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Probably the 1 millionth bike fit thread, sorry
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So I only started training and competing in triathlons this year, having now done 2 quarter distance triathlons and a sprint. I just use my road bike to which I've added clip on aero bars, Flo 60/90 carbon/alu wheels,.. I have also gotten a bike fit on it recently which has definitely helped getting rid of some issues I had, and gotten me more aero then I used to be. However with the season now over, I'm looking into getting a bit more aero if possible without having to make too many modifications since I also still want to use it to ride for instance the spring classics here in Belgium. I was looking into getting for instance a -20° or -35° stem to get lower in the front, which I can easily swap out if I want to use my bike for regular riding.

Now with hip angle and other things being so important, I thought it might be better to get some advice from the knowledgable people on here, in the hopes that it doesn't end in a shit storm like one particular fit thread recently has.. Haha.

I'm 5'7 with about a 30" inseam
Cranklength is 170mm (fitter said I could benefit from going to 165's or shorter with regards to tt position)
Size 51.5 frame
90mm stem
Saddle height is 683mm
Pad X and Y are +-395mm and +-580mm
Tip of the saddle is about 22mm behind center BB

Slowman's fit calculator had me at 466mm and 585mm, but the big difference in pad X was because I'm riding a ITU style position as he called it.

Advice on other aspects of my fit, other than just if I could use a negative angled stem, are also appreciated!

Clip of me riding on the trainer the way I ride in races, cadence, head position,..:
Not the best quality but hopefully it'll do.


Thanks!


Last edited by: Tri_Joeri: Oct 6, 17 5:34
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Re: Probably the 1 millionth bike fit thread, sorry [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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For you to achieve a good "TT/Tri" position you are going to have to do a few things:

1) Test a different saddle

Ideally one that allows you to roll your hips forward and around your seat bones and also allows for solely bony pressure (on your seat bones) and not your soft tissue.

2) Get your hips more forward horizontally

See #1 for main way to accomplish this

3) Increase your armpad reach quite a bit

Longer stem, move armpads forward, etc. This will probably need to be quite a few centimeters, however. Like, rough guess...5cm or more?

These things will rotate your body around your bottom bracket, getting you more forward (/steeper) and longer. This opening of your hip angle will also allow you to eventually go lower, if you want to.
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Re: Probably the 1 millionth bike fit thread, sorry [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
For you to achieve a good "TT/Tri" position you are going to have to do a few things:

1) Test a different saddle

Ideally one that allows you to roll your hips forward and around your seat bones and also allows for solely bony pressure (on your seat bones) and not your soft tissue.

2) Get your hips more forward horizontally

See #1 for main way to accomplish this

3) Increase your armpad reach quite a bit

Longer stem, move armpads forward, etc. This will probably need to be quite a few centimeters, however. Like, rough guess...5cm or more?

These things will rotate your body around your bottom bracket, getting you more forward (/steeper) and longer. This opening of your hip angle will also allow you to eventually go lower, if you want to.


Thanks for your response!

Would it also help a bit if I would tilt the saddle downwards a bit to get my hips to roll forward? I still have a 130mm stem that I got with the bike so I can try that out right now if I want.
Last edited by: Tri_Joeri: Oct 6, 17 8:25
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Re: Probably the 1 millionth bike fit thread, sorry [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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You have the foundation of a decent fit. With the obvious caveat that the way to do a proper fit is on a dynamic fit bike, there are some things you might end up changing if you were to go through that process.

1. Your seat might come up. It is probably on the low end of an acceptable range right now.
2. Your bars might go out, but again, cockpit distance is personal and yours is well within the range of where some riders prefer to be. On the tight end, but nothing dramatic.
3. You could probably ride a bit lower, so that stem might be a good experiment. Watch your power, or inherent sense of pedaling ability.
4. You might swap saddles and get a little more comfort and forward rotation. You are sitting back basically like riding a road position, and that would likely change. This would change your seat height, distance to the bars, and the drop you could tolerate, so while I list this 4th, it would really be the place to start. First learn the posture, then set the rest of the bike up around a properly rotated pelvis.
5. Learn to relax the upper body, allowing the upper back, neck, and head to drop down between the shoulder blades. Don't pull yourself down, rather think of it as an "upper body slouch". Basically everything you know about good posture while sitting or standing, forget it.... slump. Like a drunk at a bar after one too many.
Last edited by: FindinFreestyle: Oct 6, 17 8:28
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Re: Probably the 1 millionth bike fit thread, sorry [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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your saddle is already on the low side of the spectrum, i don't think i'd mess with that.

also, the saddle you currently have will likely not allow you to "roll" your hips as you will crush your man parts.


