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Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals
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Does anyone have information on the aero difference between Powertap P1 pedals compared to reportedly aero pedals such as the Look Blade Aero or the Speedplay Zero Aero?

All I can find is that a similar set up to the Speedplay Zero Aero, with a View Speed shoe modification would, according to view-speed.com, save about 40 seconds in an hour of 20mph riding (compared to what pedal and what yaw angles, View Speed doesn't specify).

So based on this, I am assuming that there would be at least 40 second penalty, per hour penalty if one uses the Powertap P1 pedals over something like the Speedplay Zero Aero pedals.

Thoughts?
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [NYSLIM] [ In reply to ]
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AeroCoach tested this last year.
https://m.facebook.com/...p;id=408619855839326

Considering the increased stack height on the P1, you could be close to a double digit loss.
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [NYSLIM] [ In reply to ]
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NYSLIM wrote:
Does anyone have information on the aero difference between Powertap P1 pedals compared to reportedly aero pedals such as the Look Blade Aero or the Speedplay Zero Aero?

All I can find is that a similar set up to the Speedplay Zero Aero, with a View Speed shoe modification would, according to view-speed.com, save about 40 seconds in an hour of 20mph riding (compared to what pedal and what yaw angles, View Speed doesn't specify).

So based on this, I am assuming that there would be at least 40 second penalty, per hour penalty if one uses the Powertap P1 pedals over something like the Speedplay Zero Aero pedals.

Thoughts?

Virtually impossible to test one pedal system vs another with a rider (or without, for that matter), but we have some preliminary results for the Speedplays which indicate a 4 watt savings from the Zero to the Zero Aero. We'll test again with another rider the first week of December to confirm our initial results, but we've been able to repeat the data with one test rider.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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I would love to see you also add some more variables. Different type of shoes and their interaction with the pedals. Say, different top end road shoes, mtb shoes (aka walkable ones). Different riders with varying shoe sizes to see how much that makes a difference with the same pedals. A person with a size say, 39 shoe versus a 50+ (I would think) could change the airflow ever so slightly across the pedal to a measurable amount if your dealing in single digit watts (or maybe tenths?). Throw some narrow width, standard width, wide shoes for good measure too while you're at it.

Would like to see these to reduce any uncertainty factors. That would be on my wishlist to get tested if I was conducting the testing though and had the funds to cover it.
Last edited by: loxx0050: Nov 16, 16 11:28
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [loxx0050] [ In reply to ]
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loxx0050 wrote:
I would love to see you also add some more variables. Different type of shoes and their interaction with the pedals. Say, different top end road shoes, mtb shoes (aka walkable ones). Different riders with varying shoe sizes to see how much that makes a difference with the same pedals. A person with a size say, 39 shoe versus a 50+ (I would think) could change the airflow ever so slightly across the pedal to a measurable amount if your dealing in single digit watts (or maybe tenths?). Throw some narrow width, standard width, wide shoes for good measure too while you're at it.

Would like to see these to reduce any uncertainty factors. That would be on my wishlist to get tested if I was conducting the testing though and had the funds to cover it.

Yeah, that's way more work than I'm willing to do unless someone wants to spend a bunch of money funding it. You need at least two riders with multiple runs for each variable. The reason testing Speedplays works is you can pretty much guarantee foot position remains the same as you switch pedals and cleats. The shoes stay the same for consistency. Not just the make/model of shoes, but the shoes themselves are not changed.

I did test a Look Keo vs a Carbon Aero once. No real difference, but that was one test with one rider, which is really not a test at all.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [NYSLIM] [ In reply to ]
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Because of the increased stack height combined with the size and shape of the pedal the p1s versus regular speedplay zeros was...somewhere between 10 and 20w.
No joke.
Most of that was the approximately 1cm greater stack height.
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [TriByran] [ In reply to ]
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This may be a silly question - but what would the difference of 1cm of pedal height - and 1 cm of calf height be?

I.e. Are you saying that 1cm extra calf height = 10/20 watts penalty?
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [plumber250] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, in my case raising the saddle and the bars by 1cm gave me an over 10w penalty.
Could be airflow, could be simply height off the ground. But that's what it came out as!
So I train with PowerTaps and go naked for races!
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [TriByran] [ In reply to ]
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TriByran wrote:
Yes, in my case raising the saddle and the bars by 1cm gave me an over 10w penalty.
Could be airflow, could be simply height off the ground. But that's what it came out as!
So I train with PowerTaps and go naked for races!

How did you test this? Field test? Not doubting it, but I am curious how you got your number.

