Interesting question. In that I (do not)attend a Christian Church I certainly don't ever call myself a "Christian". I have issues with any religion or social organization that recognizes and fosters distinctions rather than similarities between individuals and groups.

I do have a question though, and this is a sincere one to try to gain insight into the Christian mindset: Do you feel there are times when you are in touch with, or in God's rpescence and then times when you are not? i.e., is the time you spend training and racing somehow taking away from practicing your religion and beliefs?

I find the dialogue about religion and beliefs interesting but I am cautious straying into this topic. You know what they say, never discuss religion and politics...

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Steve,

Very good points, and I think your same thoughts apply to all of us.

Here are serveral points on my take:

First, I use triathlon, a passion no doubt, as an avenue for my religion. I tend to write articles, give speeches, etc that, while not "thumping" sure do have a spiritual message. Maybe that is a little niche "calling" that I have. Anyway, small as it may be, I do that. My IMC article ended up on our church web site and other newsletters, and I didn't even always give it to them - it just sort of made its way around. Let me know and I'll send or post a copy.

Also, I use my workout time for "meditation." I swim at 5:45 most mornings. While swimming I give a little thanks, do a little reflection, and sometimes say a prayer. I don't think you always have to be on your knees.

For me, I find biking "spiritual." I usually ride alone due to working it around family. I meditate, etc, there too. I give thanks and glory for the beauty that surrounds me. I think it makes me ride better, but who knows....well I guess there is an imbedded answer there!

I say a short prayer in the water before each race. Not to good or to win, but for the safety of the competitors and to help me always remember the rules of good sportsmanship. Again, it gives me a connection.

Those are some of my thoughts, I'm sure there aare lots of great ideas bouncing around out there.

---

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Tom,

I agree with you on that statement very much, but that is a point I was trying, obviously not very eloquently, in the other thread - Religion doesn't have to be that way. I'm not sure why it keeps getting thrown in that basket. I suppose bad experiences, but that certainly isn't my view. My all time best religious discussions come on bike rides with Jewish friends, and it is really more of a coming together. I think it can be that way and that it can be good. At least that's my view.

---

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

This is something that I myself struggle with constantly. I always wonder if what would happen if I put as much time in my walk with God as I did in triathlon. But then I look around and see other Christian triathletes doing the same things, and then there are other Christian athletes (football players -- remember, they "work" on Sunday, baseball players, race car drivers, golfers, etc.) making their living "playing," so it makes me feel a little better.

What I try to do is keep my priorities in order: God, family, work, training. I try to do simple things that let my club members know where I stand: I seldom race on Sundays (usually just one or two a year, and often in conjunction with a vacation of some kind), do not participate on group workouts on Wednesday afternoon (church day) or Sunday afternoon rides (too long and take up too much time between the morning and afternoon services). I also try not to let racing/training interfere with activities that go on at the church. For example, I was planning on making my multi-sport debut on the 29th of this month at a sprint tri in Tallahassee, FL, but I recently found out that our Baptist association is holding an association-wide meeting that morning at our church. So I have decided to scrap the tri that day and attend the meeting at the church.

Please do not think that I am writing all this to make myself look righteous or holier than thou. These are guidelines that I have come up with personally, and by following these guidelines I feel more comfortable with my training program.

I think we all have activities that we enjoy doing, activities that for whatever reason make us feel "complete" or are a part of who we are. The key is to keep everything in perspective, keep balance in your life between God, family, training and work, and most importantly, carry your faith with you wherever you go. I try to make sure that I stand firm in my faith when with my club members, and let them know that I'm a Christian and there are certain things that I won't do. Hopefully I can be a witness to them through triathlon and training.

The biggest thing is to realize that through triathlon or running or softball or whatever, you have a platform to be a witness for Christ. Use it as such, and keep everything in perspective. Remain consistent in your faith, be a good father and/or husband, and be a good employee and allow others to see Christ in you wherever you are. You can have a major impact on the people around you -- including your training/racing buddies -- if you (we) do those things.

