"when there was no resistance"

the marines outside the hospital where drawing fire. there was resistance.

the whole thing is spun to high heaven. god bless her but it's not a million dollar story.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

News reports dispute that the rescuing marines were under fire.

"The doctors told us that the day before the special forces swooped on the hospital the Iraqi military had fled. Hassam Hamoud, a waiter at a local restaurant, said he saw the American advance party land in the town. He said the team's Arabic interpreter asked him where the hospital was. "He asked: 'Are there any Fedayeen over there?' and I said, 'No'." All the same, the next day "America's finest warriors" descended on the building.

"We heard the noise of helicopters," says Dr Anmar Uday. He says that they must have known there would be no resistance. "We were surprised. Why do this? There was no military, there were no soldiers in the hospital. "

Read http://www.guardian.co.uk/...,3604,956127,00.html for more info.

lets say i disbelieve my friends and there was no fire. they went in with overwhelming force becuase that is the safest way to go. in a combat situation you don't say 'what is the minimum amount i can use.'

it was over blown but it was not set up.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

 
I've got no problem with sending in enough troops to control the situation, it seems though that the opportunity to spin the event to get positive publicity was too tempting. The post-event analysis suggests that there was no real danger in the rescue mission and that this was known beforehand.

The problem with manipulating the news is that it's hard to stop the truth from leaking out eventually.

And I wasn't there so have no first hand information.

Down where rather than actually being shot down and having to be rescued they got lost, crashed the trucks and were treated medically by locals, a gripping new spin on the old school POW type of scenario.

exactly. this is a good news story but not great. it's all been done. i'm glad she is back and i think she is a hero. it's not a million dollar story and it has been blown way out of sight.

i am just saying that the rescue was not overdone because anyone worth a damn won't trust intel saying the defense is light to none. you all ways get ready for everything.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

For my next tri, I will ask an Iraqi doctor who is going to enter in my age group, and then I will only train hard enough to beat who he says is going to be there. I hope the "post-event analysis" shows that this was a good strategy. Only problem with post-event analysis, it doesn't do you any good retroactively. If you go in underprepared, you're screwed. We owe our troops better. BTW--the military has photojournalists attached to many combat units. No surprise there were some there. This is really a case of the liberal press machine jumping at the chance to find a female "hero" to support their objective of getting women assigned to front-line military combat units. Then, when the story didn't turn out the way they wanted, they tried to spin it another way.

Pardon my candor in advance my friends, but arm chair quarter backing our military from the uncompromised safety of our desktops is utterly inappropriate. What really happened in Lynch's rescue? The facts may never be available. Do they need to be? IMHO, No, they don't. One thing for sure, had the operation failed and the rescue team ambushed on the ground and Lynch killed there would have also been enormous criticism. What lesson did the U.S. Special Operations community learn from Mogadishu, Urgent Fury, failed Iran hostage rescue mission, the Son Tay raid and all the ones we will never hear about? Here's the lesson: Go in hot, err on the side of caution. Provide adequate support. Have the resources available on the ground and in the air, at a second's notice, to respond to an asymmetrical and escalating threat. We know intelligence on the ground in Iraq is shaky at best. Acting on that, what would have done? Strolled into town and asked for Private Lynch to be discharged from the hospital? It's a war. Mean people who want to kill you have guns. Also, is it a million dollar story? Give me a break, it's worth ten times that in the first 12 months.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I don't consider her any more of a hero than the other 100,000 troops on the ground. She did her job as best she could like the rest of our brave men and women. On the other hand, if she can land $1,000,000 out of the deal, good for her. Too bad the other 100,000 troops can't do the same.

Maybe this is a million dollar story. I for one will be more interested in the real treatment she received as a POW than I was in Hillary's fictitious, non fiction book, and she received $8,000,000 up front.

Well, this is a volunteer military so the character of it is a bit different. One could argue that they all asked for it. However, having served in the military myself when the draft was very much alive I have an entirely different perspective. Despite the nature of the current military, anyone who is in a combat role anywhere in the world is acting heroically in the sense that they may do or are doing something most of us couldn't and wouldn't do-fight to the death. (I hold this view of the "common" soldier regardless of the quality of the thinking that went into getting our young men and women involved. Thus, my Marine buddies who fought in Nam were all heroes from my perspective, even though the war was a major policy mistake.)

From this perspective, I think Jessica Lynch is a heroine. BUT, let's not use her heroism as a substitute for real debate about the stupidity of GW in getting us involved in this very expensive bit of nation building (something he pledged not to do in his campaign).

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Davet -- thanks for posting that link, which I saw at the time but didn't emerge in the U.S. press in any sytematic way for several weeks (and at least one People magazine "Pvt. Lynch, At Home And In Love" cover story) later.

I was in Baghdad for much of July, and heard several soldiers male and female -- giving their own take on the Jessica Lynch odessy in what can be most politely described as less-than-glowing terms.

Anyway, she's just another 19-year old kid and I'm happy she made it through and is already discharged. Cashing in on movie and book deals is the American Way as people enjoy myths.

Certainly easier and more entertaining than getting your mind around the real challenge that still lies ahead there -- one that may or may not have a happy ending.

I might be wrong but didn't Chesty Puller say " War is about Money"

No one mentions the 11 dead troops that died; this is a tragedy more than a heroic 'PFC Lynch' story:

https://seal.navy.mil/seal/news/040403.asp




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Home > Naval Special Warfare News




More Details on Lynch Rescue, 11 Bodies Found

By Jim Garamone, American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, April 2, 2003 – Coalition special operations forces rescued Army Pfc. Jessica D. Lynch from the hands of her Iraqi captors during a mission into the town of Nasiriyah, U.S. Central Command officials said today.

