Thank you. Thought that part was pretty obvious but some people need the obvious explained to them.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I think the jealousy referred to was concerning speed & accomplishment v. dorkiness, not money. Middle school assistant janitors make more than most tri pros bag in prize money, which, if you were paying attention at all, was the point of both the stunt and most of this thread.

-bobo

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"What's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded."

Well I was certainly paying attention the poster's meaning and his reponse that I identified it correctly -- which was the only point of my post.

I used to see Cedar Point coverage on a FL channel I get. Also a little 30-60 min coverage from Rev3 FL. 2 IM races were on NBC sports network last week and wish I saw more of those (neither were Kona).

What someone values something at is person dependent. Apparently people value LeBron. I personally don't think the guys worth anything.

Not really in LeBron's case or many superstar pro athletes. They put asses in seats and sell merchandise. Their value is certainly quantifiable.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Make IM Pro race draft legal.

I think it will indeed be interesting to see how non-pro Ironman races fare. I'm guessing they'll be fine in 2015, but beyond that, who knows.

What I think most people underestimate is the impact of the pro's on things like the race expo's, what businesses book(pay) for space and so on. Then there is the whole speaking charade, pro introductions at races, pre-race dinners etc. All those things become significantly less interesting without a pro field. I wouldn't put it past sponsors to pay pro's to fly in anyway, thats much easier than having to race and hopefully the pro's will stand their ground and rather than do it for a home stay+airfare, they'll actually demand to be paid for the time it takes, say 4-days plus T&E.

Again, we can only debate from our own perspective, mine is that the pro's bought me to this sport.

Sport joins people up, it makes a community, it's about contact. It creates memories, watching big races on TV, in person creates legends, where would we be with no legends? People racing Ironman with other age groupers as legends? Maybe, but probably not. Don't you all remember doing a race with a pro?

I got to meet Leanda Cave a few times in those "race" experiences, but heck the sight of her charging towards me on the fire berm at the old Florida 70.3 course was a sight to see, yup I jumped out of the way. I remember the first person I met that was a triathlete in training for wildflower log course, she spoke about Dave Scott with such reverence that you couldn't help but be impressed, I'd never heard of him before.

So yup, all those non-pro field Ironman races are going to be deprived of that now. Can you put a price on a race that barely can differentiate itself from a local 5k, except that it takes more than 10-hours to finish? We'll see.

The flipside is how many age groupers truly know what it feels like to roll across an Ironman race as THE overall winner. It is a true age group race. I don't see these races losing anything at all.

Except they won't... there won't be much media coverage, a lot less interest from the general public in the bleachers, likely no TV coverage, a smaller race expo with only local companies. But hey, maybe you are right, everyone can be a legend in their own mind, and thats enough.

Except they won't... there won't be ANY media coverage,NO interest from the general public in the bleachers, POSITIVELY no TV coverage, a smaller race expo with only local companies. But hey, maybe you are right, everyone can be a legend in their own mind, and thats enough.

Just mad a couple changes, you had it mostly right…These races will decrease in interest every year now. How long and how fast, hard to know, but i guarantee the arrow is pointed down. Just imagine NEW York or Boston marathons with no pro fields. You never see them on tv again, no one talks about them, and they cease to be the go to events they had created. And it is not conjecture, Boston almost went that way before they were forced to pay prize money and have a pro race. Like ironman did, they thought that they could remain a pure amateur race, but then started getting killed by these other marathons popping up with big purses. At least someone eventually made a good decision to have a pro field, but not before they allowed these other start up marathons to become as big or bigger than they were.

I would be willing to bet that Lake Placid will be just fine without the pros.

Lake Placid will be fine for a number of reasons - namely its proximity to major population centers, existing reputation, and the fact that it's been around longer than most. Florida will continue to sell out, and Tahoe won't - for obvious reasons. That may not be the case with other races, where the lack of media coverage may end up being a detriment. But we'll need a few years to see if people are indifferent about going to a parade instead of a race. Generally, I think Ironman races will continue to be ok - since people are just going to go to ironman's website and pick a race that's convenient and interesting. On the other hand, I think Rev3 will take a big hit by dropping their pro field, since the diminished race coverage on triathlon sites, this forum (which has a ton of people new to the sport), and twitter will have a negative effect on brand awareness.