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Re: Probably the 1 millionth bike fit thread, sorry [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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You may want to take a look at the Redshift Aero Switch system for your road bike. The aerobar portion may not add much to what you're using for clip-ons except allowing quick removal of the extensions. But the seatpost allows for shifting forward about 5cm and up a little while riding.

DC Rainmaker, Jim Manton @ ERO and Aerogeeks all have reviewed the system.
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Re: Probably the 1 millionth bike fit thread, sorry [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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You are getting a lot of good advice. Fit is complicated when it comes to what your goals are. However one very easy, big pay off is video yourself with an aero helmet on. Work on turtle-ing your head down. Think about dropping your chin as low to the ground as you can to get the melon out of the wind. This is worth a LOT and just requires some discipline.
Last edited by: Rider17: Oct 6, 17 18:24
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Re: Probably the 1 millionth bike fit thread, sorry [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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I missed a couple of responses I see now, but everyone thanks for the advice!

I'm filming myself now when I make adjustments and try to measure knee, hip and shoulder angle on screen to see if it makes sense what I'm doing.
I'm not using a TT helmet for now, but I have a Bontrager Ballista which I'd like to think is a quite aero'ish helmet already.

With regards to changing saddles, is a Fizik Arione Tri 2 a good substitute for the Prologo road bike saddle I'm using now?
I know all saddles are different for everyone, but in general do they provide the right support and allow me to rotate my pelvis more without hurting my gentleman parts?
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Re: Probably the 1 millionth bike fit thread, sorry [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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No. A Fizik Arione Tri2 is just a padded regular nosed saddle. In my opinion, you should almost certainly be looking for a "noseless" saddle. ISM, Cobb, Fizik, Specialized, Dash, etc. all make noseless models.

Athletes that currently have ''good fits'' on ''traditional'' saddles are usually just so ingrained in their ways that they can't ride anything else. Basically, they are/were roadies longggg before they were triathletes. So usually, don't listen to them for saddle advice. Their fit or physiology is actually most likely compromised by their inability to change.
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Re: Probably the 1 millionth bike fit thread, sorry [SummitAK] [ In reply to ]
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SummitAK wrote:
You may want to take a look at the Redshift Aero Switch system for your road bike. The aerobar portion may not add much to what you're using for clip-ons except allowing quick removal of the extensions. But the seatpost allows for shifting forward about 5cm and up a little while riding.

DC Rainmaker, Jim Manton @ ERO and Aerogeeks all have reviewed the system.

I've looked at a solution like that, unfortunately my seatpost isn't round so I doubt it'll fit my bike I'm afraid.. Would be ideal if I could just flip the seatpost 180° or something but the shape doesn't allow that
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Re: Probably the 1 millionth bike fit thread, sorry [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
No. A Fizik Arione Tri2 is just a padded regular nosed saddle. In my opinion, you should almost certainly be looking for a "noseless" saddle. ISM, Cobb, Fizik, Specialized, Dash, etc. all make noseless models.

Athletes that currently have ''good fits'' on ''traditional'' saddles are usually just so ingrained in their ways that they can't ride anything else. Basically, they are/were roadies longggg before they were triathletes. So usually, don't listen to them for saddle advice. Their fit or physiology is actually most likely compromised by their inability to change.