RP

Hi David, for the purpose of full disclosure part of my religous education includes being thrown out of catichism (however you spell it)at 13 for challengeing the engineering problems a geriatric shipbuilder like Noah would have in putting two of every species on a seaborne vessel when it would be tough to get the San Diego Zoo on the aircraft carrier USS Nimitz (and they don't even have two of every species...) and also listening to Christians in Eastern Europe justifying killing children by saying "They are Muslims and grow up to be terrorists, they deserve to die..." So, yeah, I do have an admitted sensitivity to the potential of hypocracy in any social organiziation (and, like any human, and frequently guilty of exactly the same thing).

Anyway, I appreciate your response.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Steve,

I was in church one Sunday during last year's Lent. Lent in the Greek Orthodox Church is BIG DEAL. Fasting is a major part of it. Lent ends right when St. Anthony's is scheduled at the end of Holy Week (the week up to Easter). (**Major summary here).

The priest on one Sunday was talking about talents. (The bible actually talks of this somewhere, I don't remember where though). If you have talents, and don't use them, that is a sin. That hit home with me.

I think I can be good at the tri stuff. if i waste that, that isn't good. Even if i wasn't "good" at it, it still is something that I have a talent for, b/c i can do it.

So I say, don't hesitate. You can do LOTS of praying on long easy bike rides or runs. Not the kind of prayers that say, "Oh, God, please help me get through this." I mean the real stuff. That can be really a good time to focus on these things, and it is not a waste of time.

WHo says you have to be laying in bed, or kneeling to walk with God. I sincerely think you can be on your bike, or out on a trail doing this same thing.

God doesn't want you to quit this stuff. I truly believe that.

Interesting. One thing that I have found is that since I was 15 years old, I have done some kind of physical activity. I started out playing tennis and lifting weights, and then in college took up running, and more recently, tri. What I have finally realized is that as long as God blesses me with the ability to exercise and remain active, I want to do so. I consider being able to stay active a major blessing, as there are so many people out there for whatever reason that cannot do the things we do. I do not think that training/racing keep me from practicing my beliefs. Again, I try to make sure it doesn't interfere with church activities, and I also let my training buddies know where I stand on my faith. It's all about making our faith a part of our daily activities and not leaving it behind at the church on Sundays or at home during the week.

Training and racing can be a very spiritual thing. Getting out and going on a long run or ride alone, just you and nature, is very relaxing and refreshing. It offers a time of reflection and prayer (though I must confess that if the pace is fast, I find it hard to pray) as well as meditation. So yes, in many instances, training and racing can bring you closer to God. I also have a Christian friend with whom I run sometimes (he's strictly a runner), and at times we talk about our faith and different Biblical topics on our runs. There are all kinds of ways to incorporate God into all areas of our lives, including training/racing. The key is -- how many times have I typed this -- keeping the rest of our lives in balance and perspective.

RP

Tough question, but why not incorporate the two. Prayer, meditation, and seeking your creator for me is easier done while doing these activities. The Bible is full of the "harsh" realities of life. The new Testament speaks many times of how we are tested and made stronger "like steel hardened by fire" and that through the pain we suffer, we actually share in the suffering of Jesus. For me these hard times while training have made me tougher, yet more compasionate for our human condition. I'm more merciful and understanding and beleive that is the point of those words. The may be self inflicted, but the outcome is the same. We are also to focus and rejoice in things that are lovely, honorable and true, tri certainly beats most other things that compete for our attention ie TV, web surfing--caught me, etc. Trappings certainly are the self focus, and loss of true lifes focus. No life or life experiences are cast in stone and somethings "feel" sinful because society says so. Trully provision for the family, whether by time and making money are biblical callings for a parent. I try to lessen the impact of my training (early AM or late PM after tucking the kids in) and many times they don't even know I'm gone. Also be honest with yourself, if your training like a pro and your just not that good, you may have a better payoff spending some time elswhere without really hurting your results.

