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Powercranks vs. Rotorcranks-The winner is...
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After almost a year of trying to figure it out I have made the decision on which system is the best. The winner is...

Rotorcranks

I believe Rotorcranks do as advertised. Frank Day makes a quality product that allows you to train your body to move the cranks with even force through out all 360 degrees. I couldn't say they didn't work so I had to find another way to make the decision.

I thought about what I was looking for in a crank. I wanted it to allow me the best use of my energy. Power cranks where in the lead because I thought the training of the muscles and mind to get a perfect circular was the only way. Then Vitus 979 brought up the question of why perfect circles. The point that we evolved as a walking animal and our legs are used for pushing. I reread the Rotorcrank information and realized the reason I was leaning toward Powercranks was the idea that Rotorcranks where somehow "less pure" do the fact they used a mechanical element to assist the movement of the leg through the dead spot.

What I realized was is that cycling is a mechanical sport. The modifying of a crank to help minimize the dead spot went hand and hand with the sport. Also Powercranks have a steep learning curve that Rotorcranks don't have. With Rotorcranks you just slap them on and in a few rides you have it down. Powercranks train and exhaust small muscles to do a job that they didn't evolve to do. So you have sometime where you have to ride for very short periods and rest. I just want to ride.

I think Powercranks are a great buy if you want the training advantage you get for the run. I really see how they will help those of us who Pose (trademark).

I just want to ride.

This is not a troll do to the fact once I comment on something the logic is so crystal clear and airtight there can't be an argument.



customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Powercranks vs. Rotorcranks-The winner is... [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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Why does this sound like the FIRST true and independent comparison report between the two systems?



I know! Because Mr. Tibbs never rode neither system! :-)))

-
"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com
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Re: Powercranks vs. Rotorcranks-The winner is... [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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I've come to the conclusion that conventional cranks are the true winners having ridden PC's for a year. They are free on your bike (i.e. no additional cost) and don't make you do anything differently :-). That being said, I am very glad that I invested in Powercranks as they have taught me to ride pedalling in true circles, a skill that I will now have for life. As they say, fitness comes and goes, skill stays with you for life. I will likely do 30-50% of my riding going forward on PC's to continue to enhance skill and efficiency as my engine, at the age of 38 and 25 years in competitivie sport is not getting more powerful. May as well train smarter and use technique to maintain any speed I have.

Hopefully, Rotorcranks will become standard on all bikes just like the derrailleur. Then Rotorcranks will be the new "conventional" crank ! Either this will happen or the UCI will outlaw them when some guy down in 101st place on the TdF's final TT smokes Lance and Ullrich by 2 min.
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Re: Powercranks vs. Rotorcranks-The winner is... [smartasscoach] [ In reply to ]
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"I know! Because Mr. Tibbs never rode neither system! :-))) "

I find real world testing to be old thinking. Using the powers of my massive intelect (spelled wrong for comedy) I took mental test rides. Also since I believe both companies I went with the idea of less effort put into the system. A Secondhand test cand be developed though.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Powercranks vs. Rotorcranks-The winner is... [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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Tibbs says: "I think Powercranks are a great buy if you want the training advantage you get for the run."

I'd say PCs are not only "a great buy" for those (with $700 spare) looking to run stronger off the bike (i.e., all triathletes) - but a better buy than rotorcranks for these people (i.e., all triathletes). Your searingly insightful arguments in favor of RCs are based on your own needs as a pure cyclist ("I just want to ride") but as such is only valid for other pure cyclists who may be reading this triathlon forum!

