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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [gbot] [ In reply to ]
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Actually it really doesn't give them quite the carte blanche you might think. If they start calling for strip-searches and full-body cavity searches but only of the women, I'm pretty sure they're going to be in big trouble.

But that is beside the point. No one ever denied that they CAN implement drug testing. No one ever denied that the consumer has the option of not participating. In fact I've said that about 3 times now. What point exactly do you think you are debating here?.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [gbot] [ In reply to ]
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The fact of the matter is that Ironman is owned and operated by a private company who have every right to make you do all sorts of valid or invalid, reasonable or downright silly things in order to participate in their event.

If they write into the rules that everyone has to show up at bike check wearing a dunce cap and clown shoes, that's their right and your option as a consumer is simply to either get in line, or spend your money elsewhere.
No, he also (as someone else pointed out earlier) has the right to question the decision, and make his displeasure known. It may not affect the outcome (wear the cap or don't race), but he does have the right to be heard.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Heard by whom? People on a public message board? Or the people in charge of the event?
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Actually it really doesn't give them quite the carte blanche you might think. If they start calling for strip-searches and full-body cavity searches but only of the women, I'm pretty sure they're going to be in big trouble.

But that is beside the point. No one ever denied that they CAN implement drug testing. No one ever denied that the consumer has the option of not participating. In fact I've said that about 3 times now. What point exactly do you think you are debating here?.
My point is that when you're dealing with a private company (notwithstanding things that are clearly illegal) the options are put up or shut up, and all the chatter is just that - chatter.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [gbot] [ In reply to ]
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The entire point of this thread was just chatter. Why are you here otherwise?

We are debating the rules and what changes should be made. I think a change that should be made is that is should only be for those who can win money.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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You know the AG triathlon crowd. These people take all manner of supplements like candy. If they are told it will help with anything, they'll take it, no questions asked, on the spot.

Fleck,

With all due respect ... for someone who makes a living selling things to AG triathletes you sure do repeatedly demonstrate a profound lack of respect for you customer base. I value your input as "an old school guy" and have found many gems of advice amongst your numerous "back in the day ..." posts, but this continuous bashing of your clientele gets old. Frankly, I doubt I would buy anything from you ... as I would always feel that you would be laughing at me right after I left.

Carry on.

===============
Amen, bitches!
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I voted for the drug testing with changes or more accurately more information on the testing. So maybe it was not with changes but more clarification. Regarding out of competition testing, how would it play out if they showed up at my work? I am in a relatively senior level finance position with a large banking client. The building is secured and access to floors and elevators is controlled. 75% of my day is spent in meetings with the client. If chosen for a test and they showed up to the building would someone be required to leave a client meeting and take a doping test? It may not be a public event but make no mistake the building secuirty would find out about the drug test and the rumors would fly.

With all that said like others I am for the testing and would welcome the more level playing field or knowing that wtc was making an effort to ensure we all race by the rules. It took me 8 years to qualify for Kona and I missed a spot by one position twice with one time being less than 20 seconds. Yes, I take this hobby serious and it does matter to me that we abide by the rules. I can understand others perspective that it does not matter to them but it does to me and it seems other posting here as well.

Reading the list of banned substances and it does not seem to be overly challenging to stay clear of the substances? I do not take supplements other then Glucosamine and Chondroitin. Regarding a TUE, the WTC could help its cause by better communicating how it plans to hande TUE's.

Just my 2 cents on top of all the other banter,

Peace,
RF
Last edited by: rockfish: Sep 16, 09 10:32
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [CaptainCanada] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
You know the AG triathlon crowd. These people take all manner of supplements like candy. If they are told it will help with anything, they'll take it, no questions asked, on the spot.

Fleck,

With all due respect ... for someone who makes a living selling things to AG triathletes you sure do repeatedly demonstrate a profound lack of respect for you customer base. I value your input as "an old school guy" and have found many gems of advice amongst your numerous "back in the day ..." posts, but this continuous bashing of your clientele gets old. Frankly, I doubt I would buy anything from you ... as I would always feel that you would be laughing at me right after I left.

