I'm a little surprised that there is not more discussion about this. The race was absolutely fantastic - a real race. McCormack has talked about how he wants to make ironman a *race*. And he did exactly that right here. A fantastic event for both men. Excited for Hawaii yet?

matt

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"When I cleaned up my diction, I had nothing left to say" -- Van Morrison

From the reports it sounds like t was indeed a great race and a great battle bewteen two of triathlons top athletes. It's too bad that there are not more races like this at the ironman distance. They seem to pop up every few years. However, it's more a by product of the race it self. There are so many variables that go into having a good race at the ironman distance that even if you are off by 1 or 2% that can turn into a huge lead for your competition and a bit of a sleeper for the people watching.

As for the lack of coverage, I would assume that this is a by product of the Roth race moving out from underneath the WTC umbrella and going it alone.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

what a great race!!!
I raced Roth when Luc set the world record and Hellriegel did sub 8h but was only 4th, what an exciting race and now this, awesome!

They did move out from underneath the WTC umbrella and that's a great thing too. Roth needed an exciting duel like this to keep a strong hold on the board of international longdistance triathlon.

The WTC and the various organizations that make-up races around the world, and make a lot of money with it, have too much of a monopole for my taste. There is a huge list of things I could add now what I don't like at Ironman-races these days but the most important is that a race needs it's own character. That's something that evolves with time, you can't create that on a new place just like that. What we see in the US, California, Utah, CDA... is artificial and It seems they follow the path of money.
The same happens in Europe with Roth, Frankfurt...

Let's hope that there will be more races like Roth in the future!

I very much agree with the sentiment that long distance triathlons shouldn't be focused around Hawaii. I disllike the pyamid money making scheme that is fostered by the WTC and the huge expense actually racing in Hawaii entails HOWEVER Roth needs to move the swim into the lake and have a mass start (I also want to see a limit of 1200 athletes for all mass start races due to drafting). The cliche is that one should go at ones own pace during an ironman but the mind can be just as much your friend as your enemy and if you're in the last wave then you're already out of 'contention' to start with. Nonetheless, the crowds in Roth and the surrounding villages were superb, the aid stations volunteers were the best, the bike and run course are excellent and knowing that I contributed to a 'just cause' made it all worth while.
SteveMc

Macca is also great for the sport, he has laid his intentions on the table and then goes out and delivers the good. Triathlon needs people like Macca, guys with a bit of a cocky attitude and very likeable. He does a great job of talking smack, but does so without disrepecting anyone.

IMH will be great if he can produce the goods... but to me IMH is like a good Derby or Grand National, there are potentially quite a few winners- it just depends on how the chips fall.

Weeman

I think we're on the same page but I disagree with the mass-start in Roth.
Allthough I also prefer mass-starts because I like ot know where I am in a race.
But I believe a race has to be build around the local environment and the channel in Roth gives the race a very special, unique athmosphere and that's exactly what races should have.
Could you imagine IM Lanzarote as a 3 loop out-and-back towards the flat section? Don't think so. It's hilly there so make it a hilly race! Or would you like to see Hawii changed to a loop course so that it's more spectator friendly.
Or how about taking Richter Pass out of IMCanada so that there are faster times for the pros?

My idea of a good race is...
-Pick a place with a unique environment.
-design a course that goes with that environment
-I would even consider sometimes to have slight deviations on the actual Ironman distances if the local environment is asking for it.
-establish a good race that is living from it's unique setting
-if it proofs to be a well attended and well organized race over the years,
give it some IMH slots

That's how it used to be but sadly this list is turned around:
-give it some IMH slots
-find a place that makes the best offer (financially)
-design a course to make the sponsors happy

I know that's a little exagerated but you get the picture

I don't know Roth but a mass start has got to be part of the game. I hate being beaten by the guy that wasn't seen. Leder wins by three seconds over the guy that finished two hours before! I want to see the guy pass me and look deep for a bit more. The how to organise a race, like most slow writing has got the location thing spot on. You need to pick a place that the Tri will be appreciated. I'm down with the different distances, after all where did 112 miles on the bike come from? OK we stole the 26.2 because "normal" people might understand that was a really long way but I'd rather have the course pick the distance than back to front. Money does talk and unless sponsors can see a return they will probably not cough up. Then who pays for the 38 feed stations? Without the stations people will probably not go. Without the advertising budget they will never know they could have gone. M

just to make it clear, the pros start first in Roth so Leder was the first over the line.

