Dan,

In the race transfer petition that was started at the SF Tri Club we were only asking for a "Reasonable Race Transfer Policy"

You mentioned about a "Mandated Race Transfer Policy" That sounds to harsh.

Willy in Pacifica

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Willy in Pacifica

of course willy - they want a "reasonable race transfer policy - mandated".

who determines what is reasonable? why lookee there the sftri-we-didn't-really-cheat-cuz-we-got-us-a-philadelphia-lawyer-in-the-club-to-fix-the-election-and-change-the-rules club happens to have one already drafted up !!

The "resonable race transfer policy" would be determined by the RD. Any reasonable race transfer policy would be better than no the "No tranfer ploicy" there is now.

Willy in Pacifica

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Willy in Pacifica

There may be a "no transfer" policy, but in NorCal, THE MAJORITY of the race directors do allow either a partial refund or, roll-over entry to the next year. And, they all are running a business, not a charity.

Doing a little research, here are the policies of the big 5 in NorCal, plus IMNA.

1. IMNA races:
Refund/Withdrawal Policy for Ironman North America races
Athletes who withdraw by the applicable date will receive a partial refund of $150 US or $200 Cdn. There will be NO REFUNDS of any sort, for any reason, after the withdrawal date. Please notify the Ironman North America office in writing to withdraw via fax at (850) 235-1837. Refunds for all participants will be by check through the Ironman North America office. Entries are not transferable between years nor races.

2. J&A races:
J&A Productions does not offer any cash refunds. We will issue you a race voucher good for one year, if you notify us in writing 30 days, one month prior to the event that you wish to cancel. This race voucher will be minus a $20 processing fee.

3. Vineman races: No refunds or transfers.

4. TriCalifornia races:
Q. After registering for your event, I find I cannot participate. What are my options? Do you give refunds?

A. Upon successfully registering online, you have already agreed to our registration agreement, which clearly states our policy. This policy provides for a grace period in which you may receive an event credit towards one of our future events. The event credit will be for 50% of  your entry fee. After 4/01/04 no event credits will be issued for Wildflower 2004 cancellations. We have found this policy to be an industry standard and necessary for the accuracy of our event registration.

Q. May I give or sell my slot to someone else?

A. All entries are non-transferable. Tri-California allows for a certain rate of attrition at each event. If an applicant would like to make a change before the deadline, this refers to switching their entry from one distance to another within an event (if there are still slots available in each race), they may do so, keeping in mind that a processing fee will be included in that decision. The processing fee to perform a switch from one distance to another within the same event is $20.00. Thank you for respecting our policy. Participants found racing under another persons name will be disqualified and both entrants will exempt from all other Tri-California event for one full year.

5. On Your Mark Events:
No refunds, but if you aren't an asshole, Mark has been known to roll over entries to the next race.

6. TBF Racing:
Policy not on website.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

"Any reasonable race transfer policy would be better than no the 'No tranfer ploicy' there is now."

maybe the suggested race transfer/refund policy that USAT has come up with, certainly due chiefly to the good offices of the SFTC and their officers, if sufficient and makes everyone reasonably happy. if so, case closed, and we all owe the SFTC a thank you for pushing hard on this.

and i mean that sincerely. i'm sure the SFTC is just like any other club, the same concerns, same sorta people, they just happen to be in an area where races are expensive and fill up in a hurry. hence the more acute need.

personally, i would be MUCH more likely to think favorably upon and RD who said, "hey, i sell space on the couse. if you want to sell your space to another guy, go for it," and it can all be done online. i think that's a LOT more fair. just like reselling a neil young concert ticket. shouldn't be any harder, except there's a bit more paperwork for which there should be the appropriate transfer fee.

the only difference between my view and that of certain others is that i think it's more appropriately a market issue, not a governance issue. when you do a "wildflower" search on this forum and see the beating that race is taking for its 2004 long course event, i think you can see that people are voting with their feet, and the market is working.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

... I don't think you to need to look up prior posts to see negative references about Wildflower. The negative posts seem to reflect some very basic short comings (and perhaps presumption on the part of the organizers). Some may blame it on the bad weather... but, I think the bad weather only emphasized the logistic problems that had always been their and yet not confronted. I think the proof seems to be in the pudding... When I last looked the Long Course still hadn't filled.

