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Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii.
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So I was running along this morning and I was thinkin...

Thinking, damn, why did I have to visit relativies with a POS computer last weekend so I couldn't see the Kona video...

Then I was thinking about the stagger rule. One of the complaints I heard was that in a crosswind the stagger sets up nicely for drafting, alah, echelon. Eh? If the wind is blowing from the right, why wouldn't the lead rider ride far left? Forcing everyone behind to ride to the right of the rider in front and really killing the draft. Did this happen? Doesn't it work? Like I said I didn't see any video.


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Justin in Austin, get it? :)

Cool races:
- Redman
- Desoto American Triple T
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [Justin on LI] [ In reply to ]
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Two thoughts- 1) I don't believe that the stagger rule overrides the blocking rule. I would assume that the lead rider is still obligated to ride to the right unless passing, so he/she wouldn't be able to stay to the left to prevent drafting (though I'm not a USAT official, so that's just speculation on my part). 2) It didn't really matter this year at Kona, as the conditions that day were pretty much windless and hot, so we didn't get a chance to see that strategy play out.
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [jkatsoudas] [ In reply to ]
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no, the leader is free to ride wherever he/she pleases. those behind have to adjust accordingly. furthermore, you can ride right next to someone as long as you are 2m to the side. the pack i saw coming back down from hawi was ridiculous. i think there needs to be some rethinking with this rule.

brent
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [brentl] [ In reply to ]
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glad you say that Brent...Olaf said the same, most good bikers were not happy at all with this rule...
there is a reason why 20 guys got off the bike together this year...

I was thinking that if the rule is maintained at IM Florida for the pros I will ask the following:
"so if I understand, If I am 40m behind someone but on the same lane, I will get a penalty despite the fact that there is no draft this far, whereas if I am 2m back and 2m on the side behind someone, then I will not get a penalty, despite getting obvious benefits...am I correct Charlie?"

that's BS. that's a first step towards draft legal Ironman.
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think the stagger rule worked too well either. My understanding is that it was more for the pro women than the pro men. It allows the pro women to happily ride on the left side of the road next to the AG men they are all blowing by. Of course, they did a horrible job informing the AGer's of this so many an AG 'stud' was yelling at the pro women for blocking. It was very confusing on the road. The pro women also ended up riding very close to and right behind each other as they worked their way through the AG men.
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Francois, i will be in florida too. Since i don´t want to pick up a penalty can you or someone give me a link to the rule explanation?

Thanks

Sergio Marques

=====================================
S�rgio Marques
When it hurts is when it feels good ;-)
Sergio-Marques.com
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [sergio] [ In reply to ]
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ok, the rule is only if you race pro.

in this case, it does not matter how far back you are behind someone, but you must be at least 2m on the side. of the rider preceding you.

if you are an AG, the rule is still 7m back...however, 1m will do at IMF :-)
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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But why didn't it work, if their were officials and no one was violating the rule.

Seems you'd have someone leading, someone to their side, maybe another (not sure how wide the roads are, but it looks like single lane each way). So that's 3 guys, then wouldn't the next 3 have to be way the hell back? It seems to me there would be no way to follow close behind w/o being directly behind one of the 3. How do you pass?


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Justin in Austin, get it? :)

Cool races:
- Redman
- Desoto American Triple T
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [Justin on LI] [ In reply to ]
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the rule says you have to be 2m behind the rider immediately in front of you...
that leaves a lot of room for drafting...
the problem that was reported at Kona too, is that you need to move your position all the time, someone goes at the front and then the whole group has to move to respect that 2m on the side rule...
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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just really short pulls on the front? Drop back 2m get 2m to the right or left depending on the wind wait for your turn to pull again?
Last edited by: Stewart: Oct 24, 03 13:51
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [Stewart] [ In reply to ]
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looks like a good recipe for a team time trial...isn't it!
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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I still don't understand how this contributes to a group drafting, if everyone is 3 feet to the right or left of the person in front of them. If you have 3 riders, rider 1 and rider 3 are seperated by 12 feet (while there may be some advantage of being 12 feet as opposed to 20 feet behind the person in front of you, I can't imagine that it's very noticeable), and rider 2 is 3 feet to the right or left of the others. I guess I'd have to see it to fully understand it. I don't necessarily see a pack forming as proof that there was drafting, as this type of rule definitely brings the riders into a smaller area, as they can expand laterally. Could it just be that it looked different than normal, and also that it was easier for the riders to stay together not because they were drafting, but because they were better able to sense slight changes in pace and match those by being in closer proximity.

One question I have though is whether or not the splits were abnormally fast as compared to previous years, as this would add hard data to the drafting argument. Especially the run times.