And you get to pick a time which you estimate what you will do and that puts you in the apropriate wave. If you overestimate you'll get your butt kicked but that's not the organizers fault.

But I do agree that I prefer Mass-start. But I've raced Roth and the swim in the channel with all the spectators aligned over the whole course makes for the best IM swim I ever experiensed, you might not like it but it sure is unique.

Now about the sponsor and money thing:

The best way I can put it is that it's total BS, you pay 375$ to sign up for an IM race in the US. That should be plenty to put aidstatiohs on that course on top of that they have hundreds or even thousands of volunteers, I'd like to see some of that book-keeping once!

The reason you pay $325 is because the organiser know it will fill. Demand is so high they are exempt from a few market forces. You try charging that in your first year & without slots or a big sponsor and see if it fills. Sure sure I was taking a extreme with the start, but I never want to be beaten by the guy behind me. If you really need it for the course stager the start, but like you I don't want it encouraged. The is a race that you run across Gozo (10 miles I think) Swim 3.8 to Malta and Cycle the 24 Malta allows. That is built for the course!

Now that's exactly my point!!!

But by having more races like Roth, which are not under the WTC umbrella but still fill and are competitive, exciting, good pros and everything that goes with it, might and I hope it will, change that. Maybe Ironman Florida won't fill at some point and people go and do the great floridian...I whish this will happen but it's only a dream.

I just did IMCDA, paid the full 375$ and then when I showed up at the registration they wanted 5Bugs for a neoprene band to put the time-chip around my ankle. Sure I had the option of taking the plastic half-inch thing that came for free!

This is just too much for me...

Ironman CDA is now $400 plus Active Fees.

Maybe it's just me, but I think that $395 for an M-Dot race is a bargin. I'm sure they are making a profit, but I hope they are because it increases the liklihood that I'm going to have more races in the future to choose from. Besides, I am not likely to do more than one, maybe two IM races per year and the entry fee is by far the smallest component of the money I will spend to go to them. I'm not rich, but I just did CDA too and I thought the experience was worth much more than $395.

I always hear people talk about the fact that all the food is donated and all the volunteers are free so they are making money hand over fist. I'm sure a lot of stuff is donated, but not everything. Besides, if you figure it out, 1,900 racers at $395 each is only $750K. Yes that's a lot of money, but I'll bet it goes pretty fast when you consider all the direct costs of planning for and running races, not to mention the fully absorbed costs which include all of the overheard to run the IMNA corporation; don't forget that race fees are their revenue, so they are paying for more than just the costs to put on the race that you're doing. I'll bet the margins aren't as fat as you all seem to think. Think about some of the following items and what the costs may be, this is far from an all inclusive list, and I'm not in the business but I'll bet these items alone account for a very big chunk of that $750K that we paid at CDA:

-Salaries for IMNA employees (including admin staff, etc.)

-I'll bet they also have to pay an accounting firm to audit their books every year.

-Travel expenses for IMNA employees to and from prospective and contracted race sites

-Rent on their office space

-Phones, computers and other equip in their office and on the road

-Shipping (or trucking) all the signs, timing mats, inflatable archways, generators, air compressors and equipment to race sites (I sometimes budget tradeshows for my company and shipping a 10X10 booth and a few computer monitors costs thousands of $$$ and that's nothing compared to what they must ship)

-Printing and shipping all of the literature/signs

-Developing, hosting and maintaining IMNA and the event websites

-Paying for security/police on the race course and at trans areas(sometimes you have to pay overtime)

-If you were at the CDA athlete meeting, you heard Graham F. said they bought bottled water for the run course rather than using tap water like they normally do. I'm sure that wasn't cheap, even if they got a great deal. I also don't believe that every piece of food at every transition area was donated. What about the cups? coolers? the thousands of bags of ice they were having delivered everywhere.

-What about the 700 pizzas, they ordered , so we could gorge at the end.

-How bout the car rentals, boat fuel, gas, etc. that they spent all year to survey the courses and plan the race? How bout the gas they spent and the boat rental for the full day to set up the swim course

I may have missed the boat on some of this stuff, I don't have an intimate knowledge of IMNA and I've never run a race but I do have to budget for one department of one small company and I've come to appreciate that most things are much more expensive than you think they should be and money goes faster than you think it will.

Just food for thought.