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I would be willing to bet that Lake Placid will be just fine without the pros. //

I will take that bet, but what is fine? They already are not filling up as fast as they used to, that lag time will get further and further out each year, until it does not fill. You can blame it on whatever you want, but right now the arrows are pointed down and my bet is they continue that direction. If you define fine as a 1500 person race, well i guess you would be right. I define fine as a property that continues to grow and flourish, not one that withers on the vine.


Reality is that once WTC sells itself, i bet things will change once again. Hopefully the new owners will care about the legacy of ironman, and hope to restore the damage that has been done by private equity to the brand. So if Placid can hang on til then, perhaps it will have a chance at becoming the legacy race it once was. This brand should not be a company to be bought and sold just to suit investors that need 4X within 5 years. We need a steady owner who is content to make a good profit with a long range goal for the company and the sport in general. They are out there, but get fewer and fewer in these inflated values that PE juices companies with.

Reality is that once WTC sells itself, i bet things will change once again.

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I asked this is another thread. So we all know WTC was bought and by the company that usually only holds onto properties for a very short term. So my question becomes, wont the next guy buy something that will have "peaked"? I mean it seems to be that the WTC group is only going to really sale when the bubble has burst (or just before). So what's in it for the next guy AND who can afford their likely price tag?

I don't see slowman or Dave Scott or a group of you old pros grouping together to buy it. So who do we think gets it? I guess I'm confused on who will buy it seemingly knowing that they value is likely going to have peaked?

Isnt that how those companies deal with property/businesses? Buy a company, ring out everything for it's worth, and then dump it?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

100% agree with Monty on this point. Wasn't it just two short years ago the WTC and Lake Placid had a rather pro-longed negotiation about extending the contract? wan't it rumored that WTC received a larger share of the take of the profits that are earned during this 5 day period? Now, WTC eliminates the pro-field and demotes LP to a second tier event? Can't imagine that sits well with the folks in LP.

Part of the wonder, allure, and attraction of a WTC event is the pro-field. Without a pro field, triathlon is even less interesting than a tough-mudder event. Of course my kids came to watch me, but over the years, they fell in love with watching Andy Potts burn through that course and they were so disappointed that he was not there this year. Now, none of the pros will show and that's disappointing.

There will be a gradual decline in this event. Heck even Dev was enticed away this year to race a different event. With more north of the border events, LP will diminish and will very likely go the same route as Penticton once this contract period is up.

Part it out at greatly over inflated prices, then sell off the remainder?

I don't see slowman or Dave Scott or a group of you old pros grouping together to buy it.//

Funny thing when Valerie sold it, i talked to dan about this very thing. I was thinking we could buy this race and mold it to our history and vision of the sport. Pros, AG'ers, business people, kind of the way that USAT started way back when. And it was only 2 mil at the time, but that was a lot of money to us in the 80's, and we let the deal pass to the Gil family. Wonder what it would look like now if we had bought it? Certainly would have been a great investment.

Another interesting aspect as much as the pro's are concerned, is pandering the the local dignitaries and their egos. I've been in race meetings with cities and local council folks...

I can't remember where I posted this... but I posted something to the same effect a while back. Once the pro's are gone these things become 5k's that have a massive burden and cost.

The discussions go something like this:

Mayor/Chief of Police: You want what, to shutdown main st for 24-hours?
Organizer: Yes, its for an Ironman
Mayor/Chief of Police: You are making a movie?
Organizer: No, you know the endurance sport, Ironmn Hawaii.
Mayor/Chief of Police: You re bringing Ironman Hawaii to town?
Organizer: No, it's owned by th same company though.
Mayor/Chief of Police: You can qualify for Ironman Hawaii though, right?
Organizer: Actually, the age groupers can.
Mayor/Chief of Police: Whats an age grouper?
Organizer: Someone like you and I. Oh and by the way, you have to pay us something like $200k for the race?
Mayor/Chief of Police: We have to pay you?
Organizer: Yes, and provide a number of free local services, garbage collection, cops etc.
Mayor/Chief of Police: We can never sell that to the community.
Organizer: Yes, its for an Ironman
Well look at it this way, get 800-2000 to sign up as volunteers and we'll donate back $100k to community charities.
Mayor/Chief of Police: But thats not even minimum wage, I'm confused, will it be on national TV?
Organizer: No, probably not, but local TV can cover the volunteers, and everyone in the community will buy-in.
Mayor/Chief of Police: Forget it, I can't do that if its not on national TV
Organizer: Think of all the additional revenue coming into the city funds through tax dollars, these triathletes are big spenders.
Mayor/Chief of Police: How much is the prize money?
Organizer: There isn't any.
Mayor/Chief of Police: Why not?
Organizer: It's an amateur only race, no pro's.
Mayor/Chief of Police: Can't you bring some pro's?
Organizer: Yes, I suppose we could
Mayor/Chief of Police: and some prize money?
Organizer: Yes, I suppose I could, will that get the race on?
Mayor/Chief of Police: Maybe, anything else that I could sell to the locals?
Organizer: We could make it a regional championship and bring in maybe 100 pro's
Mayor/Chief of Police: Now you are talking boy...

