Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys

Apr 10, 18 21:33

Post #1 of 58 (6715 views)

I have some questions after reading the Ryf swim set thread that I thought might warrant their own thread. I know I am about to show a lot of ignorance here. I'm okay with that.

I never use paddles nor PBs. When I think about it, I did so some pull sets in the past (2005-2010) but not many. And lately I haven't done any, I don't even have paddles in my swim bag anymore. The last couple of months I've done a few pull sets, but all without paddles/PBs. I've never really understood the point of using paddles/PBs, and I have to admit that I've fallen into the trap of thinking that they are crutches for poor swimmers, and why would you use them if you didn't NEED them? My other reason for not using them is more logistical: I'm terrible at flip turns with them on. The buoy always pops out and my hands get all wonky. And I don't like NOT doing flip turns, especially on longer sets, because I feel like I'm losing too much time on the wall. Even taking flips out of the equation, I'm always slower with a PB than without.

I'm not a great swimmer, but I am above average (29-31 minute half swim, iron PR of 58 minutes). I don't think I have great body position, but it's not bad and I never worry about my legs sinking and dragging me down (which is something I've commonly heard from PB users). I have tried very hard to improve these times, but have never been able to break through into the ~26 minute half range.

But after reading the Ryf thread, I'm starting to understand that there is more to it than just helping poor swimmers get through sets. Developing shoulder strength makes a lot of sense to me (so much so that I'm kind of mad that it never dawned on me before, oh well). And I'll paraphrase another point from that thread: "choppy/dirty water hides a lot of body position flaws, so in open water pack swimming situations, while in a wetsuit, having the strength to hold on to a fast pair of feet is most important." Again, this makes a lot of sense to me.

So, a couple of questions:

1. How much time do many of you devote to pulling in a given swim workout? 50%? 75%?

2. (More important to me) What is the role of the PB here? Can I skip it? I can get on board with using the paddles to strengthen, improve my catch, and force an early vertical forearm, but like I said, I really hate the buoy. What is it adding? Is it a vital part of the equation?

Thanks very much in advance.

------------------------------------------------------------
Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [CCF] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 0:07

Post #2 of 58 (6654 views)

I made comment in the Ryf thread explaining my love of the pb but the other option if you don't like the pb is flotation shorts. I use more over the pb since my stroke and swim strength has been improving. It helps with body position essentially making it slightly easier and still allows you to kick. Often my coach will have me swim certain sets with no pb or sometimes particular sessions but most of the time I swim with a pb.

Brett pretty much sums up exactly the way I see it and feel here.

http://trisutto.com/the-pull-buoy-debate-2/

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [CCF] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 1:31

Post #3 of 58 (6593 views)

As a follow on question. Should I be kicking when using a pull buoy if it is not a specific pull set?

I was trained (decades ago) under the assumption that a buoy was only used to maintain proper body position when you weren't kicking. Bands were often paired with buoys to further prevent kicking. I have started swimming with a tri club again and I noticed the vast majority of athletes still kick when using buoys. Overall it means many of the people I train with are faster with buoys while I am significantly slower. Am I doing it wrong?

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [scott8888] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 2:34

Post #4 of 58 (6558 views)

I'm not sure but I don't kick and I am faster with a pb. I always assumed the idea was not to kick.

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [CCF] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 3:37

Post #5 of 58 (6517 views)

Hmm. Well, my coach has us on the PB quite a bit and usually with an objective. Yesterday we did a bunch of 125s working on lengthening our stroke and getting stroke count down to 14 per length. I tend to be high turn over and it helps me with eliminating the bob I tend to get when I’m on a fast paced interval.

PB is good to practice for body rotation and stability in the water. I actually don’t like using it as my legs want to cramp from holding on to the bouy. But I’ve never had a problem flipturning with one.

I think if I kicked during a PB set I would get whapped with a kickboard. In 35 years of swimming I’ve never kicked with a PB.