Carry on.
Funny, because I actually gave more thought to buying a Nineteen because of Fleck's willingness to give his 'real' opinion on the forums, and not act like a sales guy where he's just trying to avoid pissing people off. The fact that he often gives advice on buying a wetsuit which may result in the person buying a different brand than his own really impressed me.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [gbot] [ In reply to ]
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Heard by whom? People on a public message board? Or the people in charge of the event?
Yes.

He can write about it here (like he's doing), he can write letters to industry magazines, WTC, the dog groomer on the corner, pretty much anyone he wants to. Will it change anything? Maybe. Maybe not.

Now, if he wants to RACE, then yes, he has two options. Don't race or accept the conditions. Outside of that, he has many options. He does have some good points, if you actually read through his arguments.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [gbot] [ In reply to ]
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"My point is that when you're dealing with a private company (notwithstanding things that are clearly illegal) the options are put up or shut up, and all the chatter is just that - chatter."

Your point is false; there are more than two options. The chatter itself can lead to negotiations, which then lead to rule changes that help the WTC avoid bad publicity (we can call it the third option). Once the rules change, you still have three or more options, including put up, shut up, or get the rules changed again. Think of chatter as "community organizing" or maybe forming an alliance to vote the bad positions off the island, and you'll have a better understanding of what can be done. We like to make things black and white, but in most developed countries, due process is a recognized right (and large private companies generally observe it by tradition with things like their "customer service department", although they don't have to) and then there's a lot of room for gray. As an example, how many penalized drafters do you know who don't appeal their penalties to the race director?

I think the last thing the WTC wants is a bunch of media attention with article headlines such as "New WTC Drug Testing Irks Racers", or "Conflicts Emerge with New WTC Drug Testing Protocol." You think it's just chatter, but the WTC doesn't make much of its money from impersonal government contracts. The money comes directly from customers who use the service, with some additional fees from cities and brand licensing.

You can mock "chatter" all you want, but it's more powerful than you think.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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no one has still answered my question, whether they are willing to foot this bill for this through increased entry fees.

But, Dan, your estimate of a $20 blood test is way off. Urine alone, is $400-500, and that is probably not testing for EPO, and about the most basic test you can get. Blood only goes up from there, as you need someone certified to take it.

I don't even want to know what the biological passport would cost.

I don't know that most of you guys realize what kind of a budget USADA and WADA work with. It is Huge! To think that WTC would even through a fraction of their own money at this, without charging you more, is just laughable.

Their professional testing is laughable.

And Fleck makes a good point. When you are being test, esp. in OOC, you have to be very careful of where you go, what you take, what you eat, who gave you what. This is an inconvenience that I am will to bet almost no age grouper would actually want. You get to tell them where you will be every hour of the day for the next 4 months.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck...what do Dmitri Gaag and Brigitte McMahon, both World/Olympic Champions have anything in common?

I believe in Germany the Ironman pros are part of the DTU out of competition pool, so your wide sweeping statement that Ironman guys don't get tested in other countries is not entirely accurate.

I'm with Eganski wrt to what you've posted. The closest many of us come to doping is Starbucks or Japanese Green tea....other than that, there is nothing going in that does not grow on a tree or from the ground in nature or that cannot be killed and cooked.

Kelly Guest's whining about HAVING to take supplements because of training volume is horse shit. You can get plenty of calories from a standard grocery store from the outside aisles.

Dev
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [CaptainCanada] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
You know the AG triathlon crowd. These people take all manner of supplements like candy. If they are told it will help with anything, they'll take it, no questions asked, on the spot.

Fleck,

With all due respect ... for someone who makes a living selling things to AG triathletes you sure do repeatedly demonstrate a profound lack of respect for you customer base. I value your input as "an old school guy" and have found many gems of advice amongst your numerous "back in the day ..." posts, but this continuous bashing of your clientele gets old. Frankly, I doubt I would buy anything from you ... as I would always feel that you would be laughing at me right after I left.