As a triathlete I'd go with PCs over RCs (again if I had $700 spare) because it will assist key muscle/tendon development and smooth pedaling motion for higher wattage and run benefit. RCs certainly look interesting. Kudos to any idea that challenges the status quo. But if the RC crank system is indisputibly "better" than traditional cranks then market forces will ensure that RCs or some variation thereof will be adopted by shimano and campy and RCs will become standard on all bikes. Until that happens, I'll stick with what came on my bike.
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Re: Powercranks vs. Rotorcranks-The winner is... [johnthesavage] [ In reply to ]
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Not true. I am a triathlete becoming a duathlete. The point about just wanting to ride is the fact that when I am on the bike I want little distraction. I want to push the cranks and sing Physco Killer or Blood Makes Noise and jam.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Powercranks vs. Rotorcranks-The winner is... [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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Another thing to mention here is that, once used to the motion (for me it was 20 minutes) the Rotors "fade" into your normal pedaling, you do not even notice them anymore ... What you do notice is the speed increase. See, they just make the rider and bicycle more efficient and allow better transfer of power from the rider to the wheels.

- Gary

Last edited by: Gary Tingley: Apr 6, 04 21:11
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Re: Powercranks vs. Rotorcranks-The winner is... [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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No, I'm not trying to sell anything here. I have no interest in either company.

"Power cranks where in the lead because I thought the training of the muscles and mind to get a perfect circular was the only way. Then Vitus 979 brought up the question of why perfect circles. The point that we evolved as a walking animal and our legs are used for pushing."

For the last f-ing time, PowerCranks do not teach you to pedal in "perfect circles". All they do is recruit more muscles into the pedal stroke, specifically into the recovery. Why this is lost in every PC discussion, I have no idea. F it. What's the use? I'm sick of the damn discussion anyway. After all, we evolved as a walking animal and have no business being on a bike.
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Re: Powercranks vs. Rotorcranks-The winner is... [Pooks] [ In reply to ]
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So the muscle are recurited to do what? I missed the point. This seems to be a ver personal and sensitve issue for you. I think you need to just breath deep and repeat "It's just Tibbs talking aobut cranks" about a million times.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Powercranks vs. Rotorcranks-The winner is... [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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I have been using Powercranks since the begining of February and since then I have found that I almost don't even realize I am using them any more. I think I am starting to adapt. :)

I did my first bi-weekly roadie ride of the year yesterday using my Powercranks and got dropped. :( I figure I am going to get dropped a lot for at least a month. Hopefully by May though my endurance will be such that I will be able to stay at least at the back of the pack.

Last year on regular cranks I only got dropped 1 or 2 times, and that was because the guy in front of me bonked and before I could react the pack in front of him gapped me.

Currently I have 2 bikes. One road and one triathlon. The road bike has the powercranks and the triathlon one isn't as good for roadie rides. What I really need is another road bike with normal cranks that I could use for the bi-weekly rides. Using powercranks on these rides isn't as stable and I am not sure I can react as fast to sudden surges as I could with normal cranks.
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Re: Powercranks vs. Rotorcranks-The winner is... [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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Besides trying to decide if/which system to buy due to limited funds, there is not a real conflict between PowerCranks VS Rotorcranks. They are not in opposition to one another.

They're different from one another, that's for sure.

I can see Rotorcranks, or some variation, becoming as common as deraillers....the concept makes sense...use your most powerful and evolutionary-wise-structurally-well-adapted muscles to do work more effectively, you can therefore get more power to the chain. However, PowerCranks are an accessory-muscle-system recruiting device that also train coordination with the extensor muscles, to therefore increase power to the chain.



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
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Re: Powercranks vs. Rotorcranks-The winner is... [TRI] [ In reply to ]
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Don't sweat it...pretty soon, you can do a normal road ride at normal road pace with the boys, reacting to surges and doing all out, out of the saddle sprints and hopefully winning a few. When you go back to regular cranks, your out of the saddle sprint will be even faster...

No arguement from me that we evolved as a "pushing breed", so Rotorcranks works with evolution, while powercranks help make us more efficient at something we are not designed to do...namely pedal in circles.
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Re: Powercranks vs. Rotorcranks-The winner is... [yaquicarbo] [ In reply to ]
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Yaqui,

You are right. RC's and PC's do two completely different things. Most people don't have a clue (including Gary) that they really don't compete against each other (other than for the discretionary dollar) but are, rather, complementary.

