it never gets easier, you just get stronger.

I would just say HTFU, but I'm just like you. I'll work my way up to it, and start by doing 10x3min, 5x5min, 3x10min, stuff like that. But intervals under 20 minutes should be well over FTP, so by the time I do 2x20, they're not so tough mentally. 235,245 does not indicate a 240FTP. It simply says you can pedal for 20 minutes around 240 watts. FTP probably around 215-225 for you.

What is the rationale for 215-225? I would have thought it was at least
95% of 245 if you just treated the second 20 minutes as an 20 min FTP test.

That's what I was thinking too.

Aside from that, the only way I could get through 2X20's which were boring as all heck to me was to watch "Robot Chicken" with the subtitles on.

I thought you were asking the 40 year olds something

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Fortunately, I still have a couple years before I start that thread. So what is
it like being so old? ;)

Feels like being faster then most of the 20 year olds ;0)

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Joseph if you contact Tony at "Flamme Rouge" (http://www.flammerouge.je/) he'll send you a free of charge training spreadsheet for an 8 week work out for FTP development. It's really good, I got mine a couple of weeks ago.

Wow - if you're saying FTP of 215 to 225 for someone that is doing 235-245 for a 2x20 - I'm going to go in a corner in cry because that means my FTP is beyond depressing right now.

No way in hell I could do FTP + 10 to 15 watts for a 2x20.


Maybe if I was tapered/rested for the workout, but on a normal day/week nope - see seven deadly sins: http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/...ven-deadly-sins.html

2 x20' is a big workout in my opinion to be doing so early, start with intervals in the 6-8' range with half time recovry

True FTP could be higher. Or lower. Just depends on how those 2x20min intervals are executed, and especially the OP's fitness. Someone who can maximally bust out 240 watts over a 40 minute period of time with a break in the middle would probably be around 225 for 60 minutes. Again, could be a bit higher or lower. 95% of 240 watts is 228 watts.

I don't care so much about the raw number, but it would be nice to get a decent
ball-park for planning my watt range for the next 2x20. Most plans seem to call
for between 95-105% of FTP for the intervals. 245 watts with a 215 FTP would be
~115%. I've also been called out in the past on another thread for "sandbagging"
my FTP when I reported a CTL number that was deemed too high for the amount
of training I did. On that thread I was convinced that a quasi-accurate FTP would
be a good idea. Seems like sandbagging here would have two downsides. I'd
have a false sense of training loads like CTL and would plan intervals that were too
easy.

well isnt the point to sort of go balls out for the 2x20, then take a 2 min rest in between then take the average for the 42 minutes?

That would certainly put your average below whatever you did during those 20 minute intervals.

Maybe the OP is confused, or somebody is, Obviously 20 minute efforts are going to be harder than what you would do for a1 hour effort.

I'm in the same boat. This my 2d year with a pt, and the first winter that I've been doing indoor 2x20 with real regularity-mainly because the sufferfest vids are the only ones that sufficiently motivate me indoors because they "pull me in" to the "race". (HHNF is the one I use for these). I'm by no means fast, but am improving steadily (which is all us old guys can ask for-I'm a 2x20 +2 +15 extra lbs min).

-for me, the first ten minutes of the first interval, and the last five of the second are mentally and physically the hardest.
-music is key.
-When you have the intensity dialed in right, you feel great when they're finished. You should feel challenged but not shattered, and should feel encouraged. The power graph will be (relatively) smooth (if your AP is 200, and NP is 229 for 20 min, you were trying too hard-that might suggest surge above l4/recover at l2). I can tell that I'm getting stronger by "postponing the heart attack"-the lines only really get jumpy for a period towards the end of the second interval (right around 15 min).
-Consistency yields really good results--like water on a stone. Nothing seems to happen at first, but over time...
-you may change the way you feel about the trainer in that you can really dial in the intensity in a way that is (for me anyway) much harder on the road-due not only to changes in wind, grade, etc, but also because it's fun to look around and relax every once in a while. Hanging on every weekend with a group that's faster than me for a little longer motivates me to get on the trainer. (I pay no attention to the PT until after the ride).

Hope that's helpful.