So far as paddles, we just don’t use them during practice because there aren’t any in the kickboard/bouy bin. Occasionally I’ll bring a pair to help me keep up with faster swimmers so I can make an interval.

I think that for mid distance+ triathlon there is much more need for a strong pull than for a strong kick. The triathletes in our swim group either do a light 3-kick stroke or simply do a relaxed kick to hold body position where the smoking fast swim meeters kick like motorboats. Like it was mentioned, the bouy mimics the wetsuit quite a bit. When I ocean swim I rarely kick at all except to get kelp off my feet.

IMHO if you aren’t as fast as you want to be there is a place for a bouy in your workout.

Hillary Trout
San Luis Obispo, CA

Your trip is short. Make the most of it.
https://www.slogoing.net/

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [SLOgoing] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 3:50

Post #6 of 58 (6505 views)

I do about 10-20% of the workout with paddles and a buoy, and that was true even when I was doing 10-15K a day decades ago. I have always used smaller paddles (red Speedos) as the larger ones put too much strain on my shoulders. IMO, the purpose of paddles is not really to increase shoulder strength (although it might have an effect there), it's to improve my feel in the water. Paddles make the catch point very clear to me and allow me to feel when I'm slipping water through the stroke. DPS drills with paddles are particularly effective for me. In other words, I've always used pulling as a stroke improvement drill. The point of the buoy is more debatable. I understand the idea of reducing the kick and isolating the arms, but you can certainly still kick with a buoy. IMO, the biggest effect of the buoy is to provide buoyancy (obviously, lol) and get your hips up into to a proper racing position. Again, it's a drill thing for me rather than a "training" thing. Is this worth doing? Who knows.

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [scott8888] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 4:03

Post #7 of 58 (6497 views)

About this kicking with a bouy thing... I just don’t see how that is helpful. The kick starts at the hip and goes down the whole leg ending with the ankles whipping your foot to kick water back and your body forward. If you kick with a bouy it is knee driven and harder to push water back/yourself forward. It seems like you’d just be mashing down on the water with your calves and feet.

The kick that drives your hips into rotation is equally important for starting your pull. So if you throw a bouy in with your kick it seems like you would be taking away from your stroke rather than focusing your stroke on body position, reach and pull.

Hillary Trout
San Luis Obispo, CA

Your trip is short. Make the most of it.
https://www.slogoing.net/

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [CCF] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 6:29

Post #8 of 58 (6395 views)

I'm a subscriber to Tower 26. We do a ton of pulling. It always with a snorkel, buoy and band, but there's never paddles (well traditional paddles anyway, we will use tech paddles on recovery days - see link below). The buoy is the eney buoy that you can fill with water.

With the buoy empty we are working on alignment, rotation, and keeping your hands in the "channels" during the pull. Those sets are usually reserved for recovery sections of a workout, either between hard sets or at the end of the workout.

We add water to one or both chambers to do power pulling. This will challenge your body position bigtime, especially with both chambers filled. And will also build strength in your pull.

When using the buoy, focus on pointing your feet and angling them in, touching your big toes together. That feeling has translated over to swimming without the buoy and keeping my legs in good position without much kick.

This has all made a huge impact on my technique and times.

If you want to know why Gerry doesn't like traditional paddles for triathlon swimming (well for all but elite swimmers anyway): http://tower26.com/category/equipment/

http://www.theswimmall.com/...pd_id=TECHPADDLE-T26

Last edited by: Sean H: Apr 11, 18 6:29

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [CCF] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 9:12

Post #9 of 58 (6278 views)

Yes pulling should be the bulk of any triathletes swim training. And a lot of that with paddles too, if not all. Your buoy problems are not that big a deal, I think just because you dont and haven't used it that much. It will go away after about a 100k of using it; (-;

Besides forcing you to pull correctly the paddles also build shoulder and pull strength, which are both required when you have 5mm of rubber on them. I think this is why a lot of triathletes have issues on race day, especially the ones that dont pull or do some OW swims in their suits. It is just a shock to the system, and then they blame it on the wetsuit, rather than taking the blame for not properly training for a specific type of swimming.

