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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned through the thread already but Cam Wurf doesn't run them in Kona and he has done all the tunnel and associated testing. People can say trust the data but as someone that had worked with Contador in a thread the other week said that the Zipp wheel tested faster but he still felt the Hed H3 was faster and always used it. The same goes for me with clinchers and tubulars. I have tried clinchers with and without latex but I still like the feeling to tubulars and to me they feel faster despite what data says. It's all minimal gains so I use what is most practical, I enjoy and and sometimes economical.

Cause pro cyclists and pro triathletes have never made bad equipment choices.

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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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Is your point about Wurf making a bad choice? If so I would do some research on him and what goes into his bike and testing...
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
I am running Continental tubs no latex at the moment and they are as fast as any tub I've run. My point was though if it feels just as fast it most probably is. The data says a clincher with latex tubes is faster than a tub but I personally don't find it to be the case. No data just race times and more based on feel.

It's fine to say you prefer it, or that it feels faster. Which is fine. But it doesn't sound like you can claim that it *is* faster.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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That is true so what do you believe? The data where you are unsure the specifics of how tested or what feels faster as my point was with Contador and my original post. I like to ride what feels faster or as in the OP post at least as fast.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
Is your point about Wurf making a bad choice? If so I would do some research on him and what goes into his bike and testing...

Yes he's making a bad choice and I know who Wurf is. You state he's done tunnel testing and associated testing. Define associated testing because tunnel testing has nothing to do the gains made from latex tubes.

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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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Yes I am aware of that tunnel testing has no bearing on rolling resistance. He has done every test, he even swum in a flume testing swim skins ffs. He said he didn't see the point in the higher risk of puncturing for such minimal gains. He was well aware of chosing a latex over a butyl tube.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
That is true so what do you believe? The data where you are unsure the specifics of how tested or what feels faster as my point was with Contador and my original post. I like to ride what feels faster or as in the OP post at least as fast.

That's fine. I don't put much stock in Contador. Awesome cyclist and genius tactician, and I would certainly hesitate to question his choices for himself. Nor do I have any issue with you making choices for yourself. Use butyl! But I would certainly hesitate to use Contador's or your choices for myself.

I prefer testing where I get a number. I have a local velodrome, so I do a lot of ABABAB testing, Chung testing, etc. If the numbers are ambiguous, I got with what feels or looks best. If they're not ambiguous, I go with the faster thing. Of course not being a blind test (single, much less double) I could be subconsciously favoring things, even when using constant power or Chung, in which case I could be right back to where you are (going by feel). But generally I think when there's a significant difference, the truth will often emerge. Latex tests faster for me. And if feels better.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
Yes I am aware of that tunnel testing has no bearing on rolling resistance. He has done every test, he even swum in a flume testing swim skins ffs. He said he didn't see the point in the higher risk of puncturing for such minimal gains. He was well aware of chosing a latex over a butyl tube.

So he admits that latex tubes are actually faster just like all the data has shown and 98% of the people are saying on here. He just chooses not to run them.

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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
Yes I am aware of that tunnel testing has no bearing on rolling resistance. He has done every test, he even swum in a flume testing swim skins ffs. He said he didn't see the point in the higher risk of puncturing for such minimal gains. He was well aware of chosing a latex over a butyl tube.

Again, latex has a lower risk of puncturing. Whether or not it feels like it.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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Very overrated. I prefer to go bareback.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned through the thread already but Cam Wurf doesn't run them in Kona and he has done all the tunnel and associated testing. People can say trust the data but as someone that had worked with Contador in a thread the other week said that the Zipp wheel tested faster but he still felt the Hed H3 was faster and always used it. The same goes for me with clinchers and tubulars. I have tried clinchers with and without latex but I still like the feeling to tubulars and to me they feel faster despite what data says. It's all minimal gains so I use what is most practical, I enjoy and and sometimes economical.

And this is where our "feelings" can lead us to make less than optimal choices. I missed the other thread on Contador, but I remember reading an interview about Contador and the H3. He'd test both wheels and would be faster on the H3. Then they'd check the power meter and Contador went harder when he used the H3. That makes it look like using the H3 motivated him. I think that can work for TTs where you have an hour or less effort for a day. But I wonder if pushing a few watts too hard on the bike can lead to a blow up on the run. Minimal gains aren't really minimal. They add up. It's fairly easy to do the math on the savings on latex clincher vs. non-latex tubulars over a half or full bike leg. If you placed second by less than that amount, would you still be comfortable with your choice?

Full disclosure: I like the feeling of tubulars, too. I'm on tubulars with latex. My wheels "supposedly" tested faster than 808s and were only available as tubulars and I'm not willing to buy new wheels. Also, I only do TTs on them. I use clinchers with latex for my other road races.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [jstonebarger] [ In reply to ]
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jstonebarger wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
Yes I am aware of that tunnel testing has no bearing on rolling resistance. He has done every test, he even swum in a flume testing swim skins ffs. He said he didn't see the point in the higher risk of puncturing for such minimal gains. He was well aware of chosing a latex over a butyl tube.


Again, latex has a lower risk of puncturing. Whether or not it feels like it.

I'm sure Wurf is short of good advisors. Could you pass that on to him?
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
Yes I am aware of that tunnel testing has no bearing on rolling resistance. He has done every test, he even swum in a flume testing swim skins ffs. He said he didn't see the point in the higher risk of puncturing for such minimal gains. He was well aware of chosing a latex over a butyl tube.


So he admits that latex tubes are actually faster just like all the data has shown and 98% of the people are saying on here. He just chooses not to run them.
Seems that way for such minimal gains
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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Depends who's wearing it.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
Is your point about Wurf making a bad choice? If so I would do some research on him and what goes into his bike and testing...