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If you are right, that would have been good to know about two weeks ago ;)
I've already done a number of them (with some other rides sprinkled in):
Jan 3rd: 2x20@222,223
Jan 4th: 1x20@230
Jan 10th: 2x20@233,237
Jan 12th: 1x20@240
Jan 14th: 2x20@227,233
Jan 18th: 2x20@238,247
I'd been more or less trying to do them every other day, but as I pointed out in the
OP, I've weaseled my way out of a couple.
While I had 6 weeks off the bike, I have been doing a lot of swimming (20K yards/week),
so my cardio base is ok and I came off a pretty big year (for me) on the bike (~5K miles).

Yes 95% of 240 is 228, but that "method" is for an all out 20 minute effort that leaves you blown, not a 20 minute effort that leaves you able to repeat it, or kick up the wattage for another 20 minute interval 2 to 4 minutes later. (Or less if you want to use AC's guidance of only long enough to turn around and gather your senses).

But you are right - it there are a lot of other factors in play - fitness, mental fortitude, recovery along with a few others.


My best advice to the OP is don't over think it, and simply keep plugging way and choose a number that feels right. Or do some critical power testing, or simply man up and do an hour TT.

Do you have the book "Training and Racing with a Power Meter" by Allen/Coggan? There is a good FTP test protocol in there better than anything mentioned in this thread so far. Another good test would be to take your bike out, and attempt to ride at 240 watts for 60 minutes. Can you? If not, what was the normalized power of the 60 minute test? That's a closer estimate of your true FTP.

http://www.flammerouge.je/...stant/functhresh.htm

Here's a link from Flamme Rouge. If you read the article it says to do 2 x 20 at 85% FTP. That is unless I'm completely misunderstanding the article.

So I'm replying to the OP here, but would like thoughts from others. I swear most guys here post about doing 2 x 20 at 95-100% FTP. Does that mean they are training too hard? Is there actually MORE to be gained by doing 2 x 20 @ 85%? Heck I've seen guys here post they do 2 HOURS at 85%. So 2 x 20 at 85% or 2 hours at 85%???......that's a heck of a difference.

I ask because really have no dog in the fight. Trying to learn as well.

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Is that really the point? As I mentioned somewhere else, the type of 2x20 that I was
trying to execute was to do the 20's at 95-105% of FTP, depending on how good I felt.
I was also taking 5 minutes between instead of 2. I'm certainly not wed to that way of
doing it. Your way sounds harder ;)

Yes, I have the Allen/Coggan book. I don't love that protocol, but I'll
take it under advisement. At this point, I'm not willing to take my bike out and
ride at 240 watts for 60 minutes. It is cold outside ;) If I'm having problems
being tough enough to do 2x20s, no way in hell I'm doing 60 minutes in
30 degree weather.

I guess I didnt read all that closely. I like the 7 deadly sins article, I tend not to overthink things.

I think I can solve my HTFU problem by combining some advice from this thread.
#1 My FTP is actually 215
#2 Do 2x20s at 85%
So I only need to do 2x20s at 185 watts. I definitely don't dread that ;) Sure, I
don't think it will make me faster, but no dread...

On the serious side, I'm sure 85% FTP has some benefits too. Sounds more like
what I've heard called sweet spot training. As far as I can tell, there is pretty active
debate about what is most effective. I think 85% seems too easy, but that is just
my relatively uninformed opinion.

I am doing mine right around 94% of FTP, trying to stay close to that sweet spot everyone talks about. When I only do 85%, I don't feel as challenged. This may be a sign it is time for a re-test, but 85% just seems too easy and like I am not getting the return for my time.

To the OP regarding motivation, it helps to have an image and goal in your mind for the days you don't feel like riding the bike, but rather the sofa. Develop the images and end goals so you can call on them when you need them. Watching a sufferfest or even some cycling footage is really helpful too. I DVR'd a 2011 highlight special of the various tours. It feels more like you are suffering in good company when you are "riding in the pack" climbing the Alp d'Huez. I don't mind being the fat guy on that group ride, and it is a good distraction from the pain cave, or at least you feel like other people are there with you.

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"It never gets easier, you just go faster."
-Greg LeMond

2x20 @ 85% FTP isn't a "good" threshold workout.

If you're going to be riding @ 85% of FTP - just go out and ride that effort until you can't or you run out of time. It's a good SST workout..

The appropriate intensity for a 2x20 is 95%+ of FTP.