Carry on.
Look he didn't say they were taking illegal supplements just that age groupers have tended to go to the expo or see an add "race faster" "recover quicker" "go longer"
take free samples etc without paying attention to whats in it or trusting whomever gave it to them assuming the vendor must be trusted they are allowed to advertise or have a booth.
And sometimes some of these might have something banned or at least might show a false postive.
Pros (current day pros) probably pay lots more attention to that because they are tested and they worry about that stuff more than age groupers would.
I see no lack or respect there.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Let's start with something manageable, taking into account that AGers have full time pursuits other than being an athlete (ex. my company told me today that I need to fly to Germany on Saturday for meeting in either Berlin or Munich on Monday [still up in the air]...can you say ADAMS nightmare). An AGer who is a lawyer can't walk out of court when testers show up....ADAMS is unworkable for AGers. How 'bout in competition testing only, and for the real problem drugs: steriods, EPO, uppers. I doubt pot or heroin would help someone win a race, so why spend the $$ to test for it or penalize people for it? I would just greenlight ingredients in inhalers as well, asking for TUEs is also just too much overhead.
I'm sure there's PED cheating in triathlons, but let's start with a workable system that we can build upon rather than one that's so cumbersome that it collapses under it's own weight.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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In a lot of countries you are can be tested as long as you take part in organized sport. Of course top athletes get tested most but targeted testes of age groupers have shown that doping is a bigger problem than just the top athletes.

This is the best quote I have seen regarding doping testes. It says a lot about differences in different countries regarding doping and also why it is important to have a robust testing system. The question is: will WTC try to look clean or will it try to clean up the sport.

Jack Sasseville Says:
August 27th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
In 1988 when I was a coach on the Canadian National Team I was skiing at the Dachstein glacier in September when Ben Johnson was caught for steroids at the Seoul Olympics.


On the day that he was caught we were been razzed by the Italian team coaches for being a doping country. I was standing beside the track with Gerhardt Taller who was the head of the racing service dept for Fischer at the time. Fischer was one of the two main suppliers of skis to the Soviet team at the time.

I was lamenting being a Canadian that day to him and he said to me “Jack, the difference between your team and their team (he was pointing to a Russian skier) is that when your team gets tested in your country for doping they are tested to be caught, but for the Russians they are tested so that they don’t get caught.”
http://blogs.fasterskier.com/editor/2009/08/26/recent-russian-doping-history/
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [CaptainCanada] [ In reply to ]
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"you sure do repeatedly demonstrate a profound lack of respect for you customer base."

i didn't read it like that at all. and, i'm precisely the sort of person he wrote about. there is a thriving nutritionals industry that triathlon supports. if you looked in my pantry you'd find fluid replacement, gels, concentrated carbohydrate recovery stuff, magnesium pills, salt replacement, protein powder, gummy bear type things, various bars, and i don't know all what else.

now, maybe you don't have any of this stuff, and you do your sport off broccoli and spam. good for you. but your commentary is pretty harsh, and i think you're way off base. if you don't want to by anything from fleck on the basis of some sort of moral issue, fine, but i know everybody in the wetsuit biz, and you're cutting yourself off from about the most stand up guy in the industry.
if you'll only buy your next wetsuit from somebody better than fleck, don't throw away your 1987 QR, you're going to be in it for a long time ;-)


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Halvard....reminds me of Pierre Harvey earlier that year of 1988 finishing 14th in the Olympics at Calgary.

A few weeks later he wins the World Cup in Holmenkollen which in the XC ski world is like winning Kona in triathlon. The Russians were "off the back" as they came down from their Olympic "program".

One of my biggest thrills in my life was actually this past year....I was racing in the Eastern Canadian XC ski championships "off the back" in something like 59th place....but just just over 30 seconds up was "the old guy" Pierre, still competing for fun...that was cool.

In the mid 90's during the peak EPP years our XC ski program really sucked from a competitive perpective...but as worldwide doping programs caught up, Canadian World Cup results got much better....coincidence? Pierre's son is now one of the top young skiers in the world and hopefully he is competing on a more level field than his dad did.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck,
You add a lot to the board here. You've been around the block and are usually a solid voice of reason.

That being said, you shitting all over AG triathletes is getting a bit old for me. I like to laugh at the goofy folks with all the gizmos as much as the next guy but I try to keep the 'holier than thou' stuff to a minimum. It's especially surprising coming from a guy who sells triathlon gear.