This is (as you put it Dan)... a marketing issue. Supply and Demand does eventually work when given the proper environment. Whether or not a refund policy will directly effect the fundamental logistical problems - too many people with insufficient facilities, I'm not certain. However, it certainly wouldn't hurt. Moreover, I think it would definately provide for a more fertile marketing environment (...something that the established and larger Triathlon's may not truely wish to have).

FWIW Joe Moya

Hey Cathy,

Are those RD policy's you mentioned been the same policy as last year or two years ago. If so then some are better than I remember. If they are new policy's then perhaps it is the RD complying a bit with the USAT request. Either way it is a step forward for those that have a reasonable race transfer or refund policy.

I guess what irks me more than anything is that the USAT RD's utilize the USAT insurance to be able to put on their race. The insurance policy that the members paid for. So the For Profit RD is using each members membership fee to help him make a bigger profit. Then they intentially oversell thier races knowing a certain percentage will not be able to attend for one reason or another. Those that do not allow any transfers pocket this money for no service. That is what I consider unreasonable. Anything above that is a step toward reasonable.

Willy in Pacfica

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Willy in Pacifica

" Those that do not allow any transfers pocket this money for no service. That is what I consider unreasonable."

you and i are entirely in agreement on this. more to the point, i don't think ANY of those transfer policies cathy outlined seem reasonable to me. what seems reasonable to me is:

1. you may transfer the ENTIRE entry fee to ANYONE eligible to race within 30 days of the event for a $20 charge, or
2. receive 100% of your entry fee within 30 days of race day, not to exceed the cost of the race you want to enter, if you want to transfer your entry to any future race the RD puts on that's still open;
3. no refund after that (because the RD has already paid 100% of the expense for you racing).

the only difference between us is that i think it's a market issue, not a governing body issue. but i find it egregious that RDs don't have a generous transfer policy, esp if their races fill up way in advance, esp if they have the ability to transfer the entry seamlessly and easily.

therefore, i'd LOVE to maintain a database of RDs who DO have a generous transfer policy, so that slowtwitch readers might consider patronizing those races.

i'll go one further. does the RD take your $9 when you register? let's say you don't race. who gets this money? does USAT get this money? nope, probably not. so the RD gets to pocket $9 for insurance for a race you didn't even do. frankly, i think USAT ought to get that money, or the athlete ought to get that money, but i sure don't see as it's the RD's money.

i love RDs. they're my best friends and yours as well. but you're right, willy, this needs pushing.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan,

The answer regarding onedays is: that the RD is suppose to give that money to USAT and not keep it OR Refund it to the athlete. We collect USAT fees AT packet pick-up only and not in the entry fee. That way, those not racing get it back and also only about 8 percent fail to race after picking up their packets. Also in this way we do not comingle USAT funds and ours.

Jack

If there race transfer policy was nice like you mention, what would stop me from buying slots in racing, that I do not plan to race at. Then sell the spot for profit since the event is sold out?

Not saying I would do this, just an idea.

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Reverend Dr. Jay
Lake of the Pines Triathlon fastest bike course record holder - Golden State Super Sprint fastest tri course record holder - Wildflower Long Course slowest run course record holder (4:46:32)

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"If you have a body, you are an athlete." -Bill Bowerman

"If there race transfer policy was nice like you mention, what would stop me from buying slots in racing, that I do not plan to race at. Then sell the spot for profit since the event is sold out?"

in (let us say) rock concerts, you are usually allowed to buy up to 8 tickets, and scalping isn't really a big problem. in triathlon, it would be much harder, because a name, address, etc., must be associated with the entry. so one person is only allowed to buy one entry.

