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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:
Perhaps it's because I've spent years reading horribly written emails from my dad, but I've read articles/emails written by professional writers that are worse than brett's blog.

Pedant.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks ;)
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [cervelo-van] [ In reply to ]
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I am a swimmer that loves pads and I have had great IM swim times against pros that would kill me 50 or 100m Intervals so I understand what he is saying. (IMC 2005 1:07, IMC 2009 53min) Fastest 100 even recorded 1:14.

As for that athlete that took their stoke count from 22 to 18 in a 25 meter pool in one session. You have to ask yourself if swimming slower with less force applied will help you become a better swimmer, does biking a slow rpm with less force (going slower) make you a better cyclist if you can feel the full pedal stroke. Rather then the faster quicker top loaded pedal stroke.

http://www.anthonytoth.ca
Fit Club Personal Training
First Rule of Fit Club: NEVER QUIT!
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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This makes sense. Yesterday I did a fair bit of the main set with paddles buoy and band. The time went down for the interval substantially and the DPS (measure of efficiency of my body in the water). What happened and I guess consistent with the other thread about Paulo's advice was that my fitness ran out first.

That is I got to a point in the workout where my Stroke count was not sustainable and my stroke efficiency was also all over the place. Did some recovery, drill and kick and did the same set again (8 * 200) and was better at the start of the set but fatigued this time a bit quicker.

The toys did give some instant technique without having to think about DPS, you are just doing more DPS, getting the fitness to maintain a high stroke rate is another challenge and I guess that this is the bit where sutton and Paulo are saying just swim.
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [kennyDalglish] [ In reply to ]
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Whats a good paddle for volume sets?
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Paddles, pull buoy, and band are technique tools. However, unlike drills, *with adults* the former actually effect changes that stick. In other words, if you bang out long sets with a band, you learn good body position and to hold the water for the length of your stroke.

Stupid question of the day: is the band something you tie around your ankles to keep from kicking (w/ a buoy? w/o a buoy?), or is it something you tie around your waist and a stationary object on the shore?
I've tried nearly everything else, might as well include this. Once I figure out what "this" is...
Thank you.
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [cervelo-van] [ In reply to ]
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TBB would be doing their swimming right if they ditched the pullbuoy and paddles. They do way too much swimming with the toys(paddle, pullbuoy)...if they hammered out that amount of yardage and 90% was just swimming, then the bad swimmers on TBB would get better.
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [cobalt] [ In reply to ]
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Your bare hands
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [cobalt] [ In reply to ]
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not sure I think a smaller paddle might be better, the one I have (need to check the name) is probably a bit big, so fatigue a bit faster. But get the feel of catching and pulling more water.

I'm not an expert at this (swim low 1 hour on 6-9 K a week) upping to 15 K a week to try and get an improvement
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [caf0] [ In reply to ]
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caf0 wrote:
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Paddles, pull buoy, and band are technique tools. However, unlike drills, *with adults* the former actually effect changes that stick. In other words, if you bang out long sets with a band, you learn good body position and to hold the water for the length of your stroke.

Stupid question of the day: is the band something you tie around your ankles to keep from kicking (w/ a buoy? w/o a buoy?), or is it something you tie around your waist and a stationary object on the shore?
I've tried nearly everything else, might as well include this. Once I figure out what "this" is...
Thank you.

http://thetriathlonbook.blogspot.com/...-have-forgotten.html

Search the forum for "ankle band."

Easy - cut up bicycle inner tube. Tie around ankles so it is "snug" (but not like cutting off blood flow). Trim the excess. Go swim. Report back. Don't be alarmed if you believe you are going to drown. That's normal. Smile

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
caf0 wrote:
Quote:
Paddles, pull buoy, and band are technique tools. However, unlike drills, *with adults* the former actually effect changes that stick. In other words, if you bang out long sets with a band, you learn good body position and to hold the water for the length of your stroke.