"Where your treasure is, there your heart is also." I think the thing we fuctionally worship is the thing, person, activity, that consumes us, call it passion. If our passion is triathlon, and our decisions and activity follow, then triathlon has become the object of our affection, what our faith calls worship. If the object is other than God, call it idolatry. So, can triathlon, a good thing, become a bad thing? Yes.

I recall the summer preparing for the first IM. I made the decision to be obssessed about it. I had waited a long time to do it so I just figured I would get it out of my system. Everyday even in the midst of walking down the hall, entering a patient's room, I was multi-tasking. Addressing the needs of the hour but also thinking about training for the day. AFter the race I spent months figuring how what hapened and how to get better. I had become functionally more passionate about triathlon then anything else including God. The feeling was not guilt, but more, WHY? Still turning that one over and I don't think the tentative answers would be of much interest.

Regards,

Chappy

First off, I love the term Christian triathlete. I'm trying to do my best at both but, let's face it, I'm not that good at either. The difference is that no one will make up for my shortcomings as a triathlete and put me on the podium in Hawaii even though I don't deserve it.

There have been so many great points raised here. Does triathlon take me away from God? As many others have answered, there is no better place for me to contemplate than running, swimming or biking alone. Granted things like job, family, money often intrude on my thoughts, but God is in there.

Tom D's question - Am I sometimes closer to God than others? Of course. Like most children I am usually closest when I am facing something I can't handle and choose to move closer. When things are going well, it is much easier for me to get independent and let my faith "backslide" a little. But back to the question above, swimming, biking running and, in my case, hunting and fishing give me great opportunities to try to get back to where I want to be.

Using religion for evil purposes, e.g. condemning others and killing children were brought up. It's a smokescreen. Anyone who does an evil act in the name of religion is trying to rationalize something they know is wrong. (IMO)

What is a sin? BillT's instant definition - intentionally separating yourself from God. I don't think it's wrong to have a glass of wine with dinner but some people do. If you feel it's wrong and do it anyway you have separated yourself, at least a little. If your triathlon training is separating you from your family or your faith and you choose to change nothing, there you go. Some things, though, aren't left to interpretation. There are at least 10 of them. ;-)

Religion binding everyone with rules and regulations. As a former sunday school teacher of mine said, "If your life isn't easier AFTER you become a Christian, you're not doing it right." Bad things happen to Christians just like everyone else but they sure are easier to deal with if you know you're not alone. (This is where that "opiate of the masses" stuff comes from.)

Finally, the big one. Did a man named Noah really get two of every animal on one boat and, even more difficult, live with them there for a very long time? I believe it's a true story, but I leave some room for the writers of the time. Maybe he loaded up the animals in his area with which he was familiar. I don't know, but we are getting a great deal of archeological evidence that a huge flood did ocur in that area at about that time. Hmmm. It's like the story of creation. If we consider the Big Bang theory and what we know about evolution, it bears a striking resemblance to Genesis, except for the compressed time frame. Hmmm again.

I, too, struggle with my commitment to triathlon vs. my commitment to God.

Should I be reading THE Bible instead of the Triathlete's Training Bible?
Should I NEVER race on Sundays?
Should I forego new bike gear and give more to church?

It's easy to lose your mind going back and forth like that. That's why, when I'm really conflicted like that, I just take a mental step back, take a deep breath, and say a prayer for guidance. If you think for a moment of all the ways you DO "worship" God and not of the things you COULD be doing, you'll (hopefully) see that you are doing a lot. Not everyone is called to be a full-time minister of the Gospel. But each Christian can (and does) witness in so many ways. Think of the witness these threads have been over the last few days! Whether or not people are "converted" or not is not up to us; the Holy Spirit will take care of that. But we have shared our faith and perhaps planted a seed in someone's heart that will one day bear fruit.

As has been said, if you use the sport to witness, that is, in its own way, worshipping God. And I completely concur with the comment about using your gifts. I thank God every day for the ability to push my body to its limits. Many, many people are physically unable to do what we do. We should appreciate that gift and exploit it for all its worth, giving God the praise and glory.