And holding someones feet in OW is not a technique thing, it is a strength and sighting game. All that turbulent water in front of you does not lead itself to take advantage of a beautiful and proper pull. It just requires a strong catch and front quadrant pull, which pulling mimics and strengthens.

And like motor pacing does for cycling speed, pulling lets most people just swim faster, and thus they get used to swimming faster. And it absolutely translates to races, even when it is a non wetsuit swim. I see a lot of non swimming pros get really good by doing mostly pulling, and then at Kona still have great swims. It allows you to swim in a lane up, and just that alone will push you to a new level. Swim with faster swimmers, you just get faster.

I have been saying this for 30 years, I'm glad that it has finally caught on and now most top coaches with squads have integrated it into their programs. Next up are the folks that train alone or were in some sort of denial, or just have coaches that dont understand the difference in triathlon swimming from pool swimming. there are just some people that will never need to know the finer points of pool swimming, and just getting stronger and faster pulling will translate well for them in their OW Tri swims..It is hard for some of them to accept, just like when I told them about breathing more and off the walls 10 years ago. I got pushback from every top swimming coach I knew, and now it is common practice, even for 100m sprinters...

Old theories die hard sometimes, but if they are not right, then they will eventually change when actual athletes prove them wrong..

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [Sean H] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 10:02

Post #10 of 58 (6208 views)

Sean H wrote:

http://www.theswimmall.com/...pd_id=TECHPADDLE-T26

That thing looks like the next level of fist gloves. A 'paddle' for your forearm while minimizing your hand area. Fist gloves were the single best tool that helped my swimming.

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [AKCrafty] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 10:34

Post #11 of 58 (6177 views)

AKCrafty wrote:

Sean H wrote:

http://www.theswimmall.com/...pd_id=TECHPADDLE-T26

That thing looks like the next level of fist gloves. A 'paddle' for your forearm while minimizing your hand area. Fist gloves were the single best tool that helped my swimming.

I have the tech paddles and I have it very hard to swim with them.

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [CCF] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 10:45

Post #12 of 58 (6150 views)

I do a ton of pull. I use a band, buoy in almost every workout to some degree, with or without paddles. I think the buoy is important to maintain body position to maximise the effect, so i reccommend using a band and a buoy, that seems to help it stay in better. Workout percentages differ, sometimes it's only during warm-up, sometimes it's 80% of the workout.

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [CCF] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 10:46

Post #13 of 58 (6147 views)

Quote:

1. How much time do many of you devote to pulling in a given swim workout? 50%? 75%?

2. (More important to me) What is the role of the PB here? Can I skip it? I can get on board with using the paddles to strengthen, improve my catch, and force an early vertical forearm, but like I said, I really hate the buoy. What is it adding? Is it a vital part of the equation?

You're faster than me and a more experienced swimmer, so take this for what it's worth, but I've always thought of the pull buoy as having 2 purposes. One, allows me to get in some additional yardage on the arms when my legs are just dead tired. It's just easier to swim when you don't have to use your core and legs to hold position. But more importantly, it's used when I'm isolating something else in the stroke (pull, catch, rotation, breathing, etc.). So much going on in a swim stroke at one time. Trying to concentrate on one thing throws something else out of whack sometimes. Pull buoy has allowed me to slow the whole thing down.

I do think it's a crutch for people though. I don't quite get the body position thing. Learning the body position with an aid isn't the same as learning without. I can understand using it a bit to get a feel for the position, but hundreds and thousands of yards with it seems like a crutch. Again, I specifically said earlier that I use it as a crutch when I'm tired. But I like to think I'm fully aware of what I'm doing and it's not very often at all. Maybe 5-10% of my swimming uses a pull buoy.....if that. Might take it out once a week.

