Thanks Dan, and any feedback contributors - I'll bite! 3 videos spanning a set of 200yd repeats today.

Lay into me! Arm position, alignment, boat anchors (feet) - whatever it is! Looking to get better, not feel good about my swim, so please do constructively critique and include drills where possible for drilling into me The Ways. Thank you!

Your upper body mechanics and body positioning look fairly solid but your kick seems intermittent. That can save energy but create drag as well.

Arms can be better positioned for a nice straight-
back catch/pull. Think “10 and 2” with arm position but on a giant steering wheel.

Pull can also benefit from better acceleration out of the water. Drill this with paddles and focus on the triceps “flick” like you’re splashing someone with water behind you to keep them from catching up.

Legs are “frogging” in and out and aren’t high enough in the water. Push the chest down more in the water (you can drill this with a kick board) and bind your ankles with a swim band to prohibit them from splaying/giant kicking. Visualize kicking quick and tight, like your feet are inside a 5-gallon bucket.

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Level II USAT Coach | Level 3 USAC Coach | NASM-CPT
Team Zoot | Tailwind Trailblazer
I can tell you why you're sick, I just can't write you an Rx

i'm no expert, but i've got a lot of years spent on this ;-)

i'll be interested to see what others, guys like tim floyd and gerry rodrigues might say. but here goes. what i really love is your body position and your kicking action. if all i saw was that spare, economical 2-beat kick of yours - if only saw you from the waist down - i'd say you're a pure swimmer. (your legs could be a little higher, but that's easily fixable and not what's slowing you down.)

my only issue is with how you treat the swim from your chest up. you're fit, muscled, and completely able to swim an effective freestyle. what do i mean by effective? here's (according to me) the gold standard:



here is you, and i'm trying to start this 40 seconds into your video (i don't know if i can get the URL right).



grant hackett sets his forearm perpendicular to the water in front of his head, and keeps it there until it's past his chest. i haven't measured it, but i suspect he's got that pulling surface pulling maximum water for 18 to 24 inches. you have your pulling surface perpendicular to the water for... what distance? you tell me? but i'm going to guess maybe 6 inches? it's not that you're not pulling any water outside of that 6-inch window, it's that as you're pulling back you're also pushing down, or pushing the water in some direction other than directly back.

while your hand is drifting down after the catch, hackett's hand extends close to the surface and then the first motion is to set the pulling surface. this is called "high elbow anchor", it's "front quadrant" swimming, it's got a lot of names. when people refer to "swimming over a barrel" imagine hackett reaching out, and around the top of the barrel, pushing back on the front of the barrel.

let me double down by really showing how much i don't know what i'm talking about. (and i'm trying to start this at :53 into the video.)



i know less than zero about canoeing, but it seems axiomatic that the earliest you can get a paddle perpendicular to the water, and the most forward progress you can make per paddle stroke - the longest you can keep that paddle in the water, perpendicular to the water - the better off you'll be. if you watch grant hackett swim, this is exactly what he does.

fortunately, it is exactly what you do not do. if you did, i wouldn't know what to tell you to do. also fortunately, you've licked the hard parts: breathing motion, body position. if you learn how to present a proper pulling surface to the water - and grip and rip it - i don't see how you don't get way, way faster.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Exactly what leaped out at me, looking at that third video. You spend minimal time actually moving water horizontally. You are pulling downwards after the catch (in which you don't hold very long), then briefly pulling backwards, then pulling upwards.

Set your hand with a high elbow, pull straight backwards (after rolling to engage the lats as the primary pulling muscle), then recover your arm when your pull effectiveness has dropped to where you need to start the whole cycle again.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Oh wow, this is SO GOOD - thank you each!! I just read through all the responses quickly now and am diving into the detail within each post. Thank you Dan, too, for the videos that you shared - love the visual-in-response-to-visual - and to the others for the drill recommendations! I'm back to the pool on Friday and, speaking of visuals, will be visualizing these new moves between now and then, and putting them into the water Friday.

If Tim or Gerry are around their critique is definitely invited! I've got Gerry's book right here on my desk beside me, and have been using those drills as an adult onset swimmer intermittently these last couple years.

It's so hard to watch a video of me, and I appreciate these additional eyes. In the water I feel like I'm doing things right (arm at 90 further up in the "power diamond" as Gerry says, butt and heels on the surface, etc etc) but these videos and your feedback absolutely show me otherwise! :)

I get the logic behind the horizontal force in the pull but one thing that's always been confusing to me a little is that there must be some period of the stroke where some component is going down. So how do you minimize that?

For instance, when you're swimming, your not above the water and not dipping your arms directly into the water perpendicularly. You're under the water or at water level, and you're not really able to extend your arms like a paddle (I think?). In the Hackett video, he does have a downward sweep where for some part he's pushing down at least partially, although it looks like this is followed by a rearward sweep with his upper arm.