Yes, it is VERY easy to over-do it with triathlon (Chappy, your comment about thinking of training while you were doing rounds is SOOOOOOO familiar). But if we give ourselves up to God through prayer and studying His Word, He will guide us to the right balance.

---

Dave in WI
-----------------------------------------------------
"What you once were isn't what you want to be anymore" - Wilco

I think God shows himself to us on a regular basis, every day. It is up to us whether or not we are looking.

Also, the stories of the bible have been mentioned. I believe that these may be true, but are more ment to be taken as images, not on a word for word basis. This is the teaching of the Catholic church.

Today is Ash Wednesday. What are you doing to observe Lent? It doesn't have to be giving up something. It can be committing to do something. Me? I'm debating on giving up swearing, but am open to suggestions. :)

have a wonderful day all,

tommy

Tom:

Have you ever heard Sheila T give her talk? I was profoundly impacted by many of her points, but was the most moved when she talked about the God given talents she has - it's a sin to not use the talents you have. That was all the motivation I needed to get off my butt and start training like I should.

David,

I appreciate that your view is inclusive and you are willing to engage other faiths. I also respect your faith, and faith in general.

But with all due respect, doesn't Christianity teach that those that do not believe in forgiveness of their sins ONLY through Jesus Christ are damned? This is my, and many people's fundamental problem. I have not heard or read any interpretation of New Testament scripture that does not fundamentally argue that 'salvation' can come only through Christ and the rest are cast off.

Many Christians I know struggle with this notion and some ultimately leave the Church because they can't accept that the good Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and seculuar humanists of the world are doomed to Hell, or at least Purgatory.

I gather from what you've written that you don't feel this way, and I applaud that. But, then, is it absolutely fair to say you're a Christian if you don't agree with one of, if not the most, fundamental tenets of the religion?

I don't mean to attack your faith. I'm just very curious about how you and the other Christians on the board resolve your belief system?

First of all, I am a Christian. I have been one for most of my life, and my faith has become even stronger over the last couple of years. That being said, I can't help but wonder if too much is being made of this Triathlon\Christianity balance.

Christianity is the foundation of who I am and as such gives me bedrock on which to build. On that bedrock, I have added husband, father, friend, sibling, son, co-worker, manager, triathlete, etc.. In other words, Christianity provides perspective\direction\a framework for all of these elements and for all of my interactions with others. It's never been a question of either\or for me. My relationship with God permeates all areas of my life.

Do I set aside time to go to church, to pray, to study the Bible. Sure, I do. I also set aside time to eat, sleep, work, play with my son, etc.. IMO, praying more than the next guy or more than I did last week doesn't necessarily make me a better Christian. Having an ongoing dialog with God and continually attempting to live by His ideals is what will make me a better Christian.

Best,

Litherland

Who would have thought that I'd stumble onto this website with such a question? I very much share your struggle, Steve. For 2003, I set very simple goals in each of four main categories: spiritual, family, work, and triathlon. I qualified my triathlon goals by prioritizing them last and by committing to myself (and to those to whom I am accountable) that if it interfered with my other goals, my triathlon goals would have to give.

On the one hand, in the case of work and family, I've found that my triathlon goals actually enhance my motivation. Even though my preference would be to train, I know that I can't have the prize (triathlon) if I don't put in the time to honor and love my wife, spend time with my family and build up my practice. So, out of an abundance of caution that my IM obsessions will harm my marriage (or that my wife will associate "triathlon" with emotionally or physically "absent husband"), I'm actually becoming a more attentive and available husband.

I'm not having the same success with my spiritual life. I, too, find that where my treasure is, there my heart is also. I find myself distracted during my morning quiet times. One minute, I'm praying, the next minute I my mind is already out on the road. Its not that I can't pray while I run or meditate in the pool. I'm on board with that. Its more my conviction that its a to not let my IM obsessions satisfy my God-given desires instead of allowing God to satisfy them, alone. I'm not saying that triathlon is bad. Its not. Our bodies are the temple of God and all that. But I agree with some of the other posters here that its easy to let the sport become and idol.