One makes one get more out of the engine one has and the other gives one a better engine. Unfortunately, the PC's require a lot of hard work and take several month to begin to see big benefit usually, although the benfits will continue for most for several years at least. With the RC's, the benefits are almost immediate (although limited to cycling) but further gains with time are probably not possible (other than the usual training effect).

Mr. Tibbs has apparently decided he would rather ignore any potential running benefit of the PC's or the long-term cycling benefits of the PC's in order to avoid the frustration of missing singing along with some of his favorite songs during training and, instead has opted to get the immediate cycling benefit of the RC's.

It is interesting he has made this "informed" decision without, apparently, riding either crank and, as if, one can only have one or the other.

In response to another post. PC's do not teach people to pedal "perfect" circles, if perfect circles means even pressure around the entire circle. They do teach "perfect" circles if "perfect" circles means some forward pressure around the complete circle.

So, let me reiterate, PC's do not really compete with any other product currently on the parket as no other product does what PC's do, which is train new muscles and retrain neuromuscular coordination to something more efficient than can be done without them. PCs are complimentary to all other training and racing aids, including RC's and CT.

Frank

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Powercranks vs. Rotorcranks-The winner is... [TRI] [ In reply to ]
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Mr. Tri,

You are better off in the long run not having that third bike. Those who use the cranks that way (doing their long hard rides on regular cranks to keep up with the boys) never seem to see the big PC benefits (at least in cycling) or it seems to take much longer to see it. Post again in 2 months when you are able to keep up with your friends (and pass them when you want to) because you were able to stay the course.

Frank

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Powercranks vs. Rotorcranks-The winner is... [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]
Yaqui,

You are right. RC's and PC's do two completely different things. Most people don't have a clue (including Gary) that they really don't compete against each other (other than for the discretionary dollar) but are, rather, complementary.

One makes one get more out of the engine one has and the other gives one a better engine. Unfortunately, the PC's require a lot of hard work and take several month to begin to see big benefit usually, although the benfits will continue for most for several years at least. With the RC's, the benefits are almost immediate (although limited to cycling) but further gains with time are probably not possible (other than the usual training effect).



From my experience with Anquetil's pedaling style, I
am certain that very effective pedaling is as much
mental as physical. In the case of the rotorcranks,
the same applies and even Gary gets it wrong; to get
most benefit from them, your brain and muscles
must be working ahead of the mechanical parts,
anticipating the faster movement of the crank to
1 o'clock and already prepared for instant
application of pedal pressure. If this is not done,
there will be little difference from normal cranks as
your cranks will have to force your leg through the
dead spot area and your power application will
follow the normal slower starting time. This means
you are not doing what rotorcranks were intended
to do (give you additional minutes of pedaling time
per hour) so how could you expect to make any gains. To perfect this mental/physical technique
takes many many months.
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Post deleted by The Committee [ In reply to ]
Re: Powercranks vs. Rotorcranks-The winner is... [perfection] [ In reply to ]
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"to get
most benefit from them, your brain and muscles
must be working ahead of the mechanical parts,
anticipating the faster movement of the crank to
1 o'clock and already prepared for instant
application of pedal pressure."


not at all, if you read the multiple reviews on Rotors you will see that they "dissapear" into your pedalling and you do not notice them after 20 mins of riding, your brain requires no effort: http://www.rotorcranksusa.com/reviews.htm

Anquetil's ankling does not work and is an urban myth: http://www.faqs.org/...art4/section-26.html

- Gary
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Re: Powercranks vs. Rotorcranks-The winner is... [Gary Tingley] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Powercranks vs. Rotorcranks-The winner is... [Gary Tingley] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]
[i]"to get
most benefit from them, your brain and muscles
must be working ahead of the mechanical parts,
anticipating the faster movement of the crank to
1 o'clock and already prepared for instant
application of pedal pressure."[/i]