I always try to kind of "scoop" the water backward but I'm not sure that makes sense, especially after seeing the Hackett video.

there is a time when really good swimmers generate lift, but it's not when they're pushing down on the water. it's during the extension phase. if you look at that grant hackett video, you can see that his hand is very gently angled during the extend phase of his stroke. others who're more knowledgeable can comment, but i think there's a lift component to that.

once he transitions to the next phase of his stroke, where he forms his pulling surface, the amount he pushes down is miniscule. he very quickly transitions his forearm and hand as one big pulling surface that pulls straight back. that is the most important thing you can say about his pull.

that requires the elbow to remain high when in the water, and a lot of adult onset swimmers hear "high elbow" and they think that means during the recovery. i think what we see is that it doesn't much matter to speed whether your elbow is higher than your hand or not during the out-of-the-water recovery. but keeping that elbow high when in the water, anchoring that elbow in place, near the surface, rotating your forearm so that it's perpendicular to the water, and then really the whole arm, from the shoulder, is included during the propulsive phase.

if you look at basically every swimmer since hackett, who swims anything longer than 400 meters, you'll see that stroke. but swimming is the only activity in triathlon where good form doesn't come naturally, instinctively. you have to unlearn instinctive form and replace it with adopted form.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thank you for doing this Dan (and others contributing). I'll go ahead and open myself up for ridicule. In watching back these videos I can see immediately see several glaring issues. Head too high (it feels natural to me, and I've recently started working on getting it lower after years like this). Stroke rate is about my default, but would like to get it faster. When I try to increase the stroke rate it seems my already crappy stroke technique gets worse. My high elbow / EVF is almost non-existent. When I try to do drills for EVF and then transition them into full stroke, I flatten out my body rotation...a rotation that is probably too little already. My most recent assessments are: 7'49" for 400m and 3'46" for 200m. For distance I'm around a 2:00/100 pace.

I know what I'm supposed to do and look like, however I totally don't know how it feels to do it right, or what drills I should do, in what order, to get that feel to "click" and take hold to become my new normal. It's almost like I need someone to dumb it down to my level of swimming and understanding, and say "Do this drill this many times per week, for this many weeks until (this problem) is solved. Then start doing this drill for this long." etc, etc. What I think I'm doing, what I feel like is happening in the water, and what I'm seeing in the videos are worlds apart.

I hope the video links works as I'm somewhat techno challenged.
















Warmest regards,
Craig

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"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

you are doing many things right. somebody better than i is going to have to take a crack at this. but i will mention one thing i see, or think i see. your hand doesn't drift down very far, honestly, during its extend phase. for example, you take mr freeze, i like his kick over yours. snappy, gets thrust, he kicks with a purpose. but your extend phase is better. which some people call the glide phase, but then they get shit from the purists who say, "gliding implies you're not doing anything during that part of the stroke cycle, but you're in fact actively involved, so, don't say glide." whatever.

your hand doesn't drop as much as mr freeze's hand. that's what he's got to work on, for starters. this is the hard part, and you've got this mostly licked. then comes the part that should be easier for you, and this is - from what i can see - where you fail. your elbow is relatively high once you start your pull. good. but the active joint here is the elbow, and there's no action there. everything for you happens at the shoulder. at the moment you're done extending and you're ready to commence the pull, you have to get that forearm perpendicular to the water and that requires a bend at the elbow.

grip it and rip it, as the golfers say, but some swimmers and coaches have appropriated this term because you can't rip it until you grip it and your problem isn't the rip. it's the grip. you, like mr freeze, are muscled and capable. so. imagine you're in a pool where the water sits below the deck. if i ask you to get your body next to the wall, and hoist yourself up so that you're resting on your arm - just one arm - and that arm is flat on the deck of the pool, is your arm going to be straight? i suspect not. it'll be bent at the elbow. you'll notice that your entire forearm, and at some point even your upper arm, is perpendicular to your body. if you translate that to the water, that's the grip. that's the pulling surface. you're fully perpendicular to the water now.

look at this GTN video.



so, this guy's the expert. and, a very good swimmer. however, besides what some might criticize as excessive rotation (this is what folks talk about when they mention over-rotation, which is distinct from over-reaching), you'll note that he has about the same amount of downward drift during the catch phase as do you.

the difference is that when he commences the pull, he's focused on presenting the largest possible pulling surface to the water, which requires a high, and bent, elbow, and he doesn't fart around trying to make an S or any of that outdated horseshit. i think you're full capable of ripping it, you just need a grip to rip. beyond what folks better capable than i might say about your stroke, this is the obvious thing that sticks out. were i you, i might consider incorporating pulling into your swim regime. so, paddles and a buoy. used together. you don't need a gigantic paddle, or a techie paddle. just a typical, midsized paddle. perhaps you're already pulling. i just wonder whether feeling the pressure on that paddle, directly, for as long as you can keep that pressure on the paddle, might help you get a feel for the water you're trying to pull yourself past.

look at the grant hackett video above. then look at any of your (excellently done) videos that show your underwater stroke. look where his elbow is, and what it does. look at your elbow. that's the big difference between your stroke now and your championship stroke. according to me ;-)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thank you, Dan, for taking the time to provide this guidance. I was pleasantly surprised you were able to find anything good with my stroke, as I think I'm a fairly shit swimmer. I guess when one watches a ton of videos of "perfect swimming," it's easy to feel like a fraud in comparison. Your comments are extremely encouraging.