I don't have any answers, but I do share your question...

Fun triathlon: www.trijesus.com great Tee shirts, Held on a Saturday. Lots of fun!!!!!!!!!

I have thought a lot about this too, especially now that my wife and I have a new baby, and the summer race season is on the way.

I think it's possible to enjoy (indulge in) things -- even "good" things -- to a damaging degree, to ourselves and our relationships.

I think that anything in our lives can be given more priority than it deserves, and when this happens, it can knock us off balance in our walk with God in Christ.

(Obviously it's a bit different for age-groupers who have the obligation to work triathon into the rest of their "real" life, vs. pros who make a living at it. )

The Christian life consists of a continual "washing of water by the Word" (reading and knowing the Bible), and "abiding in Christ" through prayer and a continual, purposeful alignment of my life with God's will as revealed in the Bible. This is a foundation upon which our life choices are made, pain and trouble are endured, and life's blessings are enjoyed.

In that light, triathlon is a double-edged sword --because it heps us learn and practice "good" things like being healthy, self-discipline, perseverance, following rules and respecting people, and encouraging others.

But it can also give rise to a certain narcissim -- an unhealthy wordview that is too "self focused" -- sleep, train, work, buy, train, sleep, buy, train, buy, buy ... which can take its toll on church and family life, work, etc. (I said "can," not necessarily "does.")

But the same can be said of any hobby or interest -- including full time minstry. (We've all heard of the "preacher's kid" syndrome).

So it's a matter of first and foremost realizing that you are a new creation in Christ -- "the old has gone, the new has come" -- and never taking for granted our relationship with the Lord who has saved us, and the grace His gives us each day, just to wake up in the morning.

Jesus said, "What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?"

-bub

Maybe I can sum up a few thoughts on this (oh so) dangerous of a subject matter...It seems a few posters have separated the difference between church and religion. Far be that I would disagree - since, by virtue of a belief system there will always be differences. And, it is this difference that makes humans special. Unfortunately, it is this difference that sometimes makes it so detrimental. An ironic condition only reflected by different churches and different religious beliefs. IMHO, it is how we accept these differences that truly reflect our values. It's not how we project our values and beliefs toward others that determines our "rightiousness".

I once read a philosopher (whom's name escapes me) who said, "religions is but example of man's inability to control his own imagination." If so, (and, I'm not saying he is necessarily correct) then extreme sports (such as triathon's) must be an example of man's (and women's) inability to accept his own physical limitations. How these two are interwoven can be summed up in one word - faith. Faith in our physical abilities and Faith in our personal beliefs help determine the outcome of a limits.

If Christianity is that faith you find which supports your endeavors so be it... If it's faith in some other belief, then there is plenty of room for that as well. The bottom line is that belief in yourself can go a long way with faith and support. Mental aspects of sports (via religion or church) are as fundamental as the physical aspects.

Whew... that was more words than I thought I'd say about this subject. Oh and BTW, ... did you know (as a 6 yr. old) it's not as easy as you may think to try and out run a Nun (Habit and all). Yep, should have tough it out in catacysm(sp?). But, Nooo... I was going make a break for it... got about 25 yds. and was snatch by what I remember to be a pretty old Nun. Later, I was snatch by my dad... and, let's just say, the rest was paddling history. Needless to say, I couldn't run fast as a 6 yr. old and some 40 ys. later ...I still couldn't out run a Nun in a full-length Habit (sp?). I guess somethings never change.

FWIW Joe Moya

Steve (SByer) -

I have a couple of thoughts for you...

First, I don't understand why you insist on separating your "walk with God" and triathlon training. They are one-in-the-same. If you're a Christian, then everything you do is "Christian", or part of your "walk with God". If God is in your life, there is nothing you can do that is not with God.