"easy," you might say, "i'll just make 20 fictitious names and do it that way." fine. but there would be rules against this, and one of the rules would be that if you get caught, you lose the value of the entries and don't get your money back. so it would be a very high-risk scheme to buy 20 X $200 WF entries and then lose $4000 when all your entries are invalidated. plus, if you ALSO made it illegal to profit via the scheme, then the person who you tried to sell the entry to for $300 would rat you out and you'd lose your investment.

so let's say you didn't do 20 entries to WF, just 20 entries in your own name to every popular race on the planet. still, if it was illegal to sell your entry for more than face value, you'd still have a problem. you try to sell WF for $300, you get finked on by the guy looking to buy the entry, and poof, you lose your $200 WF entry value.

so i don't think scalping would be a problem in triathlon.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

" Also in this way we do not comingle USAT funds and ours."

are you sure $9 is not collected during online registration? there's what you do as an RD, and then there's what others do. i don't remember, because i've been annual member most of the time i've raced. don't a lot of events collect the one-days during online reg?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan,

Other RD's may do that and I certainly have seen it, but I don't for 2 reasons: I don't co-mingle USAT funds and think about by adding the $9.00 it ups the "admin fee" either me or the athlete pays for registering on line. If it's the athlete, someone is earning money off of that $9.00. We don't though. You are welcome to go to our site and view our on line sign up.

Jack

"the only difference between us is that i think it's a market issue, not a governing body issue."

Exactly - it's a market issue. If RD's do it right, they can make big strides to resolve the refund policy ruckus while making a bit of profit in the process. Automate race transfers online, make it impossible for people profit from *selling* their spots (because you can't transfer your spot outside of the online registration application), and charge a small transfer fee. If you registered and you want to back out, you go to the site, pull up your name, check a box, and your spot is up for sale/transfer. If there's enough market demand, someone will take your spot (for the original registration fee + maybe a $20 transfer fee split by the two parties). You get your $$$ back and someone else gets to race. No market for your spot? Too bad. It could be really simple and it would make everyone happy.

"Other RD's may do that and I certainly have seen it, but I don't"

this is just a question i have. well, it's two questions:

1. if other RDs charge the $9 during online registration, and they don't race, who gets to keep the $9? my guess is the RD, but he hasn't earned it, and nobody ever asks for it back. but maybe i'm wrong on several counts here, don't know.

2. why doesn't USAT consider having the $9 go directly to its account from active (or whomever). it seems to me that USAT could fix a variety of problems here, for example: RDs who're late or who default on this money; and generating an online database of one-dayers to which to market.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

>>so i don't think scalping would be a problem in triathlon.<<

DISAGREE!

First of all, you are making more work for the RDs, trying to be the police. And since when do people abide by the rules??? For christ's sake, drafting is rampant in many races and with race marshalls and that's against the rules. Does that stop people? No. (And, speaking of rule breakers...how about that rule of NO DOGS in the Wildflower Expo area???) ;-)

>>then the person who you tried to sell the entry to for $300 would rat you out and you'd lose your investment.<<

Again, I disagree. Do you not go go to concerts much? The popular concerts are ALL selling at higher than face value. Maybe not by the scalper on the street, but by the ticket brokers. What you'll have are entry brokers. I wouldn't mind being the Alcatraz entry broker--I'd be sitting sweet. I get a number of sob story/begging emails each week...HOW CAN I GET IN TO ALCATRAZ???? I'd hate to read TriCal's email. But, I digress. I think if someone wants an entry bad enough, they will pay for it and won't care if it's over the value and won't rat the seller out. Besides, just buy it in someone else's name and sell it. Sure, your approach might work for 99% of the USA, but not here.

clm, the pissy

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

"The popular concerts are ALL selling at higher than face value."

okay, but again, concert tickets aren't matched up to names. while i think it's a market issue, i think the federation could get together with active, signmeup, and everyone could agree on some rules that would work well.

i don't think scalping is going to be a big problem in tri as long as the registration is attached to a name. if you HAD to do the transfer online, and the process included refunding one guy's CC and charging another, then scalping can't take place.

except if the bump-up in the fee took place offline. yes, a guy could say, "send me $100 in the mail and we'll do the transfer online," but let me ask you. is the race transfer selling still a big thing in the bay area? (i don't know). if USAT's clamp-down has dried that up, then a similar prohibition against scalping ought to do the trick, i'd think. easy to catch guys cheating, because you can't sign up for a race anonymously.

