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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [flyrunride] [ In reply to ]
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ChampySys does not offer the Apex Speedsuit for that price. A single suit custom made is $720. It's only $240 if you get 10 people to buy in with you. The pricing is interesting. With 5 people, it drops to $480. The Pearl Izumi Octane Tri speedsuit is $300 and going for $180 on Amazon right now

http://champ-sys.com/triathlon/tri-pricelist

http://www.amazon.com/...zumi+Octane+Tri+suit

http://shop.pearlizumi.com/...=1644423&outlet=

I've been looking at these suits for the past 2 weeks. I'd prefer ChampSys but the pricing is tough.

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
Last edited by: BryanD: Jan 30, 14 9:20
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
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+1...

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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but then you have to define your "position" rather loosely to get 10 runs with it in the field or anywhere else unless you are a mannequin. even while attempting to hold the exact same position while not moving in a tunnel there will be slight variations even before fatigue sets in. slightly off in saddle, slightly different hand/fingers, slightly different head height/dip, knee tracking, etc. doing 10 repeats for one point gives you one point on 10 trials which you then avg together. then come race day, you might still be slightly different due to different race wheels/tires affecting the height of the front end vs the rear. tough to win in that case
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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I'm pretty sure the Champion System pricing you're quoting is for custom apparel. It looks like you can buy the speedsuit for $240 with just the Champion System text: http://champ-sys.com/...it.html#.UuqR5NKDmSo
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [dmorris] [ In reply to ]
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Nope, I just got done talking to them about made to order suits with the Champion System text. They said the Apex Suit was not offered

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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With all due respect: I think you have done great work in the past and you have influenced me a lot how I think about bike aerodynamics. However lately it seems like all you do is criticize other peoples work. The last posts I read from you were "not impressed" were you just assumed erosports doesn't measure air density, were you criticized tom anhalts back angle test results, were you critized specialized helmet claims and now in this thread. I also found it funny that you criticized the one guy for talking about his aerodynamics work in a in your mind too advertising way, but one page later upload a huge picture with your method and a " biketechreview data you can trust" sticker on it.
This might be just my perception though.
I think erosports is doing a great job at what their doing. You really notice all the smart thoughts and hard work that they put into it when you try to do sth like they are doing. I am also very thankful for the guys that posted their test results even though they spend their own money on it and could use the knowledge to gain an advantage.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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The point is that there is uncertainty and variability in any testing protocol and you need to know what it is. The errors can be mitigated by doing repeats, but you need to know the variability and the desired resolution to know what the number of repeats should be.

A wind tunnel is certainly not a "take one data point and call it good" environment either. I was able to analyze someone's wind tunnel data a few years back and the scatter there was significantly greater than the resolution he needed. In other words, since most tests were not repeated, the data was worth approximately nothing.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
It's obvious you question the veracity of the testing and I don't think anyone who attended the camp really wants a typical ST showdown of people that think they are smarter than each other. Most of the people who attended the camp know that if they show the specifics it's probably going to end that way (no matter who's right or wrong).

I'm not the person you were answering, but I question the veracity of pretty much everything. This is science... statistical analysis and running controlled tests isn't exactly a black art. If the specifics are revealed, then isn't that a good thing regardless? Good for people who wish to *know* anyway. Not necessarily good for the operators (since it might go either way), but I'd think definitely good for the participants. You should consider yourself lucky that people with knowledge about these things (and no dog in the hunt) would be willing to spend their time for free and post their thoughts and analysis publically! I know I am grateful whenever that happens.

So, head on over to the Velodrome, check it out for yourself, and you can do a grand article on what you think.

I think Kraig could do that pretty easily... I hope he does.

I agree and disagree. I just don't think ST is science and don't put it on the same level as "peer review". I'm not willing to put someone's business out there for people to trash because it's just far to easy for the numbskulls who know nothing to make comments that are damaging.

It's very similar to This

If the discussion were closed to those with actual credentials to discuss the topic at hand, I may have a different opinion.


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Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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BryanD wrote:
ChampySys does not offer the Apex Speedsuit for that price. A single suit custom made is $720. It's only $240 if you get 10 people to buy in with you. The pricing is interesting. With 5 people, it drops to $480. The Pearl Izumi Octane Tri speedsuit is $300 and going for $180 on Amazon right now

http://www.amazon.com/...zumi+Octane+Tri+suit

I've been looking at these suits for the past 2 weeks. I'd prefer ChampSys but the pricing is tough.


Ooowww that Octane is looking good but I don't know about the all black. Seems too hot...Planning WF this year with other long course races that might be warm/hot too. Maybe I'll have to wait for more styles and possibly when they offer tops separately. As per their testing the fit is important so fitting them first and making sure there are no wrinkles before buying would be the best. I'm still tempted to get that Octane for the price though.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [flyrunride] [ In reply to ]
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The material is pretty light, I'd race in a black suit and not worry too much about it and I live in AZ.