Stupid question of the day: is the band something you tie around your ankles to keep from kicking (w/ a buoy? w/o a buoy?), or is it something you tie around your waist and a stationary object on the shore?
I've tried nearly everything else, might as well include this. Once I figure out what "this" is...
Thank you.


http://thetriathlonbook.blogspot.com/...-have-forgotten.html

Search the forum for "ankle band."

Easy - cut up bicycle inner tube. Tie around ankles so it is "snug" (but not like cutting off blood flow). Trim the excess. Go swim. Report back. Don't be alarmed if you believe you are going to drown. That's normal. Smile

Do you have to be swimming fairly fast to keep those legs up with that ankle band? Or should you be able to pull it off, say at 1:45/100 pace?
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Do you have to be swimming fairly fast to keep those legs up with that ankle band? Or should you be able to pull it off, say at 1:45/100 pace?

If you don't hear from me tomorrow, the answer is: you have to be swimming fairly fast.
Please tell my family I loved them very much (no lifeguards where I'm heading).
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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seriously, you are really trying to find something to pick on him for it seems. I'm sure there is something we all aren't great at, and really? you think he should spend money and time to hire someone to reread his stuff for professionalism? professionalism to him can be producing winners.
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
http://thetriathlonbook.blogspot.com/...-have-forgotten.html
Search the forum for "ankle band."

Easy - cut up bicycle inner tube. Tie around ankles so it is "snug" (but not like cutting off blood flow). Trim the excess. Go swim. Report back. Don't be alarmed if you believe you are going to drown. That's normal. Smile

Thanks for the blog pointer - good reading (too interesting to just search). If I can report back, that's a good sign :)
I honestly don't think it will be that tough, despite my being an extremely slow swimmer. I have good swim fitness; I'm just really slow. I'll find out tomorrow morning exactly how wrong I am...
Thank you.
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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The faster you swim, the easier it is, but the real key is not speed in the water, it's your ability to consistently apply pressure throughout the length of the stroke. I.e., to catch well and also to finish well. That being said, it's a rare person who both catches well and finishes well who can't swim faster than 1:45/100.

If you are a slow swimmer, start out doing 25s. You can also start the "cheater" way, which is to use a band and also a pull buoy. That will get you used to the drag of the band, though it's best value to your stroke mechanics will come when you swim band only. Paddles & band is also a good way to ease the transition.

But when I was introduced to the band, it was the basic way - put it on and figure it out. Survival is a powerful motivator...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [cervelo-van] [ In reply to ]
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Did he mention anything about all the 11 year old girls in bikinis he has hanging around with him?

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [cobalt] [ In reply to ]
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Barely bigger than your hand is a good start. TYR Catalyst or Strokemakers. Yellow catalysts are good. Green Strokemakers are good. Use finger and wrist straps...at least my opinion. Let's not have another should you use wrist straps or not.


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [-Tex] [ In reply to ]
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-Tex wrote:
Barely bigger than your hand is a good start. TYR Catalyst or Strokemakers. Yellow catalysts are good. Green Strokemakers are good. Use finger and wrist straps...at least my opinion. Let's not have another should you use wrist straps or not.

The paddles are designed to color match. I.e., green strokemakers ~= green catalysts. Yellow ~= yellow.

I think green is the appropriate starting point for most triathletes; red #0.5 if you are "small." I'm biased towards strokemakers now, but I started with catalysts. Joel thought I swam better with the strokemakers. I found them to be very comparable - green was in fact pretty much the same between the two, as was yellow. I've used #3 red in both paddles, but that was a disaster as I certainly wasn't prepared to move paddles that big when I did.

Wrist strapper. And here I had such high opinions of you...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
The faster you swim, the easier it is, but the real key is not speed in the water, it's your ability to consistently apply pressure throughout the length of the stroke. I.e., to catch well and also to finish well. That being said, it's a rare person who both catches well and finishes well who can't swim faster than 1:45/100.