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [CCF] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 10:58

Post #14 of 58 (6127 views)

Every triathlete (save for maybe Daniela) should be pulling more. Always with paddles, pull buoy and a strap/tube around the ankles. If your shoulders hurt, it's not because you're pulling too much, it's because you lack the rotator cuff strength to handle the increased load. Bust out the bands or use the cable pulley machine at the gym and give your rotator cuffs a little TLC at least twice a week. Then pull more. Then get even bigger paddles and pull more.

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 10:59

Post #15 of 58 (6123 views)

TulkasTri wrote:

AKCrafty wrote:

Sean H wrote:

http://www.theswimmall.com/...pd_id=TECHPADDLE-T26

That thing looks like the next level of fist gloves. A 'paddle' for your forearm while minimizing your hand area. Fist gloves were the single best tool that helped my swimming.

I have the tech paddles and I have it very hard to swim with them.

if you don't have one, get the eney buoy and use it empty with the tech paddles. empty the eney buoy provides way more support than a regular foam buoy, it's awesome.

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [Sean H] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 11:01

Post #16 of 58 (6117 views)

Sean H wrote:

TulkasTri wrote:

AKCrafty wrote:

Sean H wrote:

http://www.theswimmall.com/...pd_id=TECHPADDLE-T26

That thing looks like the next level of fist gloves. A 'paddle' for your forearm while minimizing your hand area. Fist gloves were the single best tool that helped my swimming.

I have the tech paddles and I have a hardtime swimming with them.

if you don't have one, get the eney buoy and use it empty with the tech paddles. empty the eney buoy provides way more support than a regular foam buoy, it's awesome.

I do, I love that buoy. I'm never using another buoy ever again. I'm usually faster with paddles + buoy, but with the tech paddles I'm always so much slower.

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [BradC] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 11:09

Post #17 of 58 (6105 views)

meh, i'll pass.

i'm slower with the buoy, and it doesn't make me work the upper body any harder. I just do less work overall (no problem breathing 3 or 4 on even a hard pull set, but a hard swim I'm breathing 2).

That's me though. Other people respond differently and have different strengths / weaknesses.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 11:17

Post #18 of 58 (6092 views)

TulkasTri wrote:

Sean H wrote:

TulkasTri wrote:

AKCrafty wrote:

Sean H wrote:

http://www.theswimmall.com/...pd_id=TECHPADDLE-T26

That thing looks like the next level of fist gloves. A 'paddle' for your forearm while minimizing your hand area. Fist gloves were the single best tool that helped my swimming.

I have the tech paddles and I have a hardtime swimming with them.

if you don't have one, get the eney buoy and use it empty with the tech paddles. empty the eney buoy provides way more support than a regular foam buoy, it's awesome.

I do, I love that buoy. I'm never using another buoy ever again. I'm usually faster with paddles + buoy, but with the tech paddles I'm always so much slower.

oh yeah, you're definitely gonna be slower w/ the tech paddles. they're mainly for forcing you to set up your pull correctly and not pulling too early in the stroke. then when your arm is in position to push water backward, rip it through.

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [Sean H] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 11:19

Post #19 of 58 (6081 views)

Sean H wrote:

TulkasTri wrote:

Sean H wrote:

TulkasTri wrote:

AKCrafty wrote:

Sean H wrote:

http://www.theswimmall.com/...pd_id=TECHPADDLE-T26

That thing looks like the next level of fist gloves. A 'paddle' for your forearm while minimizing your hand area. Fist gloves were the single best tool that helped my swimming.

I have the tech paddles and I have a hardtime swimming with them.

if you don't have one, get the eney buoy and use it empty with the tech paddles. empty the eney buoy provides way more support than a regular foam buoy, it's awesome.

I do, I love that buoy. I'm never using another buoy ever again. I'm usually faster with paddles + buoy, but with the tech paddles I'm always so much slower.

oh yeah, you're definitely gonna be slower w/ the tech paddles. they're mainly for forcing you to set up your pull correctly and not pulling too early in the stroke. then when your arm is in position to push water backward, rip it through.