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"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."
Last edited by: Jack in Mi: Oct 24, 03 15:07
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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whine, whine, whine, whine, whine, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch...i can't take this anymore. are you guys serious? you're worried about the advantage someone may get in crosswinds from riding 2m away in echelon form? are you expecting hurricane force crosswinds?! the advantage one might be able to squeeze out of the stagger rule is definitely less that what you were able to get out of the old rule by drafting all you wanted as long as you passed within 15s. under the old rule, if there was a group, then everyone would keep passing and dropping back in this fashion and hence get their advantage. is there some advantage to be had here as well? sure, but it's about as much as the advantage tim deboom got from that funky front brake that everyone's so excited about...or peter reid's discontinued profile brake levers...essentially zero! i'll be at IMFLA and i'll be observing the pro stagger rule (as i have in countless other races in the US) and while it may not be perfect, it will work just fine (and is definitely better than the previous option, particularly in situations where AGers, who don't have to drop back nearly as far, may be mixed in). if other people are "using" the stagger rule to their advantage, it won't bother me one bit because i have well over 8 hrs of work to do that day and if i do it to the best of my ability, the 20s they might gain from leveraging the stagger rule won't make any difference at all. but if you guys want to waste all this energy worrying about the stagger rule, then so be it...just makes you more tired than me.

francois, if you want to fight the pro stagger rule, be my guest. but please do it by contacting USAT between races, not by hounding the officials at races. arguing with charlie at the meeting will only serve to make the already endlessly long and stupid pro meetings even longer and more tedious. certainly he would never change the rule at the pro meeting...i doubt he could do so even if he wanted to.
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [kp] [ In reply to ]
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kp,

first this was a joke. I know it is pointless to argue with Charlie who is certainly not the one who has the authority to change this.
second I never hound at races officials, or volunteers (at drafters occasionally).
third, yes 2m in echelon form there is a lot of draft.
You don't need hurricane, gale force winds...just a bit of cross wind will do, you will save quite a bit of energy by sitting 2m on the side and say 2m back...

there is a reason why the draft box in cycling is 20mx5m.

if you think there is no advantage when sitting 2m back and 2m on the side, then you do not know much about cycling I am afraid...
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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> there is a reason why the draft box in cycling is 20mx5m.

and there's a reason that cyclists who are well within that box for quite a long time still receive no or only a couple of seconds penalty.

> if you think there is no advantage when sitting 2m back and 2m on the side, then you do not know much about cycling I am afraid...

haha. you should be afraid. afraid that you're wasting all your time worrying about things that just don't matter. but it's a free world...worry as you wish. i'm content now that i've voiced my disagreement. see you in florida. have a good race.
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [kp] [ In reply to ]
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I am not afraid of the rule...if it's the rule. so be it.

I hope enough pros will voice their disagreement so it is removed.

now if you are a race marshall, that's a bummer...to realize that you are working to prevent drafting, should know full well that this thing is just disguised drafting and think that it's fair...

I hope I won't see you. I'd rather ride with noone in front, noone at the back just somewhere in the middle but know I do the ride.
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois
little history of pro rules [as learned in the Referee recerticfication clinics]
The Stagger rule was drawn up by the Pro Rules committee some years back and guess what the committee members were pro racers. As a matter of fact they drew up all the pro rules. The Pros wrote them and voted them in. If you want the rules changed then you Pros need to get together on the pro rules committee write up the changes and get the other pros to agree to them then submit the changes to USAT.

Eric

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"on your Left"
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [kp] [ In reply to ]
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kp, just noticed that your post is the longest and you've even repeated some words several times - perhaps don't waste your time. The others seem to be contributing some well thought out problems with the new ruling.
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
now if you are a race marshall, that's a bummer...to realize that you are working to prevent drafting, should know full well that this thing is just disguised drafting and think that it's fair...


nope. a fellow pro...who knows from experience that the stagger rule is better than the old draft rule.

"disguised drafting"...you're hillarious...i thought i was overly opinionated...
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [eric] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Eric.

I am aware of this. However, who were the pros who voted for this? current pros?
I talked with Olaf Sabatschus and many others in Germany, as well as in France and Australia.
Everyone seems against it and nearly always confused about its application.

The problem here is that Hawaii is world championship for IM distance. And the rules are different than in all non IMNA races. I thought a sport was supposed to show some level of homogeneity as far as rules are concerned.

The comments after race from all the Euro pros seem to be strongly against this new rule. In any case, it was decided only in the US.

I think it is great that USAT and the WTC are trying to fix the drafting problem and what pro women have to go through during the race with AG.

IM Florida 2 years ago had a pro wave starting 30' before. In this case, no problem for the women and the men, we can even allow for a 20mx3m box....