But, if I were in your shoes, I might be willing to put off buying something for a few more months. For 3 reasons.
1. A poor fitting suit is probably significantly slower vs your normal tri kit. I might just size down 1 size. That seemed to work well for most people.
2. I rather strongly suspect a few more suits by different manufacturers might be hitting the market this racing season.
3. This one is fact then speculation. There is still a lot of R&D/testing/thinking about patterns going into these suits. Now for the speculation: I think companies are thinking about further refinements to these suits and wondering how to bring those refinements to market.

Brian Stover USAT L1
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Last edited by: desert dude: Jan 30, 14 11:04
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [flyrunride] [ In reply to ]
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yes, but black is "FAST"!

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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yes, but if you are testing there you at least ought to go back to a baseline now and then, whether it is the original baseline or a new established one later on. if you are paying attention, you can get repeated to within a handful a g's. but still that may not be how you end up riding same position in the field. some things are obvious in the tunnel, like a 20w drop or rise and the tunnel folks will note if there is an obvious cause, like you raised your head up from one run to next and will stop and point it out to you and have you rerun. I think I would have some transparent cling material to place over their screen than they could use dry erase markers on to mark indices of position to be sure you are hitting some of the same markers from run to run. Not sure they would, but something you cant do in the field or on velodrome.

I would definitely not argue against checks of baseline from time to time no matter where testing occurring.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [IJ] [ In reply to ]
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IJ wrote:
snip

Thanks for the feedback.

This thread isn't about my publishing history but i feel it is balanced on the whole. You'll note that recently I published tunnel data on tires, a parts list for a wind probe and in this thread I've made suggestions that might improve customer experience (ip cameras).

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [flyrunride] [ In reply to ]
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You can get the exact same top as the Tri Octane for $47 bucks on Amazon. Just google Pearl Izumi Speed Jersey. Its the same top as the Tri Octane i.e. paterned sleeves but for only $47 bucks its hard to pass up.


flyrunride wrote:
BryanD wrote:
ChampySys does not offer the Apex Speedsuit for that price. A single suit custom made is $720. It's only $240 if you get 10 people to buy in with you. The pricing is interesting. With 5 people, it drops to $480. The Pearl Izumi Octane Tri speedsuit is $300 and going for $180 on Amazon right now

http://www.amazon.com/...zumi+Octane+Tri+suit

I've been looking at these suits for the past 2 weeks. I'd prefer ChampSys but the pricing is tough.



Ooowww that Octane is looking good but I don't know about the all black. Seems too hot...Planning WF this year with other long course races that might be warm/hot too. Maybe I'll have to wait for more styles and possibly when they offer tops separately. As per their testing the fit is important so fitting them first and making sure there are no wrinkles before buying would be the best. I'm still tempted to get that Octane for the price though.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not willing to put someone's business out there for people to trash because it's just far to easy for the numbskulls who know nothing to make comments that are damaging.

Do *you* know anything about controlled testing and uncertainty? If not, then *you* are the one making "damaging" comments... damaging to the truth that is.

I know something, and Kraig probably knows a lot. Neither of us is a "troll or spambot" (via your link). You may not like his attitude and he may have an axe to grind (I have no idea), but peer review isn't all warm fuzzies either. I can assure you that I don't have an axe to grind, and based on what I've seen from their prior posts and the information they've shared over the years, I like Jim and Andy quite a lot and wish them all the best. I just want to know what the real deal is because I'm interested in aero testing.

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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You're right....I'll stop talking and let you guys hash it out in good old ST style.

Maybe they should put a disclaimer on the results "for entertainment purposes only - do not try and land planes with information gathered here."

That way everyone knows this is all for fun.


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I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [flyrunride] [ In reply to ]
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flyrunride wrote:
BryanD wrote:
ChampySys does not offer the Apex Speedsuit for that price. A single suit custom made is $720. It's only $240 if you get 10 people to buy in with you. The pricing is interesting. With 5 people, it drops to $480. The Pearl Izumi Octane Tri speedsuit is $300 and going for $180 on Amazon right now

http://www.amazon.com/...zumi+Octane+Tri+suit

I've been looking at these suits for the past 2 weeks. I'd prefer ChampSys but the pricing is tough.



Ooowww that Octane is looking good but I don't know about the all black. Seems too hot...Planning WF this year with other long course races that might be warm/hot too. Maybe I'll have to wait for more styles and possibly when they offer tops separately. As per their testing the fit is important so fitting them first and making sure there are no wrinkles before buying would be the best. I'm still tempted to get that Octane for the price though.