Let me try to put it another way. What does the Bible mean when it says to "pray constantly"? Does that mean that we should bow our heads and close our eyes all the time? Of course not. It means that everything we do, even triathlon training, should be a prayer to God. Everything we do is in concert with God for His glory.

Second thought... If God is our Father, and we are his children, that's a good clue as to how our relationship with God works. Think about your biological father. When you were a kid, did your Dad want you to be at home all day, hanging out with him all the time? No. He wanted you have some fun, explore the world, learn about life, find your passion. I believe the same holds true for our heavenly Father. It gives God great joy to see His kids out in His world, enjoying and exploring everything that He has created. So for heaven's sake (literally), enjoy your triathlon training and quit feeling so guilty. We have a God of love and joy, not fear and wrath.

I want to say thanks to all of you. It so far has been very insightful, and alot of people have affirmed conclusions that I have made on my own, so that is reassuring.

Bru, with regard to your post, I have trouble with a few things you said.

"If you're a Christian, then everything you do is "Christian", or part of your "walk with God". If God is in your life, there is nothing you can do that is not with God."
If I sin, any sin, it is not christian and not part of my walk with God. For instance, if I kill someone in cold blood, is that a christian act, and part of my walk? NO, a sin takes you away from God. If triathlon becomes to much of an obsession, where it consumes my thought, it can be considered idolatry (sp?, something previosly mentioned), which is a sin, which agains takes me away from my Walk. That distracts me from my relationship with HIM, which should be the main focus of any christian.

But in the second paragraph, you say "It means that everything we do...should be a prayer to God." THAT I AGREE WITH. The key word is should, which doesnt always happen. If everything I do was in concert with Him, that makes me Jesus (perfect). Which I am not, but something I continually strive for, but will never achieve. Hence my walk goes on...

Just to clarify too, I dont fear God or his wrath at all, nor guilt, because I know Im already saved (I took that leap a long time ago. Are you Catholic by the way-I was?). I am simply trying to strengthen my relationship with Him, because that is what it is-A RELATIONSHIP (much like with a girlfriend or wife, as well as a father, best friend, mentor, etc., but magnified). When you're in love with somebody, that becomes your first priority, and thats where I should be with God AT ALL TIMES. But lets face it, certain things can distract and take away from that, and I simply ponder whether, AT TIMES, triathlon does for me. And I wonder how I can reconcile that issue when it happens.

ashayk,

That isn't exactly what I said, but I do believe in tolerance. The answer is that i just don't know! Nor does anyone else, for sure, I think, until they are "there." I do know of only one sure way. Make sense? Have you read my blurb in the "alison" thread - I think it was #59. I'm not sure if it is proper protocol to repost the same thing in a different thread.

Best Wishes,

---

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

to christianity are sent to Limbo the first circle of hell............a little Dante anyone?

"I really believe that the Pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians, ... the ACLU, People For the American Way - all of them who have tried to secularize America - I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this [terrorist attack] happen." Jerry Falwell, 700 Club, 2001-SEP-13.

Between these two lunatics, "Christians" killing doctors, and the southern baptist convention looking to make Jews for Jesus in Chicago, is peoples skeptism of organized religion and Christians in particular any surprise?

I understand people need to stand by their beliefs but is this the kind of Christian Tolerance that you expect from leaders of organised religion? and is it any surprise why people have moved away from organised religion when it is run by zealots that say things like this?

"is it any surprise why people have moved away from organised religion when it is run by zealots that say things like this?"

You are absolutely right, Andrew. It is NO surprise when people turn away from that kind of message. He is attacking PEOPLE instead of IDEAS, and that is what comes across (rightly so) as "holier-than-thou". Rather than a "love the sinner, hate the sin" attitude, that quote could be characterized as "hate the sinner".

All I can say is what I said in the other thread: Man is sinful, and even men who are Christians fall short. But God's message doesn't change. He (God) didn't say or do these things, men did.

---

Dave in WI
-----------------------------------------------------
"What you once were isn't what you want to be anymore" - Wilco