Yes he's making a bad choice and I know who Wurf is. You state he's done tunnel testing and associated testing. Define associated testing because tunnel testing has nothing to do the gains made from latex tubes.

Lol only on ST do you have guys who know more than ex tour and Kona record holders...
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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dunno wrote:
stevej wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
Is your point about Wurf making a bad choice? If so I would do some research on him and what goes into his bike and testing...


Yes he's making a bad choice and I know who Wurf is. You state he's done tunnel testing and associated testing. Define associated testing because tunnel testing has nothing to do the gains made from latex tubes.


Lol only on ST do you have guys who know more than ex tour and Kona record holders...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority


Bring data. Opinions don't count.


...or does someone have to rattle off all the ridiculously terrible equipment choice the pros have used in the past? These repeated threads are so tedious.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
....My point was though if it feels just as fast it most probably is....
I really don't think that point is defensible. Certainly not when we're talking about small margins like this and when the component in question likely effects sensations of road vibration and road noise which are integral to your perception of speed. I don't think you can have any confidence whatsoever in your ability to "feel" small differences in how fast a setup is.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Ai_1 wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
....My point was though if it feels just as fast it most probably is....

I really don't think that point is defensible. Certainly not when we're talking about small margins like this and when the component in question likely effects sensations of road vibration and road noise which are integral to your perception of speed. I don't think you can have any confidence whatsoever in your ability to "feel" small differences in how fast a setup is.


Thread Hijack
Totally agree, but do any of you feel like you're having a really bad day when the chain sounds bad? :-)
A day when the power numbers read about the same as when it is freshly lubed or waxed, but the sound alone all the sudden makes you feel like you are pushing against a wall. Such a mental thing for me is that drive train sound. Ugh! Anyone else relate? Don't need to answer. It was me thinking out loud about mental or perceived things on the bike.
Last edited by: Felt_Rider: Feb 21, 19 3:43
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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dunno wrote:
Lol only on ST do you have guys who know more than ex tour and Kona record holders...

Well, the folks on ST are undoubtedly not nearly as good athletes, no one is disputing that. But the question here is not if they're better athletes, but if they "know" more, i.e., have better technical knowledge. And yes, it's quite possible (although no certainty) that SOME of the folks here have better technical knowledge than world class athletes. There's not necessarily a correlation between athletic ability and technical knowledge. Now, usually world class athletes have access to people with that kind of technical knowledge, but even those people are sometimes wrong or prone to believing long-held myths, and if they are right sometimes the athlete doesn't listen to them.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [jstonebarger] [ In reply to ]
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jstonebarger wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
Yes I am aware of that tunnel testing has no bearing on rolling resistance. He has done every test, he even swum in a flume testing swim skins ffs. He said he didn't see the point in the higher risk of puncturing for such minimal gains. He was well aware of chosing a latex over a butyl tube.


Again, latex has a lower risk of puncturing. Whether or not it feels like it.

Probably the issue here is that latex is more prone to installation error and also potentially more susceptible to equipment issues such as a bad rim strip, etc. That gets conflated with being more prone to puncturing. The installation errors are really not that hard to avoid, and in conjunction with routine inspection of the wheel when you change tubes, in my experience latex can be extremely reliable. And I did earlier post the anecdote about riding half of a 56 mile bike leg with a tack in my tire using latex tubes, so I'm sold. Of course, none of that applies to latex tubes in tubular tires; the only reason I can think of not to use a tubular with a latex tube is if your choice of tire isn't available with latex tubes.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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No, you aren't the only one. I've been running latex 100% of the time for around 5 years now. Looking at my orders on Amazon, that has required buying 17 tubes (4 currently in bikes and 2 currently as spares). So figure about 2 flats a year using latex riding almost every day (last few years winter is Zwift land or MTB, but prior to that almost entirely outside). In terms of speed, they both feel faster to me and measure faster. So for me, they are great. That said I've tried to talk some friends into using them with mixed success at best. One super experienced cyclist friend tried them and after a few unexplained flats bailed. Not sure whether they are just bad at install, have bad rim tape, or just bad luck, but their experience is very different from mine. But from their perspective they are expensive and troublesome. So YMMV. Sounds like you largely understand the issue and at least aren't just choosing butyle out of ignorance. Seems fair to me.

ETA: When reviewing my Amazon orders, I just noticed them selling the Silca bundle that includes a tube, valve extender and speedshield. Since one of my failure modes for my tubes is them breaking at the valve stem due to stress from daily pumping, this seems like a nice improvement. That plus the free .5w from the speedshield. But if you are skeptical about latex benefits, I'm betting you won't care about the speedshield. For me, I also want to support Josh@Silca.
Last edited by: jbank: Feb 21, 19 5:13
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [jbank] [ In reply to ]
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I've had a vasectomy, so no need for latex here.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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With or without anaethesia?
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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dunno wrote:
stevej wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
Is your point about Wurf making a bad choice? If so I would do some research on him and what goes into his bike and testing...


Yes he's making a bad choice and I know who Wurf is. You state he's done tunnel testing and associated testing. Define associated testing because tunnel testing has nothing to do the gains made from latex tubes.


Lol only on ST do you have guys who know more than ex tour and Kona record holders...


Do we need to go over all the bad decisions by professionals? Trust me, the ST collective is far smarter than the pro collective when it comes to nerdy science and engineering stuff. For the one methodical pro that obsesses about equipment choices (like Rapp) you have five dumbasses like Andy Potts.

Edit - I’m talking about Potts’ equipment intellect and not his actual intellect before someone quotes me his SAT scores or something. 😁

Favorite Gear: Dimond | TriRig | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
Last edited by: The GMAN: Feb 21, 19 6:21
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:
With or without anaethesia?

Without. And some liquor afterwards.
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