Lynch was held at the Saddam Hospital – a facility used by the regime as a military post – said Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks, Central Command's deputy chief of operations, during a press conference in Qatar.

Lynch, 19, is assigned to the 507th Ordnance Maintenance Company, based at Fort Bliss, Texas. Lynch had been missing since March 23, when irregular Iraqi forces ambushed the convoy she was riding in. Central Command officials said the convoy took a wrong turn around Nasiriyah and was ambushed by civilian-clothed Iraqi soldiers.

Brooks said Army Rangers, Air Force combat controllers, Navy SEALs and conventional Marines participated in the mission. There were no coalition casualties. "It was a classic joint operation done by some of our nation's finest warriors who are dedicated to never leaving a comrade behind," he said.

The raiders also found 11 bodies at the hospital, Brooks said. Two were found in the morgue and nine others were buried in a nearby graveyard.

"Coalition forces were escorted to those locations by someone who was taken into custody during the assault," he said. "At this point, we're doing additional forensic examination and medical examination as to who they might be."

There were no firefights inside the hospital, but plenty of action outside, Brooks said. The forces found mortars, ammunition, maps, terrain models and other equipment, making it clear Iraqi forces were using the hospital as a military headquarters.

Army officials said Lynch is being flown to Germany for further treatment.

"She is safe, she has been retrieved, and some brave souls put their lives on the line to make it happen," Brooks said. "They are loyal to a creed that they know, that they will never leave a fallen comrade and never embarrass their country."
[/i]



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great point. thanks.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Very good point (ditto Customeron's remark).

In fairness, though, the Guardian piece does exactly that, and right up front:

"Nine of her US comrades were killed. Iraqi soldiers took Lynch to the local hospital, which was swarming with fedayeen, where she was held for eight days. That much is uncontested."

No-one (least of all me) doubts these soldiers' sense of mission, personal bravery, or willingness to put their own lives on the line -- and that certainly includes those who freed her as well.

That said, the rest of the Guardian's account is worth a read as well, for the bigger issues it addresses. It all came to light when British journalists bothered to actually do a bit if journalism and interview the doctors who treated her.

FWIW: to clarify, the uniformly disparaging assessents I heard from troops about this incident while I was in B'dad in July had less to do with the PR "spin" placed on the rescue, and far more to do with the issue of how/why her vehicle strayed far off course and into harm's way in the first place.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/...,3604,956127,00.html

a few points...

about getting lost. it happens all the time. anyone ever get lost in there home town? now go to the dessert and stay on course. the only military units that don't get lost are in the movies.

the doctor talked to the reporter after the whole sha-bang. i'm not saying he's a liar but where is his proof? that lawyer is getting some good stuff for his actions maybe he is trying to get some too.

of course the soldiers would have fired at the ambulance. in war time a vechile charging at you is bad. there where ways he could have done it better. which of course raises more questions about the doctors story.

even if the doctor is telling the truth it makes no diffrence.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Agree with virtually all that you say, Tom.

However, on the arm chair quarterback/uncompromised safety/inapproriate to comment thing...

I had two surface-to air missiles launched at my C-130 shortly after takeoff from Baghdad (headed up to Mosul) on July 13... the dummy flares launched to confuse them (which happily saved our asses) exploded close enough to where I was sitting in the rear cargo area to actually smell the explosive.

Is that sufficiently non "armchair for you? 'Cause it sure was for me. :-)

That said, I'm fortunate enough to be back Stateside, now -- an early return isn't something you even discussed in public over there.

Hoping against hope that the mission will be accomplished with sufficient speed/success that all the great folks I met there will be also get to come home before too very long.

jon -- all valid points.

FWIW, British journalists generally view it as their professional responsibility to try to take a more skeptical approach -- one of them described it as the desire to be, if necessary, "embeds without being inbeds".

If you look at out own great WWII journalists (Pyle, Murrow, etc.), they often walked this professional line as well -- yet no-one ever doubted their sympathies were with the GIs.

Am reading a terrific book right now by the BBC's John Simpson called News from No Man's Land -- his treatment of this conundrum (dating back to the birth of dedicated combat journalism in the Crimean War) is by far the best I've ever read.

Man, I just love military jargon. "Asymmetrical threat," indeed. As opposed to what? A perfect parallelogram threat?

 "my C-130"

god i love that bird. got the point where i couldn't sleep unless i was thrown around by turbulance and being made deaf by the props. god bless ya!

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

I always wondered who, if ever, was the victim of the reasoning behind the 'propeller warning' lines painted in the cargo bay, every time I flew in one I wondered if a blade snapped of and came through the plane.

weird

long flights on those babys

ever had to sit in the tail during heavy weather? lost a couple good dinners that way.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

...all I can say is we pulled some manouevers and g's for about five minutes that I didn't think you could pull in a prop bird that old and heavy -- amazing the stresses that airframe can handle. Pilot was obviously doing evasive until we got to a better altitude, so the effect on the g.i. tract was pretty much as you describe. :-(

Besides the two crew who were snapped on to a line and had their feet wedged against the pallets, there was one other guy back there with me -- Dick P., a special security agent for the State Dept. who's seen and done some real hellholes in his time (Congo war, Bosnia, etc. -- his resume soundid like something straight out of Zevon's Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner).

With a smirk, he yelled, "what'd you think about that!?" I told him the sad part was that my 12 year-old son would eagerly pay good money for a scary ride like that. As for me, I'll never complain about commercial flights again.

What was up with those fold-down toilets? They sucked. Ever notice the best way to cure to cure constipation is to strap on a parachute and 75 pounds worth of combat gear? The second the last piece of junk is hung on your body you realize you have to take a poop. Typical deal. Still, nothing beats low and fast at 3:00 AM in a Combat Talon somewhere yoou don;t know where you are.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com