I used to click on a thread if I saw that you posted something, now not so much.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [AZRob] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
"My point is that when you're dealing with a private company (notwithstanding things that are clearly illegal) the options are put up or shut up, and all the chatter is just that - chatter."

Your point is false; there are more than two options. The chatter itself can lead to negotiations, which then lead to rule changes that help the WTC avoid bad publicity (we can call it the third option). Once the rules change, you still have three or more options, including put up, shut up, or get the rules changed again. Think of chatter as "community organizing" or maybe forming an alliance to vote the bad positions off the island, and you'll have a better understanding of what can be done. We like to make things black and white, but in most developed countries, due process is a recognized right (and large private companies generally observe it by tradition with things like their "customer service department", although they don't have to) and then there's a lot of room for gray. As an example, how many penalized drafters do you know who don't appeal their penalties to the race director?

I think the last thing the WTC wants is a bunch of media attention with article headlines such as "New WTC Drug Testing Irks Racers", or "Conflicts Emerge with New WTC Drug Testing Protocol." You think it's just chatter, but the WTC doesn't make much of its money from impersonal government contracts. The money comes directly from customers who use the service, with some additional fees from cities and brand licensing.

You can mock "chatter" all you want, but it's more powerful than you think.
I think if they've successfully ignored the brouhaha around drafting and overcrowded courses, they can avoid the same around AG drug testing.

Just my opinion tho.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [itseazy] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Fleck,
You add a lot to the board here. You've been around the block and are usually a solid voice of reason.

That being said, you shitting all over AG triathletes is getting a bit old for me. I like to laugh at the goofy folks with all the gizmos as much as the next guy but I try to keep the 'holier than thou' stuff to a minimum. It's especially surprising coming from a guy who sells triathlon gear.

I used to click on a thread if I saw that you posted something, now not so much.
I don't think he defecated in the general direction of anyone. He told it like it is. Triathletes love their supplements. More than any sport I've ever participated in (And that's been a bunch!)

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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I think the issue that some of us had with Fleck's widesweeping statement about age groupers is that many of us DO NOT just do stuff blindly. I think guys like Eganski, Itzeasy and myself (not that I am in the same category of speed, but I put in as much into this sport as many guys) go out of our way to be the best we can be without any shortcuts. There are many in the same boat. Sure, there are some age groupers looking for the silver bullet, but Fleck's general statement is far from fair. Frankly most age groupers who I know who treat this sport with some level of seriousness (incorporated into their lifestyle and come out to compete at every race....) actually do the opposite of what Fleck says.

They do the hard work, and are pretty diligent about what they put in their bodies and ARE NOT buying into the claims of any magic supplement, cause we know that if it sounds too good to be true, then it likely is.

So no, I don't think age groupers across the board are popping stuff in like candy.

Yes, there are some trying to take shortcuts, and we DO want a level playing field, but outing these guys and if testing is needed, lets at least start with "in competition" at the qual events....after qualifier events is too late.

Dev
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Fleck,
You add a lot to the board here. You've been around the block and are usually a solid voice of reason.

That being said, you shitting all over AG triathletes is getting a bit old for me. I like to laugh at the goofy folks with all the gizmos as much as the next guy but I try to keep the 'holier than thou' stuff to a minimum. It's especially surprising coming from a guy who sells triathlon gear.

I used to click on a thread if I saw that you posted something, now not so much.
I don't think he defecated in the general direction of anyone. He told it like it is. Triathletes love their supplements. More than any sport I've ever participated in (And that's been a bunch!)

John
I do not see the supplements outside of crap to injest beforehand or during a workout. You have never been around bodybuilding or 'recreational' weight lifters or almost any guy at the gym. I simply disagree with what he said, but my experience may be different, I do not think he was throwing fecal matter in my general direction or anyone elses.

-- Aaron Davidson
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [aarondavidson] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Fleck,
You add a lot to the board here. You've been around the block and are usually a solid voice of reason.

That being said, you shitting all over AG triathletes is getting a bit old for me. I like to laugh at the goofy folks with all the gizmos as much as the next guy but I try to keep the 'holier than thou' stuff to a minimum. It's especially surprising coming from a guy who sells triathlon gear.

