Oh, you mean like the PhD scientist with NASA I met yesterday that has been pulled over numerous times and forced to sit on a curb in the rain for no other reason than driving a car that the local police deemed that he shouldn't be driving? And even with proof of ownership still having the policemen tell him that there is no way he should have the car (and it was just a Jag, so not anything really special to begin with)? What is the reason behind that since he was within the law and acting "like a responsible human being" on each occasion.

Ah right, the fact that he is a black male certainly had nothing to do with that.

It is my feeling that you probably don't get it and/or your filter is so clouded that it would be hard to convince you otherwise, especially now that your mental barriers and fully engaged and it appears to me as coming across as closed to other thoughts. But if people don't try to change perceptions so that there actually CAN be a solution that we work toward, than what is the point??

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_____________________________________________
Rick, "Retired" hobbyist athlete
Trying to come back slowly from acute A-Fib

No but he used a choke hold, which as I said, I believe qualifies as "deadly force." You can use "deadly force" and not intend to kill someone. Its more a term of art that defines what cops can and can't do to restrain a person. Generally a cop can only use deadly force if the crime was a felony against a person or the person poses a high threat to others. Again, I'm a lawyer but not a criminal defense lawyer so the specifics are vague to me.

holy cow. no, the cop didn't intend to kill garner. NO ONE IS SAYING THAT. f'in christ. do you have any intelligence in you? people are stating he used excessive force which RESULTED in garners death.

spankings are not allowed in schools anymore. your child goes to school, does something wrong and the teacher spanks him (which is against the rules). do you then go tell your child they wouldn't have gotten spanked if they didn't break the rules? NO (well, unless you were my father. fyi, i was in catholic school and spanked by the nuns fml), you tell the school that the teacher used forced that was not allowed, resulting in your childs bruising (then you discipline your child for breaking the rules).

but nope, in garners case, it's all good, cus he's a black man. the reality is that IF he was not black, it would have played out differently. that's what racists like you don't understand. take that black man and make his skin white, the result IS different.




if you act like a responsible human being you should be fine 100% of the time, not 99%. if you're white, you only have to act responsible 50% of the time and you'll still be fine. if you're black you can act responsible 100% of the time and 50% of the time you won't be fine. THAT is the reason for BLM, THAT is the reason for outrage. how can you not see that, what world do you live in? sit back, take a breath and think about your upbringing. how much experience do you have with the ghetto? what do you know about growing up in an urban setting, what do you know about systemic oppression and institutionalized racism. these are not made up words, these are real life things that are going on everyday. you DON'T see it because you're white (presumably, since you didn't state anywhere on this thread). it's like saying people who have depression should stop crying and whining. just because you don't see it and you don't experience it doesn't mean they don't live with it everyday. white privilege, so awesome to have, yet so dangerous.




again, what you don't understand is that this has nothing to do about breaking the law. it has to do with the improper use of force against black men. in all those scenarios, if they were white, they would not be dead. how can you not see that? oh wait, you're a racist and haven't spent one day in non white america.

There be a lot of White Guilt in this thread.

Some of you may need therapy, maybe a therapist can help you get that your just pretending to understand the "struggle". I hope you realize that many, if not most of the BLM folks see you as the problem. They see your sympathetic tone as being just as racist as those your attacking.

I actually give them credit for being able to recognize, white, over-educated liberals as being what they are; phonies.

What if you obey the law and still get shot by police?

I love America and free speech and the right to protest - as long as you aren't violating someone else's rights in the process.

I wish groups like BLM would put their energy into an area that would actually save the most black lives - but I don't actually think that is their goal. Despite these tragic incidents (and there are multitudes more we don't hear about - including many more whites getting killed), the police are the single best defense against more blacks from being killed in the inner cities.

I'd rather see BLM marching in force in the streets of Chicago where innocent blacks are gunned down on the streets practically every day. No one cares. Not the media, not the mayor of Chicago, not the president. Where's the outcry?

it's always someone else's fault.

You are not being pulled over because the police officer is racist. They are probably stereotyping, and that is a product of previous encounters. If I was driving in a nice car out of a trailer park that is known to be a methamphetamine producer, I would expect to be pulled over and questioned. I would not argue, I would not resist arrest. If I did, I would expect to be beaten up. I choose not to put myself in that situation.

