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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [mongooseman] [ In reply to ]
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mongooseman wrote:
Yup. It’s weak.


As is your last two comments when you know I'm right. Why and how people become loyal fanboys of commercial companies is beyond me. I had plenty of Apple stuff in the past, phones, computers, tablets and watches. But when they fell behind why on earth would you not move to a superior product? They aren't a sports team...

Why would I even consider a Ultra, I can get 2 weeks battery life out of my Garmin, no accidental screen activations, does everything perfectly I need it to for a multi sport watch. The only thing it doesn't do that I'd like is make and receive calls. If and when Apple make a watch that has comparable battery life then we can talk. Even Samsung Galaxy 5 watch can get up to 80 hours. Like I was saying Apple have been left behind.

At the moment what do they have, up to 18 hour battery on LTE, and after years of accidental screen activations they now have a 'action button' lol don't you love how they spin drip feeding corrections to their oversights as new features....yeah truely groundbreaking innovation..

That big black 'dynamic island', you just know there is no way on earth Jobs would have let that go to market...
Last edited by: lastlap: Oct 2, 22 0:57
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [lastlap] [ In reply to ]
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You’re right - anyone slavishly loyal to any corporation is a clown. I’ve had Garmin since the 305. I’ve also raced with Polar and Suunto. At NO POINT have I stated that one brand was any better than another. I consider myself fortunate that I am in a position to buy any and all of the options that interest me, and get rid of the ones that no longer meet my needs when the time comes.

What’s actually sad is that commenting on a damn watch generates echoes of the Trumpian division that the US and other places are now so damaged by. I couldn’t care less what you or anyone else chooses to buy or use, but I absolutely guarantee you that Apple taking an interest in the endurance sports market is a move that should make every other actor in the space very nervous. To deny that is nonsensical. Have a nice day.

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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [mongooseman] [ In reply to ]
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As an ex Apple employee I'd have hoped you could have discussed the issues. Surely you would have to recognise they are nothing like the company they once were. But instead you deflect with irrelevant nonsense about Trump...?

And back to my original comment that drew your ire-yes Apple are a joke and treat their customers like chumps. Or do you really think the limit of their technological ability is a 18 hour battery?? No of course not, especially when there are so many companies already far in excess of this. But next year they can drip feed a slightly longer battery life knowing their loyal base will lap it up..
Last edited by: lastlap: Oct 2, 22 0:44
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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BryanD wrote:
mongooseman wrote:
I didn’t put up any “goalposts” to move - but as always whenever Apple does something new, the conversation devolves into tribalism very quickly. Again, I really don’t understand why you’re even bringing up medical nursing care…it’s not relevant to the product.


It’s because they know their Garmins are not so special now. Their arguments mirror political rants.

You're right. We don't need either device. Or even a digital watch. You can map your run out on mapmyrun or even Google maps and use a dive watch to keep track of time. So why are we talking about Apple.

The point is Apple isn't going to create a good multi-sport watch, likely ever. The way people use that watch primarily does not lend to week-long battery life.

I'm probably different than most, but as I saw the battery drain from messaging on my Fenix 5x I turned that function off. Not a fan and I have thing called a phone.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [mongooseman] [ In reply to ]
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I’ve found that when people start arguing about specs on electronics for things they will never use, the argument is over. It’s not worth engaging. Does anyone on here even use a 7 day battery life? Let’s be realistic. Most of the people here go do their run, bike, or swim and then charge their watch at night. Or, they switch to a Samsung or Apple Watch.

People who argue whose specs are better miss the entire point of Apple and fail to understand why Apple is one of the most successful companies in the world.

Before anyone yells at me, I was a Garmin user.

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
Last edited by: BryanD: Oct 2, 22 3:44
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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I totally agree.

Being Slowtwitch (which I love) this thread was always going to jump the shark but I have to admit that it happened more quickly and more emphatically than I expected :).
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [mongooseman] [ In reply to ]
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BryanD wrote:
This is a lot of complaining about stuff that has no bearing toward tracking a run. Garmin is not special.
mongooseman wrote:
I didn’t put up any “goalposts” to move - but as always whenever Apple does something new, the conversation devolves into tribalism very quickly. Again, I really don’t understand why you’re even bringing up medical nursing care…it’s not relevant to the product.
You moved the goalposts when you moved away from feature and performance to your personal device failure and said that does not happen with Apple. It is patently false. Apple is not special when it comes to product defects and quality. And they are especially not special when it comes to optimizing a product to a specific purpose.

The nurse application is there because it illustrates a general problem Apple has truly refining a product to excellence.