Ah, I didn't know it was normal to be slower with them. Today I learned. I use to be a T26 subscriber too from May-Dec of last year, and I was coaching myself for the bike and run, but when I decided to do Oceanside I thought a full tri coach would be a better option, so I dropped T26. That's why I have all their toys.

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 11:22

Post #20 of 58 (6073 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

meh, i'll pass.

i'm slower with the buoy, and it doesn't make me work the upper body any harder. I just do less work overall (no problem breathing 3 or 4 on even a hard pull set, but a hard swim I'm breathing 2).

That's me though. Other people respond differently and have different strengths / weaknesses.

I'm with you. Pulling isn't getting me aerobically ready. It isn't getting my stroke endurance where it needs to be either.

Edit: But in fairness, you and I may not be typical either.

Last edited by: SH: Apr 11, 18 11:24

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [CCF] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 11:36

Post #21 of 58 (6047 views)

Has anyone here tried these?

http://www.aquavolo.com/products/sensory-mitts/

And if so, what kind of workouts do you do with them?

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 11:53

Post #22 of 58 (6019 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

meh, i'll pass.

i'm slower with the buoy, and it doesn't make me work the upper body any harder. I just do less work overall (no problem breathing 3 or 4 on even a hard pull set, but a hard swim I'm breathing 2).

That's me though. Other people respond differently and have different strengths / weaknesses.

I commented on the other thread, and I tend to agree with you, Jason.

Your HR has a lower cap when you're pulling, because you're not using your big leg muscles to kick.

I am slower with just a buoy, but faster with paddles and a buoy. If you're truly trying to isolate your upper body, you should also be wearing a band around your legs to prevent you from kicking.

My take is that pulling in swimming is analogous to low cadence work on the bike. Builds "strength" but at an aerobic cost. So you should use it as a compliment to swimming, but not as a substitute.

Note that this is from an experienced swimmer's point of view. If you are having trouble staying horizontal, the pull buoy + paddle combo is valuable because it allows you to swim further, which is critical for inexperienced swimmers. But if I am doing a typical 4-5k masters practice, I think I should be swimming most of that.

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 12:23

Post #23 of 58 (5985 views)

Yes, we’ve been using on the team for a few years now. If a new triathlete/swimmer is going to get any gear, these should be the top of the list. They are a lot better than paddles for someone just starting out.

I’ve seen way too many athletes (pros and AGers) who have taken the “triathlon swim” wisdom to heart, namely use paddles a lot and paddles that are way too big for their technique and strength, screw up their stroke. The most important thing a new triathlete/swimmer can develop is “feel” for the water. Paddles do the exact opposite of developing “feel.”

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [monty] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 12:26

Post #24 of 58 (5979 views)

monty wrote:

Yes pulling should be the bulk of any triathletes swim training. And a lot of that with paddles too, if not all.

PREACH.

Re: Question for Monty et al.: swimming, paddles, and pull buoys [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Apr 11, 18 14:02

Post #25 of 58 (5903 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

meh, i'll pass.

i'm slower with the buoy, and it doesn't make me work the upper body any harder. I just do less work overall (no problem breathing 3 or 4 on even a hard pull set, but a hard swim I'm breathing 2).

That's me though. Other people respond differently and have different strengths / weaknesses.

I am also an ex-swimmer.

I also cannot be bothered doing pull, kick or even stroke sets.

I can see a strong argument that might be made in favor of pull sets...

The argument:
Swimming pull allows you to use less energy to reach a certain speed (assuming big pull buoy and streamline legs). This approach tires out the aerobic system less, but works arm muscles more and improves form (better than swimming hard without pull).

This argument is probably true.

But so what?

The biggest obstacle to swimming fast is still going to be poor form, a lack of volume and badly utilized intensity.

Also many triathletes suffer from “toy obsession disorder.” This dangerous condition causes athletes to over look the basics- volume, intensity, and form in the constant quest for the latest and greatest thing.
The end result is long term sucking.

That said maybe I will start doing more pull.

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