European sales.

For those of you in US wondering about our European pricing concerns, to paint the simplest picture the bottom end entry level 105 CF 7 model has gone up 1062usd based on current GBP/USD exchange rates. This continues all the way up the ladder.
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [mrlobber] [ In reply to ]
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it's interesting that the latest Plasma and now Speedmax have moved more towards the very fat downtube of the Shiv from a while ago with the bladder stored within.

i thought this shape was shown to perform poorly aerodynamically in real world wind conditions?....hence the previous iterations of the Plasma and Speedmax and now latest Shiv all had/ have relatively skinny tubes.

maybe they've refined it so the shape can work with the airflow rather than being so draggy, as these companies have become a bit more savvy with real world testing and the development of mobile aero measuring devices. just my thought when seeing these bikes for the first time.

i also found it interesting that the main 'leap forward' in both the Plasma and Speedmax are the enhanced user friendliness of the bikes. the previous generations had reached this 'peak aero' level where there's little room left for real world aero gains, but as they're around the first generation of bikes to really get to this, were still very fiddly to live and travel with - as Kienle even alluded to in his video. so a big area for potential development seems to have been making that level of aero performance, user friendly.

there's a bit more integration, obviously also the move to disc brakes, but that's a big price to pay on both these options for additional user friendliness.

i would for sure love to have one of these bikes, but probably couldn't justify spending that amount of money on making life easier in terms of travelling with the bike. maybe the extra adjustability for getting your position on the bike can get you closer to reaching the aero potential of the bike too - but it's still very theoretical due to the extremely uncontrolled environmental conditions of a race.

however, i do like that they have recognised that the normal racing conditions are so uncontrolled that you just can't create an overall aero package as it's impossible to say how airflow coming off one part of the bike will be affected in changing conditions for how it will interact with the rest of the rider, bike and wheels. so they've concentrated on making sure each part is clean and works well, e.g. the forks and chainstays now being wider so as not to interact with the wheels. maybe this and the user friendliness all come under the improved usability of the bikes which means the user can get closer to the maximum theoretical performance of the bikes.

i'll definitely be more interested in the next iteration of the Plasma and Speedmax once they bring the weight back down and probably refine the handling a little more as these are very new frame concepts.

Feel the Speed
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
I was joking with an industry friend that Cervelo and Felt must be all smiles today.

What does felt have up their sleeves??

I never meant to indicate either Cervelo or Felt had something in the pipeline, though I know of one bike that hasn't yet been announced. Then there'll be a big one probably next year as well I'm certainly interested to see.

I think these are fine bikes from Canyon. Nothing groundbreaking, but good nonetheless. I find many folks don't use their in-frame hydration due to the fluid getting warm, so that isn't much of a selling point to me. The lack of more tilt is a reflection of the athletes they sponsor and a big miss, but they're not alone there. The CF with a Aeria hydration bottle up front is likely the better bike overall.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
Perhaps a little harsh, but honestly what's the differentiator now? I'm hard-pressed to find one from their Tri bike offerings. Great bikes, to be sure, but nothing more than anyone else.


Well I'll say that if I was in the market for a more mainstream tri bike and being someone who can afford whatever they want, that this would be it. The refinement of things like the hose routing for the bladder, bento and tools amongst other things is awesome and isn't what I find hideously ugly IMO to the Scott without the bladder hose refinement. I see it as a very innovative packed bike with all the little finishing touches I find appealing and very few other bikes would come close to comparing. I understand most people could not afford or justify this bike but for someone in my position it ticks all the boxes and would be top of the list if I could get a decent fit. I am not sure what the world demand will be but I am sure there will be many out on course.

I am somewhat surprised in what seems a jump in bike prices in recent times but it is the same with so many things boats, caravans, outboard motors, cars... in Australia during this covid period.

Here's my yeah, but. For years Canyon did "paid advertising" with all the reviews and placement in magazines stating that you save money with their brand being direct to consumer, cutting out a tier of distribution. However, today, there are no cost savings. Is this bike easier to wrench than their previous bikes? At the end of the day if you don't know how to build a bike you're taking it to a local mechanic, if things break it's hard to get Canyon specific parts (at least in the US unless things have changed during the pandemic). They hate talking to bike shop mechanics and only want to talk with bike owners. And most bike owners (like myself) are out of their depth if something is broken.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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I build and wrench my own bikes so not a concern. I hadn’t thought of that so I wouldn’t be swayed. I was just adding some perspective as I think it’s as stunning bike but I guess some doctors bikes may be running a bit rough then.
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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12W?? How did you come with that number? I’ve downloaded that test, there’s 4.2W difference vs P5?
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