Garmin/Suunto/Polar/Wahoo/Coros are special. They are special in that they have specialized their products to a specific purpose. They make timing devices first and then smart watch capabilities are secondary. Apple is not special in that the Apple Watch is a generalist prioritize being a smart watch computer first and a timing device is secondary. Those differences massively impact user experience and ability to achieve excellence for the purpose.

Apple should partner with a company that knows running and multipsort to build their timing app. That is what they are doing with diving. And it is de facto what has happened with surfing. As long as the watch is hamstrung with the current incantation of its workout app, it will struggle to compete alongside true multisport watches.

I think that you are the one who has gone tribal by not recognizing the challenges the product faces in its category and being completely ignorant of its quality and performance issues.
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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BryanD wrote:
I’ve found that when people start arguing about specs on electronics for things they will never use, the argument is over. It’s not worth engaging. Does anyone on here even use a 7 day battery life? Let’s be realistic. Most of the people here go do their run, bike, or swim and then charge their watch at night. Or, they switch to a Samsung or Apple Watch.

People who argue whose specs are better miss the entire point of Apple and fail to understand why Apple is one of the most successful companies in the world.

Before anyone yells at me, I was a Garmin user.


Apple watch users definitely don't use the watch to get max battery life. Garmin users? Varies. But for now I wear it every day and got rid of everything like text messaging and alerts that drained the battery.

Apple stopped attempting to compete in the computer space against PCs. It kept their premium price point and pivoted to mp3 players. Now Apple didn't get all the market share with the iPod. But it got the dominant one or at least the socially dominant one. But it used that process to get into Smart Phones and now has a key part of the market but isn't really the dominant phone in the market. Just socially dominant. Which is again what they've done with the Apple watch.

I have an MacBook. But you'll never find me with a iPhone or an Apple Watch.

Zippy303 wrote:
What do I know but DC rainmaker is calling it too on his initial AW review so I will default to him. He says Apple is for sure coming for a good chunk of Garmin users.

Is he? Watched the review. The only sensor this watch can pair to is a blue tooth HR sensor...why would you even do that when have the wrist based HRM, other than if you were swimming. And the fish tell me they don't even swim with watches, so why would they use an HRM?

Also, can't load courses onto your watch either like you can with Garmin. Either load a non-native app or just have a Garmin.

In the video, he clearly states that this is a multi-sport deficient watch. Can apple hire engineers to fix their deficiencies? Certainly they can, but should they?

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
Last edited by: TheStroBro: Oct 2, 22 8:18
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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I wear my Coros Pace watch all the time. I have to charge it about every other week. I also record all my runs on it. Everyone I know who has a Garmin Fenix or 955 also wears theirs all the time. They definitely wear it overnight, as they want to capture the sleep metrics (and now HRV metrics). Almost no one I know takes their’s off after a workout, or charges it overnight.
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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BryanD wrote:
I’ve found that when people start arguing about specs on electronics for things they will never use, the argument is over. It’s not worth engaging. Does anyone on here even use a 7 day battery life? Let’s be realistic. Most of the people here go do their run, bike, or swim and then charge their watch at night. Or, they switch to a Samsung or Apple Watch.

People who argue whose specs are better miss the entire point of Apple and fail to understand why Apple is one of the most successful companies in the world.

Before anyone yells at me, I was a Garmin user.

You don't want people discussing specs because it shows that the Apple devices are clearly inferior. What else is there to discuss when comparing devices...? Looks perhaps, but very subjective and individual.

As for taking your watch off every night to charge what a pain in the a.., plus more importantly 'most' people leave their watches on especially now that Garmin has HRV tracking. The only bad thing about having a long battery life is you forget that you actually have to charge it occasionally.

As for why Apple are one of the most successful companies, well as I said they used to be cutting edge but that time has long passed. They are just fortunate they still have a base of loyal fans who will lap up what ever spin they dish out... As this thread has shown.
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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BryanD wrote:
I’ve found that when people start arguing about specs on electronics for things they will never use, the argument is over. It’s not worth engaging. Does anyone on here even use a 7 day battery life? Let’s be realistic. Most of the people here go do their run, bike, or swim and then charge their watch at night. Or, they switch to a Samsung or Apple Watch.

People who argue whose specs are better miss the entire point of Apple and fail to understand why Apple is one of the most successful companies in the world.

Before anyone yells at me, I was a Garmin user.

Battery life on a multi-sport watch is pretty important to me. Maybe I put too much emphasis on it, but I like the fact that I don't have to charge my Polar Vantage M more than once every 7-10 days.