[b]not at all[/b], if you read the multiple reviews on Rotors you will see that they "dissapear" into your pedalling and you do not notice them after 20 mins of riding, your [b][i]brain[/i][/b] requires no effort: [url "http://www.rotorcranksusa.com/reviews.htm"]http://www.rotorcranksusa.com/reviews.htm[/url]

Anquetil's ankling does not work and is an urban myth: [url "http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part4/section-26.html"]http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part4/section-26.html[/url]

- Gary [/reply]
=====================================
Sorry about that blank. The urban myth was that
Anquetil used an ankling style, he actually used the
opposite, a linear style but was happy in my oppinion
to let them continue believing that.
Did you see A Coggan's report on Rotorcranks.
My post should probably have read " to get maximum advantage from rotorcranks".
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Re: Powercranks vs. Rotorcranks-The winner is... [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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I see the perfect training set up as:

Use power cranks for 3 months exclusively over the off season to develop the flexor muscles and retrain the nervous system to eliminate the trailing leg pressing down against the pedals. Then slowly introduce rotors, perhaps one day per week for some sustained intervals. You would then progressively add more days spent on rotors while keeping the power cranks for one easy day per week to ensure that the neuromuscular system is kept retrained.

All I need is the money to purchase both systems, Is there any millionaire out there looking to adopt?
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Re: Powercranks vs. Rotorcranks-The winner is... [RipVanWinkle] [ In reply to ]
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RVW wrote: " As numerous cyclists have proven, you can learn to pedal such "perfect" circles just by riding with regular cranks - and that's without ever practicing one-legged pedaling, using a CT with Spinscan, etc. "

Name one cyclist who has "proven" that such is possible (oh, and don't forget what that proof is). Better yet, name one researcher who has "proven" such is possible.

If such is possible and commonplace then the PC's must be doing something else, as yet undefined, to explain the improvement users see and why the top ranks of professional cyclists like them (who we would presume are pedaling about as good as possible using "conventional" training techniques).

Frank

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Post deleted by The Committee [ In reply to ]
Re: Powercranks vs. Rotorcranks-The winner is... [RipVanWinkle] [ In reply to ]
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RVW writes: "ractically every cyclist ever tested using force pedals meets your criteria for "perfect" pedaling. Then again, you would already know this if you ever bothered to look at actual data."

I have looked at the data. I have NEVER seen any data that suggests that even professional cyclists apply positive (forward) force to the pedals during the entire backstroke, let alone, even, the majority of the backstroke. The data I have seen suggests positive pressure is applied about 55% of the circle by even the best cyclists (unless, of course, they are thinking about it). Check out the data in the book "Bicycling Science" by Whitt and Wilson which, I presume, summarizes the available data. If you have other data please let us all know where it can be found and let Whitt and Wilson know before they come out with a new edition.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Post deleted by The Committee [ In reply to ]
Last edited by: RipVanWinkle: Apr 8, 04 9:51
Re: Powercranks vs. Rotorcranks-The winner is... [RipVanWinkle] [ In reply to ]
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OK, I accept that data is close to one of the definitions I gave for "perfect" circles. I also accept that it is possible although I don't think it is practical for most to learn such techniques. One thing a pretty good cyclist named Greg LeMond said to me once was something like "I spent years working on my technique to learn how to do this and now everyone can learn it in months".

I guess if everyone trains like GL or these "elite endurance cyclists" (who are probably more concerned with efficiency than most cyclists) of this study then they don't "need" PC's to learn to do this. Although, this is not to say that PC's can't improve even those in this study. One of the best "non-PC trained" people we have ever seen get on the cranks and ride happened to be the winner of RAAM the last couple of years, Allen Larsen. I think he would qualify as an "elite endurance cyclist" of this study. He got on one of our bikes at an expo and was able to ride without much difficulty for 20 minutes. Despite this ability, he is now training on PC's, I presume because he sees that it is possible for what is now a good pedal stroke to get even better.

Frank

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
Last edited by: Frank Day: Apr 8, 04 10:05
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