Would you pull over a nerdy white guy in the part of city with gang affiliations. Pure racism exist, no doubt. Both ways. I've been called cracker for just walking down the street, oh well, who cares.

Is racism prevalent in our police departments, no. If you hated people just because of their skin color would you want to work in a diverse occupation in a diverse city? There are several different 'color' police men that were involved in these particular circumstances.

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�There ought to be something very special about the boundary conditions of the universe, and what can be more special than that there is no boundary?�- Stephen Hawking

Black activists in my city have anti-violence protests within their own communities all the time, and ongoing anti-violence/good citizenship programs for youth and others. They're seldom reported on. Certainly not in right-wing media, which is constantly asking why black leaders don't denounce black-on-black violence. Which those leaders do, very very frequently.

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http://www.jt10000.com/

Just to clarify, even if you've done nothing with the Meth lab, even if you didn't even know the meth lab was in the trailer park, even though you have absolutely no reason to believe that you have violated any law whatsoever, you would _EXPECT_ to be pulled over?

Yea, that seems like a reasonable position ...

You are actually making my point. Why isn't it reported? BLM has attention right now so if they really had a goal to save black lives they would use it to really make a difference. And just FYI - the mainstream media is overwhelmingly liberal. :)

do you even know the definition of racism? i would argue that racism is not just prejudice, but the ability/power to do something about it.

you know why being called a cracker doesn't bother you? because those words don't mean anything. there is nothing the black community can do to the white man in this country. in a sense, those black men were probably prejudice, or just dipshits/assholes/low lives. or they were young and stupid. it doesn't bother you because you're in the majority. you live under a different set of rules, it's hard to see, but it's real.

so you're staying stereotypes are ok? should someone be pulled over just because they are black? what if you had a sick uncle that lived in the meth trailer park and you were pulled over, frisked, questioned every time you went to visit him? i mean fuck, why are you putting yourself in that situation?

my black friend through college/grad school was pulled over MULTIPLE times. it's called dwb. driving while black. he visited his gf weekly at wellesley mass (nice little rich predominately white town in mass). i can't count the times in 2 hands the times he was pulled over. but it's his fault for putting himself in that situation? for visiting his gf?

don't you have one ounce of decency in you? you feel that cops can pull this man over, for absolutely no reason whatsoever. they run his plates, clean sheet, they obviously check his records while they run his plates, perfectly clean sheet. yet they pull him over for questioning. this is wrong, how you can possibly justify this is asinine.



because there is a huge difference between black on black gang related deaths vs being murdered simply because you are black. gang members are killing each other because of turf wars which is a whole other can of worms. they are not being killed because of the color of their skin.

 


Intent is not the point....unncessary police force is.

He did not need to take garner down in that manner, nor did he need to use an illegal choke hold, nor did he need to keep the chokehold employed as Garner told him he couldn't breathe (he was pinned and his arms were behind his back...i.e. no longer a "threat").

What did the medical examiner say was Garner's cause of death?


(note, I am not referring to the use of the word "homicide" above, but the section emphasized. I fully understand how the word homicide was used in this context)

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Classic retort of those willing to submit to authoritarian rule.

Works great until you are on the wrong side of the equation and someone is pointing a gun at you.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

FTFY.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Fook it....if the cops shot you, you clearly did something "wrong". Especially if you are black.

Anyone ever wonder why the Death penalty is so disproportionately applied to African-American males?

Nah, probably not.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

honestly, a forum though a great place for debate, is also a terrible place for this type of debate. people are so disconnected. we look at forum names, not a face, not a real human being. we read words, whilst making up any voice we choose in our heads.

i honestly think that if some of these people were to meet with a minority, sit down and listen to the shit they have been through. see the agony in their eyes and voices they would have a SLIGHT change of heart, perhaps even empathize with them.

personally, i feel very fortunate to not be born black in this country. i'm still a minority in this country, but i sure am glad i am not black. i still remember the days in grammar school when children of all colors played together, no one knew any better. it always baffled me that racism/prejudice exists. as with all things, the most important thing is acknowledgement that it exists in you.