I think I fit squarely in the Apple Ultra target demographic:
1. Apple user: iMac, MacBook, iPad, iPhone
2. Endurance athlete
3. 30-40 year old demographic
4. Enough disposable income to afford it

Yet this watch doesn't even register on my radar as something I am the least bit interested in. I want a watch from a company that specializes in multi-sport. As much of a powerhouse as apple is, this just seems outside of their wheelhouse. Maybe they convince me otherwise in a few years, but the price point needs to drop quite a bit, battery life needs to beef up, and features need to step-up.

As I said earlier in the thread, I can go out today and get a Coros Pace 2 for $200 that is going to serve my needs just fine. Apple has a lot of work to convince me that their watch is worth another $450-500.
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [Parkland] [ In reply to ]
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Which Coros watch is the competitor of the Garmin 955?
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [Zippy303] [ In reply to ]
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Not giving up my Garmin (Epix2) anytime soon. I do think at some point (a few years), Apple's Software will be magnitudes better. I don't see Garmin competing with Apple in terms of Software. Apple will win this war.
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [Nerd] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think the market is big enough (for Apple's market) for Apple to care and throw recourses at this project
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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I just think the standard software on all Apple watches will be better than Garmin at some point in the future.
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
I don't think the market is big enough (for Apple's market) for Apple to care and throw recourses at this project

They didn't release the Ultra for no reason. I'm not following your point.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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The GMAN wrote:
jaretj wrote:
I don't think the market is big enough (for Apple's market) for Apple to care and throw recourses at this project


They didn't release the Ultra for no reason. I'm not following your point.

Yeah, Apple will certainly try to focus on multisport. However I think this watch will be more of a "jack of all trades, master of none", in the sense that it'll never do pure multi-sport activities as well as Garmin and Wahoo. Design limitations that focus on ease of use and user experience (like a touch screen) will certainly keep me firmly rooted in the Garmin ecosystem for now.
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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I think part of the swirl on this topic is that the subject is way too broad. It's a no-brainer that Apple is aiming for the endurance athlete market. They made that abundantly clear in 2015 when they were sponsoring Christy Turlington Burns and then in 2016 with the Nike+ edition. And that is again super clear now with a triathlon mode and ads claiming the Ultra can cover a 140.6.

Apple is probably not "coming for Garmin" across their entire running and multisport product suite. But they probably are targeting the niche within the endurance market of people who do some triathlons and distance running but do not care about the watch's performance. Just because of the nature of the AW platform, it will always have many little behavioral and performance compromises relative to a pure multisport watch. So, there is a segment of buyers that would probably never consider an AW. However, there is a healthy segment that probably would.

Consider that Garmin has a broad range of products directly in this space from the Forerunner 55 at $200 USD to the Enduro watches at $1,100 USD.

Only Apple knows the part of that market they are targeting, but my gut feel is that they are unlikely to get many people considering a 255 or 55, simply due to cost. And someone dropping $1K on a multisport watch is probably buying it for its looks and image, not its technical features. So that buyer would be unlikely to downgrade to an Ultra. A triathlete who regularly trains and races with a watch is also unlikely to pick an Apple Watch due to its compromises and fragmented platform. So, which is it?

My hunch is that they would likely get buyers of something like the epix or fenix. Those buyers are choosing those watches because they are something different from a pure triathlon watch, and they fall in the price range of the Ultra. For the epix, it would be the amazing screen (which equals or betters the AW screens). For the fenix, it might be the extreme battery life, style, or rugged look. My hunch is that Garmin probably won't see many regular triathletes or ultra athletes defecting from the 255 and 955 lines. At least not for a very long time.
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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The GMAN wrote:
jaretj wrote:
I don't think the market is big enough (for Apple's market) for Apple to care and throw recourses at this project

They didn't release the Ultra for no reason. I'm not following your point.

This is completely conjecture on my part:

They are going to find that this watch doesn't make much money compared to their phones, computers, ipods, tablets, etc... which they sell by the millions.

When they realize they are only going to sell a few hundred thousand multisport watches at most, they are going to back away from the project.
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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One more thought... I think the watches with the biggest threat are Wahoo RIVAL & Suunto 9. Here's my thinking... The Garmin 955 (and even the 255) is the pointy end of the spear for total performance. They are perfected for multisport and they do everything in a fully vertically integrated ecosystem, while horizontally integrating with nearly every other platform in existence. Wahoo and Suunto probably get a lot of buyers who do not want an everything watch and do not want a Garmin. So, the Ultra could be a sweet alternative to those buyers.

I bet that the Ultra is a greater threat to the Suunto 9 Peak first and then the Wahoo RIVAL second.
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
Which Coros watch is the competitor of the Garmin 955?

Not really sure. Maybe the Apex Pro? I haven’t really compared garmin to coros models. I think the 955 may be more feature rich, but may cost a bit more.

I’m currently using a Polar Vantage M that does all that I need, though the Coros Pace 2 for $199 is tempting. If they have a big Black Friday sale, I may just jump on one.
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [Parkland] [ In reply to ]
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From their website, it looks to me like the Apex Pro as well.

I'd really like to see one in person.
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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exxxviii wrote:
One more thought... I think the watches with the biggest threat are Wahoo RIVAL & Suunto 9. Here's my thinking... The Garmin 955 (and even the 255) is the pointy end of the spear for total performance. They are perfected for multisport and they do everything in a fully vertically integrated ecosystem, while horizontally integrating with nearly every other platform in existence. Wahoo and Suunto probably get a lot of buyers who do not want an everything watch and do not want a Garmin. So, the Ultra could be a sweet alternative to those buyers.

I bet that the Ultra is a greater threat to the Suunto 9 Peak first and then the Wahoo RIVAL second.

i woud certainly not say that garmin devices are perfected - every single one i've had up to and including the 955 has significant bugs, not to mention usability niggles. i suspect what you really mean is that they are specifically designed for multisport which is absolutely true and something apple are unlikely to ever match.

i'd also question how well integrated the garmin ecosystem is - i just had to get my 955 replaced due to said bugs and that meant going back to scratch with setup and the device having to learn my hrv patterns etc, despite having previously established all this. physio trueup between my edge and my forerunner is limited too as a result of mismatched feature sets, despite both being latest generation.

garmin have a lot of work to do to achieve what is generally expected of consumer technology these days. a lot of those expectations were established by apple and they remain well ahead of garmin in that respect which for many less serious athletes will more than make up for the less sport specific features.

but yes, garmin may well benefit from apple taking out the other competitors first
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [pk1] [ In reply to ]
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pk1 wrote:
i suspect what you really mean is that they are specifically designed for multisport which is absolutely true and something apple are unlikely to ever match.

i'd also question how well integrated the garmin ecosystem is
Yes, the context of my statement is that Garmin's design is optimized (perfected) for multisport use. They are not perfect quality. Garmin is by far the most vertically integrated platform of any brand, by a lot. Wahoo is emerging, but they do not have a viable web tier and only a couple device categories. Suunto and Hammerhead have a killer partnership, but their web tier and product breadth are limited. Coros and Polar are also relatively basic in this space. Fitbit is probably more integrated than most. Apple is probably most simlar to Coros and Polar, if they are even that good, so they probably have the furthest to go. The cliche "there's an app for that" is not effective in this space. I think that Apple will need to take ownership of the app fragmentation - either directly or through partnerships - to get quality and user experience where it needs to be to compete.

You can throw little pebbles like your HRV re-onboarding or true-up limitations with older devices. But Garmin is still way out ahead of everyone else. The true-up things will go away as they roll out the rest of their Edge x40 bike computer suite. I do wish they would share HRV, SPO2, and other metrics across devices, but I think they have some intentional reason for keeping things like HRV data on-device.
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Re: Apple (watch) is coming for Garmin [pk1] [ In reply to ]
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pk1 wrote:
exxxviii wrote:
One more thought... I think the watches with the biggest threat are Wahoo RIVAL & Suunto 9. Here's my thinking... The Garmin 955 (and even the 255) is the pointy end of the spear for total performance. They are perfected for multisport and they do everything in a fully vertically integrated ecosystem, while horizontally integrating with nearly every other platform in existence. Wahoo and Suunto probably get a lot of buyers who do not want an everything watch and do not want a Garmin. So, the Ultra could be a sweet alternative to those buyers.

I bet that the Ultra is a greater threat to the Suunto 9 Peak first and then the Wahoo RIVAL second.

i woud certainly not say that garmin devices are perfected - every single one i've had up to and including the 955 has significant bugs, not to mention usability niggles. i suspect what you really mean is that they are specifically designed for multisport which is absolutely true and something apple are unlikely to ever match.

i'd also question how well integrated the garmin ecosystem is - i just had to get my 955 replaced due to said bugs and that meant going back to scratch with setup and the device having to learn my hrv patterns etc, despite having previously established all this. physio trueup between my edge and my forerunner is limited too as a result of mismatched feature sets, despite both being latest generation.

garmin have a lot of work to do to achieve what is generally expected of consumer technology these days. a lot of those expectations were established by apple and they remain well ahead of garmin in that respect which for many less serious athletes will more than make up for the less sport specific features.

but yes, garmin may well benefit from apple taking out the other competitors first

What significant bug have you had with the 955?
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