I am wondering the same thing. The Caliente looks cool, but why not get the Lucero?

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leslie myers
http://www.foodsensenow.com

Herbert discussed this already a little bit:



http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...earch_string;#565904

Thanks--all of that makes sense, I'm not always on slowtwitch. Just couldn't differentiate from web info. I think the bikes look great.

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leslie myers
http://www.foodsensenow.com

Makes no sense to me. Just seems to confuse the consumer.

Why not call them all Lucero.

You can get the Lucero (3k finish or 12 k finish). I am pretty sure the finish has a very limited if any structural role in the bike.

Then you choose your build kit and paint. Plain carbon, yellow/black, etc. Dura-Ace, Ultegra, Ultrasonic wheels or not, etc.

For instance when buying a car one doesn't call the glossy black car with the non upgrade rims an entirely different model name. It is the same model name you just choose the options.

It just seems that the way QR is marketing their bikes will just confuse people.

The think that drives me crazy is that they won't sell the Caliente and Seduza as a frameset. I guess they are protecting frameset sales of Lucero...

They are different frames made out of a different carbon weave if i am not mistaken. I think Herbert did already explain this on this forum. Look at the link in this thread someone else provided.

Also, there are substantial price point differentiations between the bikes- different wheels and components.

I mean, saying they are all the same is valid I suppose, they do all have round wheels.....

Same, right?

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I did look at the thread and the difference was in the finishing weave of carbon and the component set, which isn't a structural difference.

Thus, my original point of consumer confusion, and analogy to the car market.

It is like going to pick out a car. You pick the color and options. The model name doesn't change just because the color, finish and options do.

I think the point is that the frames are all identical.

The difference in carbon weave (Herbert said that it had no influence on performance) is completely cosmetic. Basically it is just a different paint job.

The build kits are completely different, but as has been pointed out before... why would someone buy the caliente over the seduza when you could by the seduza and then be able to buy race wheels for you specific needs.

Why would they? Because they like yellow better.

Oh, hmmm. I was under the impression that there were some differences in performance/durability between the make-up of the carbon frames.

I do not know for a fact though.

That makes a valid point though: Most of us have no idea what is going on inside the frame sometimes- i.e., what it is made out of and why. That would be pretty interesting information for me to have. For many manufacturers and vendors that info is heavily represented in their sales literature. ABG has done a very good job educating prospective consumers about various titanium properties in their previous catalogs.

I'd love to see a similar discussion of carbon.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

OT Tom, I'm looking for a good quality helmet that is primarily black/dark grey with yellow accents. Any suggestions?

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_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man

I think Giro has one with this color story...

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I saw that one on their website. It's perfect. I don't think it is a current offering. My wife needs a new one and matching color scheme is important....

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_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Based on how popular the Lucero was last year the goal was to offer a couple complete bikes with a different look and a more affordable price. While many people like the stealth look of the Lucero, others prefer a bit "louder" finish as is on the Caliente, and other like the neutral finish on the Seduza. The 12K finish and the paint helped to get the price down plus of course the difference of the groups. The Lucero though can be had as a frameset only, while Caliente and Seduza are only available as complete bikes.
Basically different strokes for different folks.
Hope this helps,
Herbert
Quintana Roo

Even the pricing is messed up.

Why get an Ultegra Lucero

when one could get a Seduza + Zipp 999 for about the same price. Seduza a mix of Ultegra and Dura-ace.

Lucero Ultegra: $4695.00
http://www.trisports.com/20qurooluul.html

Seduza + Zipp 999 = $2999+$1770.99 = $4, 769.99
http://aebike.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=30&SKU=WE0834
http://www.trisports.com/20quroose.html

@Herbert

I have the 2004 caliente (the orange one). I am very happy with that bike and fully understand the lineup. The Lucero is a great bike, but I would never buy it. Too plain, too boring, too expensive. For me its like a mercedes, maybe with a big engine, but still an old peoples car. The new caliente is exactly what I would buy, if I were looking for a tribike. My tribike is not my "main" bike, its the "corvette" and it should look like one (aka loud). Thats part of the fun, if I were fully reasonable, I would ride my trek for triathlons on my level (about 10:30, where training matters more than tools). On the other hand, if I were very restricted on money, the kilo would be an option as an "only" bike.