If you are a slow swimmer, start out doing 25s. You can also start the "cheater" way, which is to use a band and also a pull buoy. That will get you used to the drag of the band, though it's best value to your stroke mechanics will come when you swim band only. Paddles & band is also a good way to ease the transition.

But when I was introduced to the band, it was the basic way - put it on and figure it out. Survival is a powerful motivator...

Sold. If it's coming from the mouth of Jordan Rapp, I'm doing it. Even if I drown in the process. Thanks for the advice - am looking forward to a few upcoming weeks of total embarrassment in the pool. I'll have to warn the lifeguards before I start...
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I use red catalysts. I have a pair of yellow as well, but I seldom use those. I feel like the yellow help me keep my turnover, so in one of these posts where you mentioned the band and paddles, I might use yellow. I have always thought that the yellow strokemakers were much bigger than the yellow catalyst...the Mrs.-Tex seems to think that the red catalyst and yellow strokemakers are similar. Whatever :)

Wrist strap...I've done both ways. I don't know, I'm not really 'that' passionate about it! Some are though. I guess I have one leg over each side of that fence.


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Triathletes love to buy crap to make themselves faster. Fact is, 10-20% of a swim workout should include pool toys, max. It's better to do drills and focus in technique without aids. Pull bands, paddles and buoys are more to help with conditioning than technique. At least, that's how most swimmers use them.
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [Chuck Finley] [ In reply to ]
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Chuck Finley wrote:
Triathletes love to buy crap to make themselves faster. Fact is, 10-20% of a swim workout should include pool toys, max. It's better to do drills and focus in technique without aids. Pull bands, paddles and buoys are more to help with conditioning than technique. At least, that's how most swimmers use them.

You need to re-read Brett's post. "Conditioning" is really all that matters (for triathlon). Conditioning *IS* technique, at least in the context of what we are actually discussing - which is open water swimming for the sport of triathlon. Though certain elements of it seem to carry over the sport of open water swimming in general, perhaps due to the incredible distance and non-ideal conditions encountered. It's precisely because bands, paddles and buoys are conditioning tools that they are of value. At least, that is assuming that you actually used conditioning to mean fitness/strength/endurance/whatever-synonym-you-want.

Simply put, it doesn't matter too much "how swimmer's use them." As numerous swimmers on this board have pointed out, it's not about being fast in the pool. It's about being moderately quick (a 48min IM swim is ~1:16/100m pace; that is not "fast" in the strict swimmer sense of the word) in open water. As was pointed out several times in the DPS/SR thread, certain elements of that continue to elude you. Rather than being so convinced of your own correctness, why not consider that the coachES (it's more than just Sutton) who advocate this approach have produced many of the most successful triathletes of the past 20 years. And that many of the most successful triathletes from the decade prior to that, when coaches didn't really exist yet, also employed this approach.

Anything Brett Sutton writes is worth reading once. When it's something that Joel Filliol, Dave Scott, and countless others ALSO embrace, it's worth reading several times.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [Chuck Finley] [ In reply to ]
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chuck, my experiment. did the pull buoy, paddle stuff. Go from 1:4X to 1:2x. Take paddles of and swim 100's on 1:31-1:33. In one week. When I took the paddles off I intentionally though about nothing just let the programming of the previous work take over
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [Ultra-tri-guy] [ In reply to ]
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I'm amazed that this topic has become so complicated but then again this is ST where so much gets missed in the interpretation of what people are trying to say....

Yes a good technique would be ideal but if you don't have the fitness to hold your form in the water then all the drills in the world won't help you once you are out in a wavy lake or rough ocean trying to fight for space with a group of triathletes who are flapping around all over the place trying not to drown....

There is a lot more to open water swimming than trying to get people to look pretty in the pool.


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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [rhys] [ In reply to ]
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rhys wrote:
So folks know, Sutton is dislexic.

Ahh.. so that's the reason he gets 15 & 51 confused
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