growing up in a predominantly ghetto and hispanic community my father (ultra conservative) would utter words like "damn spics" when a young hispanic male would drive by with his car lowered and music extremely loud while smoking a cig or a joint. as an adolescent i knew this was wrong, but you hear it enough times and you think it's appropriate behavior. my father is a good man, he has no hate towards anyone, but he says stupid shit like that (not anymore, that was 25 years ago, people age and realize they were stupid and wrong). what happened was that the word was ingrained in me. i still recall times in my early 20s when i would be in that same scenario as earlier described and in my head i heard myself thinking "damn spics". it was a terrible feeling, it totally grossed me out. i had no idea where it came from until i thought about it and reflected about my past. you're shaped by your surroundings and your community, it's no surprise that i had a slight negative bias against hispanics d/t living in a poor community with most of the crime being committed by hispanics. but it's also not right. just because SOME hispanics are causing crime (though that SOME is most in that particular community) doesn't mean that ALL hispanics are bad people.

i dare anyone here to find a minority, ask them about their life in america. you'll be surprised how different it is than yours regarding police, law, society.

bests,

john

An excellent post. The sad reality is that we are all racist, to some degree. I know I am....I will quickly resort to stereotypes in certain situations, etc. As you noted above, there have been times where I have uttered phrases, that once spoken, shocked and shamed me. I am not afraid to admit those things either....and therein lies the difference, IMO. I acknowledge those sentiments and do my best to not let them control or influence me.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

projecting much? you have no idea about my background or who I am. maany of my best friends are black. but you believe what you want to. try re-rading all my posts in this thread too before you start hurling insults.

I was responding to the assertion that cops in Garner's case used "lethal force". That implies intent. Cops are trained when to use lethal force and that usually entails shootinng to kill. This was not that.

You canot speculate what would have happened if Garner was white. Some of the arresting cops were black. People try to insert racism where there may be none. Again, don't resist arrest.

I've been arrested and spent a night in jail 3x. For being disrespectful by ignoring a cop saying something to me. Straight up, 'you're going to spend a night in jail to learn some manners.' according to the people with me.

I'm deaf.

Wow....I can't believe you actually typed that cliche.

As for your assertion that "lethal force" implies intent, no it doesn't. Lethal force is just that....the use of force which can bring about the death of an individual. A chokehold, which was employed against Garner, is "lethal force".

"Don't resist arrest".....maybe you should tell that to Amadou Diallo. Oh wait...you can't. He's dead.

And for those of you that made the claim that MLK had widespread, bi-racial support, please read the article below....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/...t-did-too/?tid=sm_fb

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Wow. Your attitude is certainly going to help solve the problem. Phonies? White guilt? You do understand that things will never really change unless those that have the "privilege" and "power" actually stand up and do something, right? Historically proven fact. :facepalm:

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_____________________________________________
Rick, "Retired" hobbyist athlete
Trying to come back slowly from acute A-Fib

you do realize that your black friends (whether they admit it to you or not) think negatively of you when you won't even consider the fact that if garner was white the outcome could have been different.

i don't know your background, but i do know that you list your bike shop in your profile that is in somerset county nj (you know, cus i wanted to know more about your background, since you said i knew nothing about it). so i thought, hmm, what kind of area is far hill/somerset county. so i checked out wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerset_County,_New_Jersey


low and behold, it's one of the wealthiest communities in the united states of america.


"Somerset County, as of the 2000 Census, was the seventh-wealthiest county in the United States by median household income at $76,933 (third in New Jersey behind Hunterdon County at $79,888 and Morris County at $77,340), fourth in median family income at $90,655 (second in New Jersey behind Hunterdon County at $91,050) and ranked seventh by per capita income at $37,970 (highest in New Jersey).[9] The Bureau of Economic Analysis ranked the county as having the 11th-highest per capita income of all 3,113 counties in the United States (and the highest in New Jersey) as of 2009.[10] In 2012, 49.8 percent of Somerset County residents were college graduates, the highest percentage in the state.[11]"

the black friends you associate with (assuming they are from the same county) probably are significantly less experienced with normal everyday black man racism. not that they don't experience it. ask them, i'm sure they'll tell you. now imagine they didn't live in one of the wealthiest counties in america.

ahh forget it, i should have left on a high note. lol