Roth has been doing the same since 1994 I believe (of course the effects were negated by the number of motorbikes around the leaders).
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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hey, we agree on something...IMFLA 2001 was definitely the best scenerio tried thus far (at least for pros). i heard that plan was scrapped, though, due to difficulties getting the timing boards reset between the pros and the first amateurs...which sounds like a lame excuse to me. start the pros an hour early...if the top amateurs can't figure out how to subtract an hour from their time, they deserve not to know it. heck, just set the time to the amateur start...i can't imagine any pros would complain about not having the timing board show their current and correct time.

> The problem here is that Hawaii is world championship for IM distance. And the rules are different than in all non IMNA races.

i don't know about all IMNA races, but i know for sure that IM CDA, IM USA, and IM MOO all used the stagger rule this year.

> In any case, it was decided only in the US.

true enough. of course, hawaii is a US race. that said, i think the ETU/ITU rule against removing your helmet before you've racked your bike (so it prevents you from taking off your helmet once off the bike but still running through transition) is retarded as well...but i still have to obey in ETU/ITU events and i didn't complain the first time i screwed it up and got a penalty...i should have known the rule even if it doesn't apply in most races i do. in this case, there's certainly no reason to be confused about the rule's application as it was specifically addressed and well-discussed prior to the race.
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [kp] [ In reply to ]
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actually on courses like CDA, MOO and LP that are hilly enough I would understand why the stagger rule would be an ok scenario (so you don't have to hammer a hill to pass in less than 15'' or to drop back and lose momentum)...
on a flat course, this will not do too good.

glad to see we agree on one point though...
indeed, I thought a time less 1h or even less 30' is not too hard to figure out...
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]Thanks Eric.

I am aware of this. However, who were the pros who voted for this? current pros?
I talked with Olaf Sabatschus and many others in Germany, as well as in France and Australia.
Everyone seems against it and nearly always confused about its application.

The problem here is that Hawaii is world championship for IM distance. And the rules are different than in all non IMNA races. I thought a sport was supposed to show some level of homogeneity as far as rules are concerned.

The comments after race from all the Euro pros seem to be strongly against this new rule. In any case, it was decided only in the US.

I think it is great that USAT and the WTC are trying to fix the drafting problem and what pro women have to go through during the race with AG.

IM Florida 2 years ago had a pro wave starting 30' before. In this case, no problem for the women and the men, we can even allow for a 20mx3m box....

Roth has been doing the same since 1994 I believe (of course the effects were negated by the number of motorbikes around the leaders).[/reply]

Francois
the Stagger rule has been in place for many years I could not tell you who was involved [before my time in triathlon] but it is in place for all USAT Pro races that have $5000 or larger purses and have an "elete" field [ie tracked as pro men/women seperate form the amateurs]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"on your Left"
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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<<will save quite a bit of energy by sitting 2m on the side and say 2m back... >>

Hello all, I've just returned from officiating IMH and want to make a couple of points. In working to comply with the stagger, some pros forgot to remain 10 meters back. To summarize, the rider you stagger off is not the one you would be in line to draft off. The concentration required, for the duration of a 112 mile bike leg, is enormous! Also, forgotten in the hoopla and sometimes overlooked, is the fact that the stagger is infinite. There can be confusion because the draft zone is 10 meters long and the stagger is, by rule, infinite.

Also, just to chime in here, as an official who spent Friday afternoon at bike check-in, WTC could have and maybe should have done a more thorough job of providing rules information to the foreign competitors. Some translations in writing or verbally may have made a huge difference in the comprehension of this major change. I personally spent a significant portion of the afternoon in conversation with pro athletes clarifying and explaining the rules. This is the first year that the USAT pro rules were being used--WTC had applied for and been granted a rules exemption for the previous IMH races.

That said, a friend of mine did a quick stat analysis and it turns out that only 3 of the top 20 males were US pros. Doesn't appear, statistacally, that this rule had a significant effect on the overall results. As for the women, Kraft incurred a penalty for drafting, not a stagger violation--again, hard to argue that this change had a major---repeat---major impact on the race results.
Aloha,
Kathy
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Re: Question about the stagger rule in Hawaii. [Kathy M.] [ In reply to ]
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As an age-group female who raced Hawaii this year, I spent a good portion of the bike puzzled over the behavior of some of the pros. I passed several female and one male pro who rode right next to the double yellows. They forced all to pass on their right. Curiously, the marshalls seemed to blind to their position. More frustrating, I saw a marshall pass by one of these pros by only to penalize an age-grouper who seemed to be blocking. Though the sidewinds were light this year, the pros definately benefitted by not having to deal with drop-back/drafting regulations. From what I saw -- these pros did not have to follow the blocking regulations and by default, as no-one else was riding the double yellows, did not have to deal with the drafting or the antics of the male agegroupers. I am anti-drafting, but from what I saw you might as well make the pro race draft legal. I appreciate the information on this listserv as I have raced Hawaii twice before and never seen this behavior.
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