(keep in mind, i'd have RDs do this only on a voluntary basis.)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan,

If the paperwork for the post sanction/race is done correctly, then the money should go any place but be kept by the RD. For instance if the RD indictes that person raced, it should go to USAT. Otherwise it should be refunded.

For the onlines again Directing is entrepeniorial and therefore there is no formal guidance or controls. It's a Race Director issue, one that requires honesty on their part. Then again, if it was you or me paying that one day, bet we'd ask for it back as we had not raced. You know somewhere we all have to take a bit of responsibility. I know the RD should do it but the athlete who makes the RD accountable also helps himself.

Jack

Well Dan here's one for your Database. Directly from the Triathlantic web page:



REFUNDS
A 75% refund will be issued up to 30 days before the date of the event. A request for a refund must be done through the mail only. No email requests will be accepted. The request must be received 30 days before the day of the race. The refund will be issued in the form of a check one week after the date of the race. After the 30 day grace period there will be absolutely no refunds.

TRANSFERS
Athletes may transfer their entry to another athlete up to 30 days before the day of the event without penalty. The request for the transfer MUST be accompanied by the completed application of the athlete that the entry will be transferred to. The request will only be accepted through the mail. No email transfers will be accepted.

Athletes may transfer their entry to another athlete from 30 days before the event to 5 days before the event for an extra $10 fee. A request for the transfer MUST be accompanied by the completed application of the athlete that the entry will be transferred to. The request will only be accepted through the mail. No email transfers will be accepted.

From 5 days before the race until race day - No transfers will be accepted.

RACE SWITCHING
Athletes may not switch an entry from one race to another during the course of the year.



And since I'm writing, allow me to add the opinion of someone still relatively new to triathlons. I may be just lucky to have an organization like Triathlantic in my area, but since they put on well organized, insured, professional races, I don't feel the need to attend many USAT races. Therefore, I don't see the benefit for someone like me to join USAT. If I was doing more than 3 USAT races a year, I could save a buck or two. Otherwise, in my opinion, my $30 dollars doesn't buy me very much. I'm not knocking USAT races, I've done a few of Vigo's races here (Columbia, Eagleman, etc) and they are great, but without the airline voucher, or something other than a gift cert to Sports Basement, there's nothing there for me. I've also been following the election threads and while not currently a member, if I may be allowed to make a suggestion, they should hold the elections in the "off" season. Between work, family, training and racing the last thing I want to do is read about someone running for a USAT position. Off season, while we're sitting around eating our ice cream (preferably without the turd, right Tom?) members might be more inclined to be involved in the process. Just my 2 cents. While I'm still new to the sport (starting my 3rd season) I'm already sick of the useless importance (my opinion) given to organizations like USAT or WTC. Sure they are the dominant figures in this sport, but what do they do for the sport outside of WTC's extensive and successful marketing? When I do USAT races, I pay my $9 and look at it as a cost of doing the race. Outside of that, for me, USAT is useless.

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- Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
P. J. O'Rourke

One sure way to get your money back.



Though I think that it may not be the right thing to do...



If you purchase your entry with a Visa or Mastercard chances are that if you do not go to the race, you can call your CC company, file a claim that you paid for a product that you never got...and Visa will suck the money right back and credit your account. I have done this with a couple on-line purchases and even once at a store that I purchased a speaker from. In the case of the speaker I purchased a $900.00 Mirage OMC2 center channel speaker - on close out from a store that was going out of business. The speaker was damaged when I got it home, the store said "Though fu*king sh*t, no returns". So, I left the speaker there, called Visa and they just got my money back...SUPER simple process that took me less than 5 minutes on the phone with my bank. From what I understand, as part of the process...anyone who accepts Visa or Mastercard must abide by the contracts of the cards that they are accepting. If MY credit card has special contractual policies with me - the merchant has no option but to accept them as part of their agreement with their credit card clearinghouse. (maybe I am wrong...any JD's wanna chime in?)