Ok, thanks for the advice! I'll have to look around for a noseless saddle then, and then come back here for an update once I get things sorted.
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Re: Probably the 1 millionth bike fit thread, sorry [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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So, an update about a year later:

I got a Retul fit done by one of the forum members who's recommended in the fitter database and bought a 2015 Trek Speed Concept afterwards on which I got a nice deal. It was equipped with Ultegra 6800 with 170mm cranks and the Bontrager Hilo Comp saddle I was fit on (felt the best too me compared to for instance the ISM PN3.0 and 1.1). I got fit on 155mm cranks, but at the moment I can't spend €400+ on a set of Rotor 3D24 cranks.. Fortunately I managed to source 165mm Ultegra 6800 cranks from an elderly lady who got them with her size 47 road bike. I lowered the saddle 10mm to compensate for the 10mm longer cranks and tried to dial in the fit I got on the bike since I got it (or something close that felt good). Got a deal on a Giro Aerohead, which I bought since to me it seemed like a pretty good match for my fit. I should have a bit more saddle setback than what I currently have but I need to source another seat post to get there.

This was my first try but the saddle looked too high imo (after remeasuring this also appeared to be true). Wearing long dark cycling pants since I came back from a long ride in cold weather so might not be too useful anyway:




Lowered the seat:





Sorry for the lack of proper lighting but that's as good as I could get it.. The front view is also not ideal..


So except for going for 155mm cranks which would at least look better going by my upper body position on the first video, and possibly extensions that allow a higher hand position, how does this look?
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Re: Probably the 1 millionth bike fit thread, sorry [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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I have no comment about the seat height but your fit seems very good. You need to focus on level 2 stuff now, like really shrugging your shoulders up and in to get narrow. There's a little trick with your hands and extensions that you could do to facilitate this.

Eric

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Probably the 1 millionth bike fit thread, sorry [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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Tri_Joeri wrote:
So, an update about a year later: ... snip .... how does this look?

General comments:
- Nice, tidy room. I like that
- Bed not properly made. I'm telling your mom
- Lack of decoration on wall to the left
- Can't make out who's in the photo facing you; this is important because should provide motivation when riding.

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
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Re: Probably the 1 millionth bike fit thread, sorry [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:
I have no comment about the seat height but your fit seems very good. You need to focus on level 2 stuff now, like really shrugging your shoulders up and in to get narrow. There's a little trick with your hands and extensions that you could do to facilitate this.

Eric

Thanks Eric, I was hoping for feedback from someone like you! Would you say the saddle is too high in the first clip as well (although knee flexion etc might not be visible that well because of the dark room and pants)? Or am I right at the limit of acceptable there?

Is this trick with my hands and extensions one I can find online or which you are willing to share maybe?
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Re: Probably the 1 millionth bike fit thread, sorry [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
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Richard Blaine wrote:
Tri_Joeri wrote:
So, an update about a year later: ... snip .... how does this look?


General comments:
- Nice, tidy room. I like that
- Bed not properly made. I'm telling your mom
- Lack of decoration on wall to the left
- Can't make out who's in the photo facing you; this is important because should provide motivation when riding.

Haha good one! I at least try to keep it tidy, but you're right about the bed. No going out past my 8pm curfew for a week probably..

Well it's a picture of me and a few friends celebrating New Years Eve looking at a nude calendar one of their girlfriends got me as a present, so I've got the motivational part covered (the naked ladies on the calendar, not the dudes).
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Re: Probably the 1 millionth bike fit thread, sorry [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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it's too dark to really tell about your saddle.

Regarding extensions, ski bends provide a place to "push back" against while you use your muscles to shrug and turtle your head and shoulders. By digging the heel of your hands into the tips of your ski bends, rather than grabbing the extensions with your palms, it is a kinetic cue to rotate hands, arms, and shoulders inward and gives you a solid foundation from which to shrug and turtle.

Ideally, the bike should be doing a lot of the shrug and turtle for you... you're halfway there with the extra reach, now you need to get the extension tips and elbow pads working for you instead of you working for them so to speak.

Tri_Joeri wrote:
ericMPro wrote:
I have no comment about the seat height but your fit seems very good. You need to focus on level 2 stuff now, like really shrugging your shoulders up and in to get narrow. There's a little trick with your hands and extensions that you could do to facilitate this.

Eric


Thanks Eric, I was hoping for feedback from someone like you! Would you say the saddle is too high in the first clip as well (although knee flexion etc might not be visible that well because of the dark room and pants)? Or am I right at the limit of acceptable there?

Is this trick with my hands and extensions one I can find online or which you are willing to share maybe?

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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