I've been in these discussions, they take much longer and I've never been able to offer a regional championship. Remember all the businesses that will have to shutdown for the day. Most of them won't got the same back in the days before and after. Remember all the churches and other community events that will be disrupted... these things are all forgiven where there are pro's racing... its a big deal to these mostly quiet, rarely heard of cities and communities.

You wanna do the same for 2500 MAMILS(middle aged men in lycra) as they have been called, good luck with that. Hopefully you are right, IMLP and all the other non-pro races will all do fine, and none of us will know until, well, we know.

Maybe you meant to respond to someone else? I don't think they will be fine, I think your screenplay is right on.

Quite honestly, I agreed with you until I was walking back from Packet Pickup at Steelhead earlier today. It's then that it hit me, there haven't ever even been 'pro's' at this race. There is no pre race pro hype, there is no post race pro hype, there is no during race pro hype, there is no first pro is about to finish hype, literally no one cares. And to make matters worse, even the local newspaper barely even cares, in the past years it's been the male winner gets a tiny little picture on the cover and a short story on page three of the sports section. I wish I was making this up, but a couple months ago this paper ran a story about how to clean your kitchen knives as a big story on the front page, and steelhead doesn't get squat.

So, I must say, my opinion has changed, at least in the case of Steelhead, all will be well here in Southwest Michigan for coming years.

So, I must say, my opinion has changed, at least in the case of Steelhead, all will be well here in Southwest Michigan for coming years.//

Ya, i don't doubt that you have a good time and the race is a great one, but what do they have, like a little over 1400 people? The big pro 70.3's get 2500 to upwards of 3000 people in them. I think oceanside regularly sells out 3k plus very early in the year. I bet if they put oceanside money into steelhead it too would be a 3000 person race in a couple years. We have lots of 1500 people AG races, that is not unusual. But for an ironman branded event to get a little less than that, well that is not a major event in any way, and does not appear to be a sellout either.

There's 2000 here, but the point remains, no one cares about the pro's, no one even knows they exist here. Sure this is only n=1, and no matter how much I wish it weren't true, it unfortunately is the case.

Not sure how you know that "NO" one cares about the pros, guy just a couple posts up said he did, you know if he was there or not, or if i was there? My point is that most races are amateur races and people obviously like them fine, they are there racing. But they are not major events, nothing wrong with that either. The fact that you don't care about pros at your local event does not really prove anything here, just that you like your local event. But no one is flying in from Germany, France, or even other states for that matter to do this race, except for the odd man out of course. And there is nothing wrong with that either! Enjoy your races like we all do, but don't presume what you may like at an event is what everyone else does too.

I don't get to race as much as i used to or would like to, so my participation in the sport is from a fans point of view most the time. So i only care about pro events, and the pros that race them because I'm just watching. There is nothing at all compelling to me about watching age groupers, i might look up my AG at nationals, but that would be it. I like competing with AG'ers, but they are boring as hell to watch. Its why you will never see an amateur only race on tv. It is just not me that does not care to watch them, it is most everyone.

I said i do enjoy watching the pro race, but I'm the nearly the only one. Andy Potts has raced here, Cave has raced here, even with them here, there just aren't people watching the pro race. How do I know? Well I look around at T2 when they are coming in and the fact that there's only 20 people watching surely says enough for me. Then at the finish, when there's only 20 people watching the pros come in again, that's all the info I need. I love the pro side of the sport, but I'm just not buying it that they bring in that many increased registrations.

Don't have anything to add to the conversation. Just wanted to be post #1000

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