I used to click on a thread if I saw that you posted something, now not so much.
I don't think he defecated in the general direction of anyone. He told it like it is. Triathletes love their supplements. More than any sport I've ever participated in (And that's been a bunch!)

John
I do not see the supplements outside of crap to injest beforehand or during a workout. You have never been around bodybuilding or 'recreational' weight lifters or almost any guy at the gym. I simply disagree with what he said, but my experience may be different, I do not think he was throwing fecal matter in my general direction or anyone elses.
Heh, actually I have. My major was kinesiology, I was around the gym and teams at the college plenty, and then did an internship at a gym before graduation. You're right, bodybuilders are pretty bad, but I don't really consider that a sport, truth be told. I was looking at it more from organized competitive sports. the majority of the guys I see at the gym will never come close to a competitive bodybuilding experience.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [eganski] [ In reply to ]
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Here's the top result of a quick google search of "epo testing"

http://www.sciencedaily.com/.../06/080626100921.htm

One of the reasons for the Biological Passport is that it is difficult to detect epo in an athlete (as the study in the above link notes) but it's easy to detect unnatural changes in blood profiles. Obviously the WTC isn't going to do a biological passport.

So let's say the WTC decides to do an epo test on all Kona and Clearwater qualifiers. That's a $400 test that according to the study is marginally effective for catching athletes during the BOOSTING stage! 2000 athletes at $400 per test, who pays, and is it effective? No, testing on site after an athlete qualifies for Kona or Clearwater would be like taking a breathalyzer 1 week after drinking. Worthless. In my opinion, out of competition testing is the ONLY way to deter athletes from using PED's and even then it's only marginally effective. I'm only basing this on the opinion that 70.3 and 140.6 athletes would be using epo and not other drugs like steroids and testosterone.

As I've said before, I think AG testing is a bad idea for 2 reasons-the money and resources should be used to deter pros who are performing at a level that many times seems super-human compared to top amateurs going 9 hours with in many cases the same time and resources dedicated to training as a pro. The second reason is that because of these "modest" performances (compared to pros) I really don't believe age groupers are using performance enhancing drugs. But if anyone thinks testing will prove or disprove this notion, then they're mistaken.

I'd like to see a program where all potential qualifiers are subject to testing even before they qualify. Let's be honest-if you're going for a Kona or Clearwater slot, it's no accident, you're going for it starting in the off-season. So you are required at the start of each year to submit your name knowing that you can be tested at any time during the year. If they do decide to test every Kona and Clearwater qualifier, those tests should be done not after the athlete qualifies, but long before those Championship races occur.

Very nice post.

If it was so easy to catch the dopers wouldn't we be seeing more positives in cycling...

I would also like someone to guestimate how many actual Kona qualifiers are actually doping to get their slot. Reading this thread it seems as if over 75% of the qualifiers are doping. I would think that MAYBE in every Ironman there is 1 AG doping with EPO to win a slot. I think this entire thing is a waste of money that should be spent on the pros. Test them 10x more in and out of competition, that is where the doping is happening.

Derek
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [trimess] [ In reply to ]
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no one has still answered my question, whether they are willing to foot this bill for this through increased entry fees.

But, Dan, your estimate of a $20 blood test is way off. Urine alone, is $400-500, and that is probably not testing for EPO, and about the most basic test you can get. Blood only goes up from there, as you need someone certified to take it.

I don't even want to know what the biological passport would cost.

I don't know that most of you guys realize what kind of a budget USADA and WADA work with. It is Huge! To think that WTC would even through a fraction of their own money at this, without charging you more, is just laughable.

Their professional testing is laughable.

And Fleck makes a good point. When you are being test, esp. in OOC, you have to be very careful of where you go, what you take, what you eat, who gave you what. This is an inconvenience that I am will to bet almost no age grouper would actually want. You get to tell them where you will be every hour of the day for the next 4 months.
How about a compromise-get a call to have blood/urine drawn at XYZ lab within 4 hours or you will be eliminated from the potential pool of OOC qualifiers.

As to paying for this, I'm guessing that a 10% increase across the board for all participants will not scare off too many people from enjoying an already expensive sport .

DFL > DNF > DNS
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