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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you very much for sharing that! That does look clean and battery charging would be a breeze! Will the new carbon extension be supplied with the aeria ultimate when it is available, or is that going to be an upgrade product only?
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [clamato] [ In reply to ]
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clamato wrote:
Thank you very much for sharing that! That does look clean and battery charging would be a breeze!

That's the aim. I figure that if it's easy then people are less likely to be caught out with flat batteries at races.

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Will the new carbon extension be supplied with the aeria ultimate when it is available, or is that going to be an upgrade product only?

Yes, the 2020 AU will have the new extension. We cut costs in some areas (like packaging, which is horribly expensive) to keep the overall cost similar despite upgrading to the extensions that weigh half what a standard carbon extension does (= expensive carbon required).

Speedtheory
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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Hi, will the PD Aeria system work on a Cervelo P2C circa 2010?
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [BayDad] [ In reply to ]
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BayDad wrote:
Hi, will the PD Aeria system work on a Cervelo P2C circa 2010?

It works on that bike.
I'd note that you don't need to go for the full system if you just want the bottle. Or at least you won't need to soon (might be a few more months before it hits shelves)
The last item in this article https://www.bikeradar.com/...profile-design-2020/ is a faceplate (only for the PD 1/seventeen stem) that takes the bottle.

Speedtheory
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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cyclenutnz wrote:
BayDad wrote:
Hi, will the PD Aeria system work on a Cervelo P2C circa 2010?

It works on that bike.
I'd note that you don't need to go for the full system if you just want the bottle. Or at least you won't need to soon (might be a few more months before it hits shelves)
The last item in this article https://www.bikeradar.com/...profile-design-2020/ is a faceplate (only for the PD 1/seventeen stem) that takes the bottle.
Oh cool. That’s awesome would work well. And I don’t mind waiting a few months. Thanks.
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [BayDad] [ In reply to ]
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All-

Just FYI, I received a notice from my LBS that certain Aeria Ultimate bars were voluntarily recalled. See below.

https://profile-design.com/...eria-ultimate-recall

Strava
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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I’ve seen this https://www.evolutioncycles.co.nz/Product/220300/rp?sa=6#

How is the base bar 2cm shorter? I’m trying to work out if these will work for me but with the 100mm stem.
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [BayDad] [ In reply to ]
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BayDad wrote:
I’ve seen this https://www.evolutioncycles.co.nz/Product/220300/rp?sa=6#

How is the base bar 2cm shorter? I’m trying to work out if these will work for me but with the 100mm stem.


The base bars are 2" shorter in length (reach) to accommodate hydraulic tt brake levers, which stick out further (roughly 2", duh!) than the typical cable brake levers, because of the space needed for the fluid reservoir.

Dura Ace TT Brake Lever, standard (cable)



Dura Ace Hydraulic TT brake lever:



"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Dec 23, 19 12:58
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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I don't see where the recall notice indicates anything about brake levers. My guess is that those long handles just put too much torque on the base bar causing it to brake in certain high-stress circumstances like going over a bump of some kind.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
VeloVetta is developing AERO cycling shoes with CFD and wind tunnel testing.
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Am I crazy or was there not an argument in this thread between a customer who's bars broke calling it a design flaw and PD disagreeing.... And now they are on recall.

Or was that a different bar? If I'm wrong I don't mean to spread bad info
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]
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Ryanppax wrote:
Am I crazy or was there not an argument in this thread between a customer who's bars broke calling it a design flaw and PD disagreeing.... And now they are on recall.

Or was that a different bar? If I'm wrong I don't mean to spread bad info

i frankly don't remember. in my experience, across products, product categories and brands, it's typical for a failure to occur, and for the "defense" by the brand to be that the product passed all the requisite tests. i can tell you from personal experience (as a manufacturer) that it's often hard to get a product to fail in the field the way it fails in the prescribed test.

i don't know, and i'm just speculating, but i *think* what might have happened here is that PD made a pursuit bar designed to be cut down to fit; a lot of people didn't cut it down to fit; you see images just above this post of hydraulic and electronic levers that add quite a bit of length, and when you add up all that distance from the curve that's a long lever.

what i understand is that the new PD bar - in addition to whatever changes might have been made - is shorter. in fact, i have that new bar getting shipped to me i think, for a photo essay on a cervelo tri bike. i'll measure the bar i'm getting, and take pics of it, post them on the front page, post them on this thread, and whatever i know you'll know.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]
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Ryanppax wrote:
Am I crazy or was there not an argument in this thread between a customer who's bars broke calling it a design flaw and PD disagreeing.... And now they are on recall.