The octane tri suit is very, very paper like thin. It is not hot, it has UPF 50+, and it is the coolest feeling cycling/tri suit I've ever worn. It feels cooler than sleeveless options. I've used it in several humid hot (mid 80s while cycling) races, and never had an issue. Team Sky wears an all black kit, and maybe they share the same properties in cooling.
Last edited by: mcycle: Feb 1, 14 18:31
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
The material is pretty light, I'd race in a black suit and not worry too much about it and I live in AZ.

But, if I were in your shoes, I might be willing to put off buying something for a few more months. For 3 reasons.

Thanks I'll be following your advice good sir. I still have a lot of low hanging fruit to work on anyways (especially on the swim) but trying to squeeze what I can for time goals this year.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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Hello jeffp and All,

jeffp wrote: " I think I would have some transparent cling material to place over their screen than they could use dry erase markers on to mark indices of position to be sure you are hitting some of the same markers from run to run."

Good thought, actually they do (in the SD LSWT wind tunnel) as you can see if you look closely in this photo (grease pencil tracings left over from the last runs I made as a new run, by a different rider, is started) seeing tracings which were used to verify that the rider position is unchanging during the run.

These markings are made full size on the wind tunnel window in the control room as I recall.



I was wearing View-Speed Cyclops glasses and pedaling at a fairly low and consistent
wattage so the sight picture and position were relative easy to maintain - and the data fields are projected in the tunnel real time for the rider to observe so you can see any variations made during the run. I was able to frame the projected data fields in the Cyclops glasses to lock in the position.

Also there is a speaker in the tunnel so the tunnel operators can announce information easily to the test subject if corrections are required. In my case my jersey was riding up my back when I would sit up and stretch after each run ...... and I had to pull it down at the start of each new run. I was impressed that the balance could measure the difference of the seam placement of my jersey ...... also indicating the sensitivity of the airflow over the back to disruption.

Cheers,

Neal

+1 mph Faster


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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Heath. in terms of the PI Octane Tri Suit, what size were you wearing and how much do you weigh, height, chest...thinking of pulling the trigger but interested in sizing comparisons. Thanks so much for giving all the aero info to the ST community :)


Ex-cyclist wrote:
BikeTechReview wrote:
Runless wrote:
Heath is pictured in 16 and 20 and the captions talk about some of his changes. Sounds like clothes and helmet were a big part of things
http://www.slowtwitch.com/..._Aero_Camp_4145.html


thanks for the heads up on the images. his position and equipment in 16 suggests to me that a 14% improvement is indeed extraordinary.

fwiw, a std road helmet to a full-on aero helmet is about a 3% delta at beta=0.


You of all people should know better than to trust the "eye-ball" wind tunnel. And I'm sure you're not suggesting that your eye is better than what they are doing up the road from you at the Velosports Center.

At any rate, my baseline run was .2643. That is what is pictured in number 16. My next change was dropping the armrests down 1cm. that got me to .2507. I then took off the rear bottle which barely moved the needle but did slightly down to .2494. The helmet, as your extensive experience showed you was not a huge CdA dropper, but it did drop it to .2447. The last change was to test in the PI skin suit, that dropped me down to .2267

This seems to jive pretty well with what others have found:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=4165683#4165683


And based on manufacturers claims from companies like Castelli and Pearl, while eye opening, the savings from the suit doesn't seem too far out of line. FWIW, the Kiwami suit is a probably not as tight as it should be (I ordered up a size due to body length which was a mistake) and it exposes a lot more skin than a normal top.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]
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Don't know if Heath saw this. But I've hung out with him enough to know that he's about 6'3 and ~195 but decreasing.

My advice would be to try it on without removing the tags and see how it fits. It there are no wrinkles in the shoulder are and it it tight on the legs, not bunching up elsewhere then you can think about removing the tags.

Brian Stover USAT L1
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Don't know if Heath saw this. But I've hung out with him enough to know that he's about 6'3 and ~195 but decreasing.

My advice would be to try it on without removing the tags and see how it fits. It there are no wrinkles in the shoulder are and it it tight on the legs, not bunching up elsewhere then you can think about removing the tags.

Heath got a medium.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Perfect, thanks so much guys and not just for the info on the PI suit sizing. It's great to see all of you willing to share information that you paid hard earned money for.

Cheers,
Ender
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Don't know if Heath saw this. But I've hung out with him enough to know that he's about 6'3 and ~195 but decreasing.

My advice would be to try it on without removing the tags and see how it fits. It there are no wrinkles in the shoulder are and it it tight on the legs, not bunching up elsewhere then you can think about removing the tags.

188-90 right now.. But I hang my head since I clearly won the fat kid competition at camp. I race at around 178-80. The suit still fit pretty tight in the shoulders and arms. It just fit a bit tighter around the middle at AeroCamp



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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good to know. I was going to get medium but at 5"10 and 150 -155 I expect the fit will not be tight enough. I'll give small a go.
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