To the OP you could be like TriBryan and it end up being ~40 sec/40k. Or it could be absolutely nothing at all. It really depends on how you pedal the bike and how sensitive you are to changes in position. We've seen people move up and down 2cm from base line and not change their drag. Others we've seen people change amounts similar to what TriBryan experienced off of 1-2cm.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [TriByran] [ In reply to ]
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Where are you getting an increased 1cm of stack height from? The Speedplay website quotes stack as either 8.5mm (4 hole mounting) or 11.5mm (3 hole mounting) vs Powertap's website claiming 14mm for the P1's. This would suggest the increase in stack height would be between 5.5mm and 2.5mm. Are the figures on one of the websites incorrect, or am I misreading somewhere?
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [TriByran] [ In reply to ]
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TriByran wrote:
Because of the increased stack height combined with the size and shape of the pedal the p1s versus regular speedplay zeros was...somewhere between 10 and 20w.
No joke.
Most of that was the approximately 1cm greater stack height.

10-20w sustained from simply going from speedplay zero to P1s? To put that in perspective that would be 2 (10w) to 4 (20w) minutes on a typical 70.3 course. You sure about that?
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [rmt] [ In reply to ]
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Yes I read that too, that's why I bought them, but they are wrong!
The stack is higher than my keos, because the cleats are taller, that's why the keo cleats don't quite work because often the rear mechanism of the PowerTap pedals will foul the shoe, so not fully engage, depending on the curve of the base.

I have my speedplays bolted directly on and got a stack of 8mm for them and 17.8 for the PowerTap.

Not sure where they got 14 from!
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [NormanShield] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, but as I said there are other factors at play.
I think the pedals themselves cost around 5w.
I then lost as least double that again for the increase in stack.
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [rmt] [ In reply to ]
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I have the P1 pedals. Basically the stack height speedplay reports is the pedal plus the cleat. The stack that PT reports is just the pedal, then you have to add the cleats. I have a 3 hole mount and had to raise my saddle 7.5mm to compensate. Speedplay is the lowest stack height pedal out there. If you are come a look or shimano pedal you'll have to raise you seat much less.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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2 questions:

1. If you got the P1's from say Look Keos, and raise your saddle by 6-7mm, but leave the front nd the same, making more drop, does that mitigate the aero penalty? Seems like it would, and maybe a good way to train then race on regular pedals. I train with power and race without anyway.

2. In your opinion is there measurable aero savings form going from keos to speedplay?

Thanks Heath.
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [TriByran] [ In reply to ]
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I use P1 pedals. So basically I should consider getting a different powermeter with the speedplay pedals to save 2-4 mins in a 70.3?
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [endurancealex1] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, or ditch it entirely. Don’t understand why people use them in races!
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [TriByran] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Byran, do you pedal toe down? Or relatively flat? I ask as I have a significant toe down and wondering if the gains would be minimized due to the fact that my pedal is in dirty air...

TriByran wrote:
Yes, but as I said there are other factors at play.
I think the pedals themselves cost around 5w.
I then lost as least double that again for the increase in stack.
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]
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Yes I think it makes a big difference.
Even keeping the foot flat can make a difference, but yes a flat foot plus speed play aero is a big jump over the p1, both for me and others.
Less so if you pedal toe down although the increase in stack seems to cost everyone about 5w
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [TriByran] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the info, saved me bothering to switch from spd Shimano cleat. Spend that money an an omega front brake instead
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [TriByran] [ In reply to ]
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I have a hard time understanding how pedal stack would make such a big aero penalty.

Rider aero penalty is the same just moved higher up.

Bike frontal area is slightly larger with pedal stack + exposed seat post and arm pad pedestal.

In the complete rider + bike system how much power is needed for bike CdA and how much is needed for rider CdA? Wouldn’t 10-20W from pedals equal to around 30-40% of total bike CdA? Sounds a bit high.

Personal best:
Ironman 9:22:02
Ironman 70.3 4:20:00
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [teinvall] [ In reply to ]
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5w not 20

1w per mm raised is surprising common.

No idea how it works but it’s true.

Shoes, pedal choices etc. Has saved me more watts than bike and wheels!
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [TriByran] [ In reply to ]
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How did you find those subtle aero savings? Windtunnel, velodrome, other?

Thanks
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [ejd_mil] [ In reply to ]
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ejd_mil wrote:
How did you find those subtle aero savings? Windtunnel, velodrome, other?

Thanks

Interested as well
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Re: Question: Powertap P1 vs. aero pedals [endurancealex1] [ In reply to ]
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endurancealex1 wrote:
I use P1 pedals. So basically I should consider getting a different powermeter with the speedplay pedals to save 2-4 mins in a 70.3?

I've tested the P1's vs pretty much every major pedal on the market on multiple occasions now, and they are a definite aero disadvantage, though overall results are significantly effected by foot angle. 5-7 watts is average vs the Speedplay Aero Zero, though I've seen 10+ watts on some athletes. Interestingly, most of my pedal testing has been in the wind tunnel, with some velodrome stuff mixed in. Great power meter, but they're slower. I'd be surprised if we don't see a re-design soon.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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