Or was that a different bar? If I'm wrong I don't mean to spread bad info

I know that happened with the Felt IAsomething bars a year or so ago, which you may be remembering. I don’t remember a similar situation with PD, but certainly could have missed it.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: Profile Design Aeria Ultimate aerobar and stem [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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I have the Aeria ultimate front end system - complete with stem, integrated hydration, base bar etc.

Problem is, product recall from PD due to several base bars breaking.

Has anyone had the same recall experience, and if so, were you offered a replacement?

Later models with specific product codes indicate ‘safe’ and ‘unsafe’ products I’m told (by PD).

As an aside, if it’s just the base bar, has anyone experience/recommendation as to another appropriate base bar that would compliment the remaining items that make up the integral system? ...in the event of inability from supplier to provide like for like replacement.

Answers to these questions you might well expect should come from PD themselves who are dealing with the case currently, but just wondered what people’s thoughts are if you’ve encountered the same issue.

P
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Re: Profile Design Aeria Ultimate aerobar and stem [P7] [ In reply to ]
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P7 wrote:
I have the Aeria ultimate front end system - complete with stem, integrated hydration, base bar etc.

Problem is, product recall from PD due to several base bars breaking.

Has anyone had the same recall experience, and if so, were you offered a replacement?

Later models with specific product codes indicate ‘safe’ and ‘unsafe’ products I’m told (by PD).

As an aside, if it’s just the base bar, has anyone experience/recommendation as to another appropriate base bar that would compliment the remaining items that make up the integral system? ...in the event of inability from supplier to provide like for like replacement.

Answers to these questions you might well expect should come from PD themselves who are dealing with the case currently, but just wondered what people’s thoughts are if you’ve encountered the same issue.


as you yourself note, the answers should, and do, and have, come from PD themselves. please note our article that announces the recall. and our article that features the new replacement.

as you note, the culprit is the pursuit bar and, mostly - as well as i can tell - it's the length of the pursuit bar after the forward bend. PD granted users a lot of length. too much length. the bar was always meant to be cut down. PD gave users too much rope. no good deed goes unpunished. in fact, OE bike makers failed to cut the bars down. this was a mistake in my opinion. as a former bike maker, we always cut our bars - pursuit bars and/or extensions - down to size. but i digress...

it may well be that there are other changes to the pursuit bar that PD made besides shortening the pursuit extension length. but you should know that there are replacements right now and even THESE need (in my opinion) to be cut down to size. PD has a lot of dealers. PD's dealers will execute the swap. also, if you got the bar as a result of a complete bike purchase, your bike maker is apprised of the issue and can help you.

did you attempt to get a new, replacement, base bar and fail, because of the bar being out of stock? if so, please advise, i'll see what i can dig up in the form of an answer.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Feb 6, 20 11:09
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Re: Profile Design Aeria Ultimate aerobar and stem [P7] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Has anyone had the same recall experience, and if so, were you offered a replacement?

P

I had 2 in my fit studio. I checked the numbers - both fell within the recall. I called PD to confirm and then took their necessary steps: I broke the bar, took a pic of the broken bar, sent it to PD, got a new bar 3 days later. Piece of cake. They were perfect in the process.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Profile Design Aeria Ultimate aerobar and stem [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan, thank you so much. Such a helpful response.

I’ve been offered a replacement but the UK PD isn’t certain if/how long this will take for them to receive the replacement, which for me complicates race season (IM races starting for the year in next 6 weeks, so I’d like the new bar to be with my technician ASAP)

I was wondering about alternative options as a base bar so that I can still run the exiting stem, integrated hydration unit and extenders etc, should the delay be very long or simply that a new issue isn’t possible.

So, the bar that was returned could well have stayed with my technician and could have been cut down? That makes sense.

I live in Melbourne, Australia. The item was returned to the UK.

Thank you again
Paul
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Re: Profile Design Aeria Ultimate aerobar and stem [P7] [ In reply to ]
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P7 wrote:
Dan, thank you so much. Such a helpful response.

I’ve been offered a replacement but the UK PD isn’t certain if/how long this will take for them to receive the replacement, which for me complicates race season (IM races starting for the year in next 6 weeks, so I’d like the new bar to be with my technician ASAP)

I was wondering about alternative options as a base bar so that I can still run the exiting stem, integrated hydration unit and extenders etc, should the delay be very long or simply that a new issue isn’t possible.

So, the bar that was returned could well have stayed with my technician and could have been cut down? That makes sense.

I live in Melbourne, Australia. The item was returned to the UK.

Thank you again
Paul

mind, i don't know what ELSE may have been done to the old bar to make it the new bar. it is my guess that the lever created by that overlong extension made it vulnerable. not simply via riding, but via a bump. if you crashed and landed on it. if you had one of those bike cases that allowed you to take a bike on an airline without disassembly. but i can't say that cutting down the old bar made it the new bar. i just don't know. i only know that one difference between the old and new bars is the length.

let me do some checking and see what can be drummed up for you. please let me know where you would need it to be shipped: the UK or OZ.

and can i add that, as this is where we've gotten in your first 20 minutes posting on slowtwitch, it should be obvious you effing came to the right place, brother!

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Profile Design Aeria Ultimate aerobar and stem [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Okay

Much appreciated for your expertise and digging for alternatives.

Yep, definitely Australia (MELBOURNE) is where I live.

Is it easier to message direct or via slow twitch?. All good.

Very very much appreciated.
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Re: Profile Design Aeria Ultimate aerobar and stem [P7] [ In reply to ]
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P7 wrote:
Okay

Much appreciated for your expertise and digging for alternatives.

Yep, definitely Australia (MELBOURNE) is where I live.

Is it easier to message direct or via slow twitch?. All good.

Very very much appreciated.

i know how to reach you.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Profile Design Aeria Ultimate aerobar and stem [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman, i disagree. PD has never stated that the basebar is not usable without cut down. Mountain bike handlebars (especially long ones) are often designed to be cut to length, but they are designed so that they won't fail even at max length. As a customer, how would I know that have to cut down an aerobar to avoid cracking it?

Is it safe if I cut the basebar length by 1 inch? Should I cut more? Am I expected to model this out in CAD with physics simulation as a customer?

There's also the question of why give so much length if you it cannot be used in that configuration. I am sure it costs (marginally) more to make the bars longer. PD simply made an engineering mistake in estimating either how much torque carbon can take or how much torque the rider can put on it.

It's fine to sympathize with manufacturers (especially ones that have a history of doing the right things), and I believe PD is doing good for its end customers. But it's a bridge too far to call an engineering mistake a "good deed".

Slowman wrote:
PD gave users too much rope. no good deed goes unpunished. in fact, OE bike makers failed to cut the bars down.
Last edited by: bloodyshogun: Feb 6, 20 13:02
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Re: Profile Design Aeria Ultimate aerobar and stem [bloodyshogun] [ In reply to ]
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bloodyshogun wrote:
Slowman, i disagree. PD has never stated that the basebar is not usable without cut down.

There's also the question of why give so much length if you it cannot be used in that configuration. I am sure it costs (marginally) more to make the bars longer. PD simply made an engineering mistake in estimating either how much torque carbon can take or how much torque the rider can put on it.

It's fine to sympathize with manufacturers, and I believe PD is doing good for its end customers. But it's a bridge too far to call an engineering mistake a "good deed".

Slowman wrote:
PD gave users too much rope. no good deed goes unpunished. in fact, OE bike makers failed to cut the bars down.

i did not say that PD required the bar to be cut down. i wrote that it allows the bar to be cut down. it's my own view that it should be cut down. not for safety's sake, but for ergonomics. the position is too far in front of the steering axis if you hold way out there. you're going to bang your knees on your pads. there's a lot wrong with a position that far forward.

we see the same thing with aerobar extensions. not with PD's necessarily, just in general. very often extensions are made unreasonably long. no one would ever use extensions that long. the manufacturer doesn't require them to be cut, but the product in common use begs to be cut, either because they're too long, or because on a ski bend extension they're often way to high, esp after you put bar end shifters there.

were i PD i'd just not have made the forward protrusions that long. in doing so it created a problem for itself, needlessly. it's absolutely an engineering mistake. but like airline crashes, it's usually a combo of problems and in this case it was PD's generous extension length combined with bike makers' lack of attention to the proper length of an extension on a bike they sell, combined with (possibly, and i'm guessing here) a trauma to the bar not contemplated in the testing (blunt force impact rather than a fatigue failure).

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Profile Design Aeria Ultimate aerobar and stem [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, it's semantics. But i think we disagree on, to what standard a manufacture should be held to.

I believe a manufacturer should be responsible for ensuring its products are safe in all expected rider scenario. If not, clear instructions have to be provided. This bar is sold at retail with no instructions on cutting base bar. It's also uncommon to cut basebars, so I don't think equipment manufacturers should be expected to do so without instructions from PD. Maybe PD did tell bike makers to cut down base bars. If so, I would agree it's the bike makers fault for assembled bikes. But then why didn't PD give such instructions to its retail customers?

I think you believe a customer (or bike makers) is supposed to know to that the PD bars are too long, and you should cut them down so as to make sure they don't crack.

I believe that's your ex-manufacturer bias, and I believe it's anti-consumer, but I digress.

Slowman wrote:
the bar was always meant to be cut down.
Last edited by: bloodyshogun: Feb 6, 20 13:18
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Re: Profile Design Aeria Ultimate aerobar and stem [bloodyshogun] [ In reply to ]
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bloodyshogun wrote:
Yes, it's semantics. But i think we disagree on, to what standard a manufacture should be hold to.

I believe a manufacturer should be responsible for ensuring its products are safe in all expected rider scenario. If not, clear instructions have to be provided. This bar is sold at retail with no instructions on cutting base bar. It's also uncommon to cut basebars, so I don't think equipment manufacturers should be expected to do so without instructions from PD. Maybe PD did tell bike makers to cut down base bars. If so, I would agree it's the bike makers fault for assembled bikes. But then why didn't PD give such instructions to its retail customers?

I think you believe a customer (or bike makers) is supposed to know to that the PD bars are too long, and you should cut them down so as to make sure they don't crack.

I believe that's your ex-manufacturer bias, and I believe it's anti-consumer, but I digress.

Slowman wrote:
the bar was always meant to be cut down.

i think all the things you write above are true. you're correct 4 times. yes, PD should have done all the things you said it should have done. yes, i believe bike makers should cut down anything that's made to be cut, and that is too long if left uncut. yes, i believe manufacturers should make bikes that function properly. and yes, that's my ex-manufacturer bias.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Profile Design Aeria Ultimate aerobar and stem [bloodyshogun] [ In reply to ]
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Consulting on the fit range for the Aeria Ultimate was the first project I worked on with PD. The reason for the length of the grips is solely to give fit options - they never needed to be cut down to be safe.
The new version that the recalled bars are being replaced with has shorter grips as Hydraulic levers have become a thing and they have greater reach.

Dan mentioned extensions - it's a similar philosophy. Essentially the grips and extensions are designed to fit the higher end of the rider height range and can then be cut down to suit smaller riders. In the case of extensions there is also a shorter version to make it easier for OEs to spec a more appropriate length on their small bike sizes.

I agree with Dan that fitters/stores should have been cutting down the grips for smaller riders - that was always the intention behind making the grip capable of being cut. But it isn't a case of 'must cut down'

Speedtheory
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Re: Profile Design Aeria Ultimate aerobar and stem [P7] [ In reply to ]
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I've been in touch with PD Sales management - someone will be in touch today to organise a bar getting shipped from NZ.

Speedtheory
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