But the new caliente makes me - a former caliente buyer - get that typical "new bike itch" immidiately. IMHO the Lucero and the caliente target completely different people, mercedes drivers vs. vette drivers.

The only thing I would be missing on the caliente are 3 or 4-spoke wheels like xentis (www.xentis.at) or hed ...

From the performance side, don't think that matters too much. those who need this kind of bikes get them for free, the buyers just want something to play. I will get such a bike sooner or later, but what is the performance difference between a 2004 aluminium+carbon seatstays against a 2006 carbon caliente really? Internal cable routing? 10 seconds? Weight? 20 seconds ... Not really a difference on my level.

I think the seduza/caliente/lucero thing is crazy.

But the Kilo looks better than ever, by a long shot. Anybody know the what the retail will be?

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

There is no performance difference between the Lucero, Caliente or Seduza.

Same shape bike, no structural difference. It is not like buying a Mercedes versus a Corvette. those are 2 entirely different shaped cars.

The difference is in buying a glossy finished corvette in yellow with 17" wheels versus a metallic black vette with 20" wheels and a built in MP3 player, cruise control, etc.

My point is just buy the Seduza and a pair of Zipp 999 for the same price as Lucero with an Ultegra build which is worse in terms of components and the only real difference is in the finish (i.e., the paint).

Also, I don't think that the Corvette analagoy is appropriate as bang for your buck you can't get a faster car than a Corvette Z06, unlike the QR line-up for 2006 which is pricy and no bargain.

sorry, my post above got truncated (my big word du jour). why buy the Lucero vs. the Seduza? becasue Nytro has full Ultegra on sale for $3K right now, minus the real design wheels. Lucero has a carbon seatpost vs. aluminum for Seduza, carbon aerobars vs. aluminum for Seduza, a better headset than the seduza, a better (stiffer) crankset than the seduza and looks cooler (all but the last actually have some merit).

a plug for the nytro guys. very helpful, patient and willing to work with buyer on price (i.e. they would let me swap out any one or more parts that I wanted depending on a price point). I had never dealt with them before, being on the other side of the country, but would absolutely do so again (over a local dealer who sells this bike, but whom I choose not to patronize)

Maybe I'm missing something, but of teh geometries are the same, teh carbon, other than the finish is the same, why not offer one bike iwth ALOT of options.

If someone wanted to order a carbon bike, they'd specify what color scheme, groupo package and wheelset they wanted and you woudl get charged for "X" frame and finish, "Y" groupo and "Z" wheelset. Seems more practical to me...well better for the consumer anyway.

~Matt

Being nitpicky, but wouldn't the 3k weave have significantly less built in stress? With a 3k weave, the cloth lays flatter so the stresses are more inline with the material. However, I doubt in a bicycle application it makes any difference.



Daniel

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The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock

I think it's brilliant. No need to make any inovations or new bikes just cookie cutter the carbon and make up names. Fantastic.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

It's too expensive to customize. It's just like homes custom costs more. On bikes, custom features, paint, components, builds cost extra in terms of time, logistics and infrastructure to the company. Much more cost effective to standardize/simplify the models and bang them out. You heard from Herbert the goal was to offer the carbon frame at a better price, segement the market that way.

Well... not always. Some companies have made their whole niche customization at a great price. Look at Dell Computers. Granted, ABG cannot expect to do the volume that Dell does. Nor can they expect to have the market pull to get cheap parts.

But, there is a valid argument that the 3 carbon frames are sufficiently similar to the point that allowing parts customization, within manufacturer or LBS set limits, may in fact, be more beneficial to the end user.

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- Nick
Now that I know some of you guys look through the special needs bags for kicks, I'm gonna put some really weird stuff in mine. I can see it now. "What the heck was he going to do with a family pack of KFC chicken, a football helmet full of peanut butter, a 12 inch rubber dildo, and naked pictures of Bea Arthur?"