Barry K.

The answer to that is VERY simple!!!

Roth is one of the best organized event I've ever participated in and I've done 14 Ironman races over the years and many short-course events.

This year you had to put down 200$ to get into the race!
Again!!! 200$

that's roughly half of what you have to pay for CDA

How come?

There is no reason for that, none at all. If the guys in Roth can do it then the guys from Lake Placid can too.

Now don't tell me that things are cheaper in Germany, it's the other way around believe me it is!

Well Barry, I think you have missed the boat. Those costs you listed are common to all IM races everywhere, even higher in expensive Germany where the Roth entry price is roughly half that of an IM sanctioned race. That equates to an extra $200 per athlete profit.

Nor does the IM income end with race fees, they get a huge rake off from everything that's on sale in the village(including the obligatory photo extortion).

The value for money in an IM is the reward for the training you've done all that effort, the sense of acheivement. The exaltation you feel makes it easy to forget that despite your outlay you're not on the receiving end of any great largess.

forgott:

great floridian: 250$

schloss-triathlon-moritzburg: 130$

Ultramax Missouri: 250$


and the list goes on

And you get to pick a time which you estimate what you will do and that puts you in the apropriate wave. If you overestimate you'll get your butt kicked but that's not the organizers fault.


Last year Roth was age group waves.

I think they should do the swim in the nearby lake. I prefer mass starts. It's more encouraging to crap swimmers like me whose wave is one of the last. I get to pass more people. Most of the people who passed me at Roth were doing relays(last wave) and so the bike specialists really ripped past me.

Best reason in favor of a mass start however is ..............

........ if you want a finishing photo at Roth and you're not a pro, the finishing clock shows the wrong time.

that is an important point. As long as they are making a profit, it does ensure that we will have choices, and the possibilities of new IM events around the US.

I think it is a pure rip off with some of the prices that are being chaged at these events, especially the price for the accessories, clothing etc just because it has the event name embroidered on it. But let's face it, we do have choices, no one is twisting anyone's arm to attend these events and it is the law of supply and demand at it's best. They have a great product and they charge for it. These events sell out faster and faster each year so there is a captive audience. Until the IMNA events stop selling out they are not about to go through a deflationary period. Like I said, we have choices. BTW, I made the choice this year, I am doing an IMNA event.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

Ok Ok I surrender for the mass-start argument.

but not for the entry-fee, it makes my blood boil just thinking about it.

I'll do Ironman LP then Hawaii and that's it for me for the rest of my
triathlon time, no WTC race again ever!

How much do you pay for a Coke? it's only water an sugar. May be you don't drink Coke (me neither), but millions of people do because the trust the brand they know what they are getting whether they buy it in Atlanta, Rio or Paris, it's the same Coke.

I would argue on this. I was back in France recently and I think the taste was a bit different...
so is the taste in germany...maybe due to different legislation on what can be put in a drink...
but they taste different...of course, it's off topic...

Don't surrender. . . I also think that Roth should stick with the channel and wave starts. Swimming the channel in Roth is great for spectators and is a unique experience. I got a kick out of watching people walking along the banks as I swam. Plus, it is fast as balls--- You can't really go offline in a 50 yard wide channel.

Roth also has that amazing climb lined with thousands of spectators. I felt like I was in the Tour as I rode through lanes so crowded with spectators only one rider at a time could get through.

I think it is about perfect.

-Marc

3athlon.org reports (news agancy dpa) that Macca signed a contract with Quelle Challenge Roth to race there in 2004 and 2005.

Felix

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http://www.weilenmann.ch.vu

Not true. I'm from Roth and I also took part in the race in 2002. It was NOT an agegroup wave start. The group depended on your estimated finish time.

regards,

Frank

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I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain.

I haven't done any of the races that you mention, so I'll conceed that races can likely be accomplished with lower fees. However, since I haven't done those races, I can't say how they compare in quality or what the differences may have been or how many competetors that enter those races.

Perhaps I am paying a bit extra for the brand, but I still think that compared to many of the local duathlons & triathlons that I've paid $75-$100 for, that $395 is a pretty good deal for the difference in quality that I felt I received. I've done one IM and it's still a pretty novel thing for me. Maybe after I've done a few more, I'll care less about the "IM experience" and just want a race to attend but for now I'll happily shell out $400 for my single race per year and hope that IMNA does well enough to give me more venues to choose from.

BK