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

"When I do USAT races, I pay my $9 and look at it as a cost of doing the race. Outside of that, for me, USAT is useless."

thanks for posting, and i don't mind that USAT has to market to you its reasons for existence. they should. in answer to a couple of your questions, and this is just off the top of my head:

1. i just submitted a suggested rule to USAT that is going to substantially change what is determined a legal bike in triathlons. this rule is probably going to be adopted. since USAT is the dominant race organization in the U.S., the bikes you are able to buy next year are all going to be built with this rule in mind (if its adopted). care to have a voice in what sort of equipment is offered to you in retail stores? join USAT and vote. ALL the bikes now available to you are built according to these rules.

2. are you good athlete? want to someday qualify for a natl or world championship? without a worldwide, agreed-upon, process (i.e., a set of federations), there is no fair way for that process to take place.

3. thanks, these are brad's races, right? i'll add this to my database.

4. the BOD needs to be sat and in place in time for the beginning of the season. it can't be sat in the middle of the season. somewhere in between my 7 triathlons, 6 footraces and a bike race, and my next door neighbor's 10 triathlons, 5 footraces and a bike race, we both found time to study up on the election and vote. wasn't that hard.

i don't mean to flush a toilet on your head. i'm glad you posted, and i thank you for your participation in this discussion. i also agree that the federation needs to make its case to you. there is, though, a bit of a chicken-or-egg thing going on. brad doesn't sanction. the reason is, the federation doesn't make a compelling case to him. but if it did, he would. perhaps it could. but it can't if we don't work for that to happen.

i'm turning 47 in three weeks. i had 12 tons of gravel delivered last week. i and my shovel shall commence the work. i'm not dismayed that the rock is not all going to be put in its rightful places within 30 minutes. i'm a lot more patient than i used to be, and i now realize that with every shovel full i get closer to the goal. i look at this federation the same way. (sorry to sound preachy, but i wax all philosphic and this is the shit that comes out).

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Record10ti
Good thought about the visa. I bought a timeshare on ebay that turned out to be a scam and 1.5 yrs after the transaction I got my refund from visa. This might solve much of this issue.

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Jon Bergmann
http://jonbergmann.com

Great points and thanks for the additional information.

I'm not currently interested in or fast enough to worry about nationals or worlds, but that's just me. I'll also never qualify for IMH, so I don't worry too much about that either.

As far as the determination of legal bikes in triathlons, I am interested in that and would love to hear more on what you submitted. I'm one of those folks who buy the frame and build it up on their own, so the more I know, the more legal my bike will be.

Yes, they are Brad's races. But as I posted earlier I do still do one or two of Vigo's or another RD's USAT races each year. They just cost me more $ to have an official tell me I'm still not drafting (in my opinion).

Maybe if USAT did actually market it to me I would be more inclined. I'm a member of my local club (BATC) and subscribe to 3 triathlon magazines. Still, I don't know much or care much for USAT. If they made a compelling argument (you've done more in this post to make me consider USAT then they have in 3 years) they would probably get my $30.

I don't consider your reply as a toilet flush, just a good education. Thanks for replying.

I'm not 47, but will be advancing to the 40+ AG in a couple years. This sport breeds patience. You can't be as slow as I am in a half IM and be impatient.

Thanks Dan.

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- Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
P. J. O'Rourke

[snip]

i thought about what you said. actually, i think i'm in favor of moving the whole election thing around 6 months. as it is now, a board determines a plan for the following year, funds it, and gets it ready for execution. and then hands the ball off to the new board.

if the board was put into place july 1, it would have time to conceive of a plan and then to execute it. the new board would take over when the old board's plan is past the point of altering.

if this were the case, the election would take place over the winter, which is what you suggest is best for voters. everybody wins.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman