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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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Meanwhile, on the other side of the globe...

https://swimswam.com/...ifetime-best50-free/

If the Aussies manage to not completely blow their Olympics like they did the last couple of cycles, it looks like we are headed for a fun head-to-head of Dressel vs Chalmers.

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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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"If" hahaha.

At this point the Aussies have to prove to me they can consistently perform at an Olympics before I'll believe it. The Campbells, and a few select others seem to perform, but consistently across the board, they really need to put up.

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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Re: MA, Exactly, because what is there to taper from? When elites like Dressel are beating the hell out of themselves and teaching their bodies to race broken down, it's only natural that when rested they're going to establish a new performance benchmark. MA is essentially like the HS kid trying to get best times every race during meet season, only it never culminates in anything.

The Olympics should be exciting. Worlds won't move the needle much this year, but in 15 months I think we're going to see some special performances, and hopefully (?) most of the suit-era records are gone by the end of the week in Tokyo. I just hope the US men have enough guys that can make the jump from scy to LCM.
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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [tallswimmer] [ In reply to ]
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Even the Campbell's didn't have a great meet in Rio. They were the odds on favourites for the 100 free (at least Cate was, IIRC), but that gold went to Simone & Penny.

Horton performed well, and Chalmers was a big surprise performance. Other than that, there weren't a lot of bright spots for the Aussies.

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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew is going to suffer big time at an international meet where he's expected to contribute to relays. A huge benefit from college swimming are those 3.5-day champ meets where you swim 6 events (half relays)-- and you can really see the effect it has on guys the last day of NCAA's. The world/olympic meets stretch things out a bit but Andrew does not have the background doing that many swims. I know he's done a few doubles at some named meets but not against top international competition.

Also agreed about his approach to the pro meets, he's going for max wins, trying to win money (I assume, although I think he's pretty well off), whereas some of the other established guys like Dressel are taking much longer-term seasonal approaches. I used to see the same thing from other SEC teams when I was in college; a very good swimmer that I grew up with went to Tennessee, and their approach was 'race in peak shape all season' so they were very good at early season dual meets but never improved at SEC's, whereas Florida, Auburn, and Georgia train like maniacs through December. The truly special swimmers can step up and race fast even with the hard training load (I was not one of them).

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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [Optimal_Adrian] [ In reply to ]
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I am old, but it never amazes me how freekin big those boys are getting. In college I was 6'1" and a shade under 2 bills and was the 2nd biggest guy on our team. Now I would look like a runt at NCAAs. I am still wrapping my head around going in the high 30s for a 100yd free. And a guy setting a 200yd free record in a relay and not swimming the event so he can concentrate on backstroke finals. Early 70s times aren't even in the same area code as the kids today.
I don't even mention my college times anymore in the Fly or distance free as I may not even make a good HS girls travel squad. I seriously wonder if I could even make a long course 100 Fly these days, and know for sure I couldn't make a short course 200 fly 100%.
But then, Charles Barkley says he can't dunk anymore and neither can Michale Jordan. (not sure I believe the Jordan part)
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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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In Michael Andrew's defense on that 100 fly, he had about a 12 minute turnaround from the 50 back final, where he took down Grevers, Murphy, Pebley, and Held for the win. Who knows what his mindset was for the 100 fly, but I suspect that altered his objective. "First to the 50, cruise home," maybe? That might have been more rewarding/instructive than a well-split, but mediocre, full 100.

On the subject of his training methods, I will agree that he's racing at closer to peak potential at his in season meets than many of his competitors (which isn't bad if you're trying to make a living on the Pro circuit), but to say that he's got no untapped potential to uncork at a big meet seems to ignore how many PR's he's posted at big meets the past couple seasons. I've done USRPT, at a much lower level than Andrew, and I can assure you that there is accumulated fatigue that you can shed with a reduction in workload. Not as much as with traditional training, of course, but you can unload. Whether you believe it's physical or all mental, you can't argue that Andrew doesn't mange to find another level for his personal "A" meet.

And let's not forget he's basically a college sophomore. Had he swam at NCCA championships, he'd have been the favorite in the 50 free; and a strong podium contender in the 100 back, breast, or fly. He'd obviously have been coveted for any 200 free relay. There's not a 400 Medley relay team in the country he wouldn't have made better, and he could have swum any stroke on any 200 Medley Relay team in the meet and made that relay faster. .He'd probably be considered the best underclassman in the NCAA, and, given his versatility, in the discussion for most valuable swimmer overall. So why would he doubt what he's been doing? He's remained the best of his age cohort, and his training is still netting him gains. Lastly, he's still pretty young in the scheme of things. He's gotten where he is in a different manner than Dressel got where he was at at 19, and may ultimately never be as successful as Dressel, but that doesn't mean he would have been better had he done it Dressel's way. Let's not forget that "Dressel's way" drove him to the brink of quitting at 17 years old. At least he came back from the brink. A lot of really talented age groupers burned themselves out early. MA has been able to keep himself physically healthy, and has managed to mentally cope with more outside scrutiny and second-guessing than any other teenage swimmer has ever had to endure. The lack of regular 10-14k slog-fests probably has something to do with that.


ripple wrote:
. MA is essentially like the HS kid trying to get best times every race during meet season, only it never culminates in anything.


Jeebus, he's qualified for 2019 LC Worlds in 4 individual events, and was "1st man out" on 2 more. What more would you want from a 19 year old?* ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . I'll take a couple helpings of that kind of failure, thank you.

*There are only 2 younger than him on the US Worlds roster.....including the women's roster. He's a baby in this arena. IMHO, we really won't be able to assess the success or failure of the "Michael Andrew Experiment" for another 5 years.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Apr 12, 19 12:31
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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew did indeed qualify for 2019 WCs in a total of 5 events (50/100 BR, 400 MR, 50 FR, 50 FL) but unfortunately only 3 of the 5 are Oly events, as the Oly in 2020 is not doing the 50 stroke events. So, maybe he makes the Oly team in 50 FR, 100 BR, 400 MR, and perhaps 400 FR Relay. That's 4 events which is many more than most people can claim, but it doesn't appear that he will be another Phelps in 2020. Now if in 2024 they add the 3 stroke 50s, 200 FR relay, and 200 MR, then he would have a shot at 9 medals. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
That's 4 events which is many more than most people can claim, but it doesn't appear that he will be another Phelps in 2020.


Why does he have to be "another Phelps" to be considered successful? AFIK, the kid's never said he would be the next Phelps. Others have projected that onto him.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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Talking about the next Phelps is pointless, and unless some swimmer takes on that challenge themselves, best not to hoist those compassions on folks. And I see a lot of events the kid can swim, remember that we have two extra relays, which means two extra prelims. If Caleb is really going to go for the whole basket of events he can swim, he is going to need a lot of help on those relays. He should not have to swim one prelim, so we will need super fast folks to make sure we make the finals to fill in. They get medals too lets not forget, so perhaps he could swim 5 or even 6 events?
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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
That's 4 events which is many more than most people can claim, but it doesn't appear that he will be another Phelps in 2020.


Why does he have to be "another Phelps" to be considered successful? AFAIK, the kid's never said he would be the next Phelps. Others have projected that onto him.

It goes back to "is USRPT the best way to train?" I say NO b/c it doesn't give the swimmer sufficient endurance reserves. I always thought Bob Bowman summed it up best in his spinach analogy: "Spinach is a great food but you don't want to eat only spinach all the time."


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
gary p wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
That's 4 events which is many more than most people can claim, but it doesn't appear that he will be another Phelps in 2020.


Why does he have to be "another Phelps" to be considered successful? AFAIK, the kid's never said he would be the next Phelps. Others have projected that onto him.


It goes back to "is USRPT the best way to train?" I say NO b/c it doesn't give the swimmer sufficient endurance reserves. I always thought Bob Bowman summed it up best in his spinach analogy: "Spinach is a great food but you don't want to eat only spinach all the time."


Jury's still out on that, IMHO. I think it depends what you focus on. Andrew's made it clear that his primary focus for 2018 and 2019 through Worlds has been the 50's. ALL the 50's. Apparently, as Murphy owns both of the automatic 50 back qualifying positions, Andrew can get a lane for that event if he has the highest FINA ranking of the remaining team members. This explains why he was so focused on that 50 back in Richmond, and treated the 100 fly that followed immediately as a "throw away" race. I think there's a very reasonable debate whether so much focus on the stroke 50's at this point is the best idea for the long game, but that's what he and his father/coach have decided and that's what he's aiming for.


I've personally had good success Using USPRT for distance training. I've discussed it at length in other threads on the topic, so I won't bog this thread down with the details, but suffice to say there's a massive aerobic component to the USRPT sets for the longer (200+) races. I just don't think Andrew is doing any of that. If I could have had Andrew's dad's ear after he missed the 2017 Worlds roster, I would have suggested he make Michael train for and race the 400 free as his A Race for an entire season. I don't think he'd ever be a great 400 swimmer, but I think he'd see big dividends in the back half of his 100's and the last leg of his 200 IM. They seem to have gone the other direction, though. He's made the Worlds roster in multiple events, including 2 Olympic events, so it's hard to argue against their direction.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Apr 13, 19 11:03
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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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1:57 in the 200 IM tonight is pretty impressive. Frankly I've never thought much of his family's approach/management from afar, and don't hold my breath for winning times on the world "A" level (yes he won the 100IM at SC worlds but that's not A level in my book) but if he can actually put that time down and or improve at a trials meet that'd open the door for the possibility.

ETA - ok i just looked at his splits, and he was only home in 30.0. Holy ouch.

I wrote this, you should read it:
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Last edited by: tallswimmer: Apr 13, 19 18:41
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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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I was at the pool yesterday and heard from an older swimmer (who used to coach at the college level) that a club team that trained usrpt all the time ended up developing some heart arrhythmia later in life. Again, I didn’t probe him and say “but usrpt is relatively new” or “let me jump out of the pool and look that up” (or anything like that). But just wondering if anyone heard anything that before about usrpt?

Don’t mean to derail the ncaa thread though.
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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [Optimal_Adrian] [ In reply to ]
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Optimal_Adrian wrote:
Andrew is going to suffer big time at an international meet where he's expected to contribute to relays. A huge benefit from college swimming are those 3.5-day champ meets where you swim 6 events (half relays)-- and you can really see the effect it has on guys the last day of NCAA's. The world/olympic meets stretch things out a bit but Andrew does not have the background doing that many swims. I know he's done a few doubles at some named meets but not against top international competition.

How'd he look last night on his 12th and 13th splashes in 3 days? There are a lot of things you can legitimately criticize Michael Andrew about. To say he's not used to swimming a full plate of events in a compact meet, however, suggests you haven't really been following what he's been doing for the last several years, which is racing of 6, 7, or even 8 events at countless 3 day US and International pro series events, with dozens of of double- and even triple-finals nights. All with no diving breaks.

I think we got a glimpse last night of where all this stroke-50's madness is going.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [gary p, tallswimmer, jasoninhalifax] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
Optimal_Adrian wrote:
Andrew is going to suffer big time at an international meet where he's expected to contribute to relays. A huge benefit from college swimming are those 3.5-day champ meets where you swim 6 events (half relays)-- and you can really see the effect it has on guys the last day of NCAA's. The world/olympic meets stretch things out a bit but Andrew does not have the background doing that many swims. I know he's done a few doubles at some named meets but not against top international competition.

How'd he look last night on his 12th and 13th splashes in 3 days? There are a lot of things you can legitimately criticize Michael Andrew about. To say he's not used to swimming a full plate of events in a compact meet, however, suggests you haven't really been following what he's been doing for the last several years, which is racing of 6, 7, or even 8 events at countless 3 day US and International pro series events, with dozens of of double- and even triple-finals nights. All with no diving breaks.
I think we got a glimpse last night of where all this stroke-50's madness is going.

I just watched the video of his 200 IM and I noticed that his breathing on freestyle seems a bit off, espec for a world class swimmer. Not sure if he's breathing late or what but I was kind of shocked to this sort of flaw in such a fast swimmer. One of the swimswam commenters pointed this out, and it does seem odd that, as he/she put it, "they still haven't figured out his freestyle breathing yet".


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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How'd he look last night on his 12th and 13th splashes in 3 days? //


No kidding. I think all this talk about his endurance is just that, talk(out the ass). He is hanging in his 50's with the best 50 guy of "all time", and then handily wins the 200IM in a time that probably gets you in the olympic final. And for all we know, his breathing on that last 50 was cruising in, or a ever so slight back off. When you are that far ahead, you know it..I will say now that he is going to be a great addition to the US team come Tokyo, scoring many points and swimming on lots of relays.


And USRPT is causing heart problems, give me a break. First of all, all endurance athletes are subject to higher rates of heart anomalies, and assigning on type of set that just came into being in the past few years, well that's just stupid...
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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
How'd he look last night on his 12th and 13th splashes in 3 days? //


No kidding. I think all this talk about his endurance is just that, talk(out the ass). He is hanging in his 50's with the best 50 guy of "all time", and then handily wins the 200IM in a time that probably gets you in the olympic final. And for all we know, his breathing on that last 50 was cruising in, or a ever so slight back off. When you are that far ahead, you know it..I will say now that he is going to be a great addition to the US team come Tokyo, scoring many points and swimming on lots of relays.


And USRPT is causing heart problems, give me a break. First of all, all endurance athletes are subject to higher rates of heart anomalies, and assigning on type of set that just came into being in the past few years, well that's just stupid...

Yeah, but it was somewhat justified talk out of the ass. He really hadn't shown that he had the back half endurance so far. That was a breakthrough swim for MA, I think it was a 2+ second PB? Good for him. I am curious if he has anything above that with a taper, we know that Kalisz will be faster than that at Trials, and Seliskar is on a steep upward trajectory. The US men's IM is looking pretty solid these days, it will be tougher to make the US team than to make the Oly final.

I really doubt he backed off in the last 50. He laid down a 33.5-ish breast split, which is near as good as what Phelps and Lochte could do. He was toasted on the last 50, but a 30.0 on the last 50 isn't terrible given how fast he took it out.

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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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The US men's IM is looking pretty solid these days, it will be tougher to make the US team than to make the Oly final. //

If you take out the top 2 IM'ers of all time(which it looks like we have now, Locate still swimming?) That swim would have been fighting for the top medals in the last olympics. I would say a better taper and a year and a half, should lop some more time off that too. I have always felt that the 200IM was really just a collection of 4 50's, not an actual 200. I think you are right in that he was full gas at the end, but that just shows he still has room for improvement. Instead of training 25's like he said he was prior to this meet, start doing 50's to get ready for what might end up being his best event.


Anyway very exciting to see so many new guys step up, our trials is going to be brutal, once again, like always...
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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
The US men's IM is looking pretty solid these days, it will be tougher to make the US team than to make the Oly final. //

If you take out the top 2 IM'ers of all time(which it looks like we have now, Locate still swimming?) That swim would have been fighting for the top medals in the last olympics. I would say a better taper and a year and a half, should lop some more time off that too. I have always felt that the 200IM was really just a collection of 4 50's, not an actual 200. I think you are right in that he was full gas at the end, but that just shows he still has room for improvement. Instead of training 25's like he said he was prior to this meet, start doing 50's to get ready for what might end up being his best event.


Anyway very exciting to see so many new guys step up, our trials is going to be brutal, once again, like always...

The issue is that MA's training approach doesn't really lend itself to tapering. That's kind of how it is designed, Rushall basically says that one of the benefits is that kids following the approach have the benefit of swimming fast all year long, not just at a couple of "peak" meets. He's in a perma-taper mode.

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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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The issue is that MA's training approach doesn't really lend itself to tapering.//

Well tapering is not all physical, the mental aspect of it can be huge in some guys. At any rate, perhaps this is the future of swimming, being able to swim much closer to your potential 10 times a year, instead of just maybe two. If you are a professional making a living swimming every month, this might be the best method.. And his time in what amounted to a TT over a body length off the front, would have been fighting for the gold medal without the two best of all time. And he was obviously gassed and stretched after the race(as he should have been) but it just feels like he could get better at distance swimming. So all of that equals a guy with a great shot at olympic medals, today at least...


And about the USRPT and tapering, what if you wouldn't have gone any faster in a traditional buildup and taper at the end anyway, wouldn't you rather have swam fast all year too?? We really dont know their is a penalty for this program in the big meets, so to me, if there really is no penalty, I would absolutely rather swim fast all year...
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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Basically what Katinka does. Swims lights out all year, racing into shape, but then when the big lights are on, "underperforms" expectations. When traditional expectations are placed on swimmers like Katinka and MA, they are seen as failures, because the only thing that matters to the general swimming audience is World and Olympic medals. World Cup $$$ doesn't count towards greatness.

A few years ago FINA gave swimmer of the year to Katinka over Ledecky and everyone was up in arms. Katie destroyed everyone at 200/400/800/1500 at Worlds, but Katinka had nibbled away at SCM world records and wins on the World Cup circuit and got more "credit".

What's right? To me the big medals on the big stages, but if MA or Katinka's benchmark are just W's and paychecks, that's on them.

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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [tallswimmer] [ In reply to ]
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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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Cute, but it isn’t really possible to say, at this point, whether USPRT gives the same results as a grind and taper approach at big meets when it really counts, simply because MA is pretty much the only top level guy doing it. He might be even better under a traditional approach. Or he might be burned out. Who knows???

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Re: 2019 NCAA D1 Swimming thread. [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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Read my post again.

I don't dispute that. But what's the point? Would you rather spend a whole season at 90% of your potential, or the majority of your season at 75% with one pop at 100%?

I wrote this, you should read it:
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