I currently do ZERO pulling, as my training program hasn't called for it in the prescribed drills / sets. I will watch the GTN video you attached over and over, and incorporate paddles into each swim session, regardless of whether on the day's workout or not.

I'm eager to read any input others may have.

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"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

i didn't say you weren't a fairly shit swimmer ;-) you may well be that! but you have overcome a lot of the problems that take a lot of time to fix, and that's why i can imagine you not being a shit swimmer very much longer. when i see you swim i think of what the mindset would be. the thing to focus on. i would like to see you stretch, really stretch, without pulling your body out of line, during the extend phase. you might want to work on one other small thing, and the paddles will help. slightly change the aspect of your hand during the extend phase, so that the water hits your hand straight on, maybe even angle your hand very slightly up, so that you get a bit of lift. right now your hand is angled down, so that the water hits your hand and pushes it down.

and then you grip the water, with your fingertips, hands, forearms, as soon as you're able to get your forearm against the water. then just yank back. see if that's not what grant hackett is doing. the buoy, feet together, will keep your body in line (because you'll fishtail if you do anything to pull your body out of line). the paddle will help you feel the water you're pulling.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

LOL. Fairly shit, but fixable. I can accept that.

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"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

At the risk of taking up too much of folks' time for me, I was back at the pool today and recorded again - just from the side this time, since that's the angle that seemed to produce the most feedback. With your feedback from last time, I:

• compared my movements to the visual references provided
• did some visualizing of the different movements you described while on my run this morning
• used StretchCordz yesterday during my strength routine, and focused on the changes to my catch and pull you all described
• tried to bring changes into the water today

Felt like I did my stroke differently in the pool but the video mostly suggests otherwise. I think I got about 10 good strokes in the hour of swimming today. So, progress!

Continued focus: stop dropping elbow -> instead, create a long pull from the front with earlier and continued vertical forearm; chest not parallel to water surface -> head is also up, which is dropping feet too.

it takes a long time to get the part of the stroke down that takes place in front of the shoulders. you are not "long" in your stroke and by that i mean you don't have a long extend phase. you're not catching enough water; not pulling enough water; and you've got to pull a lot of water with one arm to allow you to extend with the other arm.

fortunately, everything else is good. the only thing you need to fix is the thing that makes you fast. other people, they need to fix other things in order to get the point you're now at. so, there's that.

there are the typical drills that will or would help you. catch-up drill. you don't get to begin the pull with one hand until the other hand has entered the water. 6k switch. both these drill are going to be very hard for you, and awkward, because they require you to do 3 things you're not doing: 1). keep your hand near the surface during the extend; 2). bend your elbow during the pull; 3). present your forearm perpendicular to the water you're pulling and the direction you're going.

during the catch-up drill think about how much water you can grab with your whole arm, and pull straight back. this means bending your elbow. go back and look at that video of grant hackett. look at the angle in his elbow, and look at yours.

you're the kind of swimmer who'll make a lot of progress quickly if we can fix that part of your stroke that begins at the catch and continues until your hand is about at your ear. the rest of it, the finish, your hand's exit from the water, recovery, all that will take care of itself once we get that first part of the stroke down.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

If I've managed it, this still (from the image of the video before it starts playing) - see post below !!) is a good illustration of what Dan is talking about- your arm is still straight even though it's gone about 45 degrees from horizontal. Yet there's no bend in the elbow. It's like a windmill arm.

One way my coach likes to relate it is getting out of the pool - you don't do that with your arms straight in front of you horizontal and your body 3ft away from the poolside - you get your weight over the hand by bending your elbow them pushing up.

(I picture it as being able to swim with water that is under 2ft deep, without dragging my fingers on the rocks at the bottom - keep the elbow bent and high (closer to water surface) whilst pushing the water backwards with a vertical forearm and vertical hand)

I watched a couple videos that both compared the arms positions to that of getting out of the pool. I'll be mindful of that when I'm in the pool next time.

Thanks,
Craig

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"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

Holy frustrating fishtailing Batman. I swam this morning with paddles, banded ankles, and pull buoy. I look like a very slow salmon. Kinda demoralizing. It's much more pronounced during my left arm's pull. I'm sure it's due to my not pulling straight back, so I have to figure out how to fix that, and what it feels like to indeed pull straight back rather than angled in or out I'm not sure which I do (angled in or out) to cause the legs to fishtail left on my left arm pull.

ETA: this was done as 16x50m with another 800m freestyle.

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"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

Here's another view of the same thing, but from the head on shot instead. As you are pulling, you might pretend that you're trying to run your thumb from your nipples and down your ribs to your hip. You want you hand underneath your body, not outside of it.


Vs mr smooth

Very enlightening. Another great example of what I think I'm doing, and what I'm actually doing are two different things. Mr. Smooth is still flat when his arm is in that position. It makes me wonder if I'm also rotating too early. I'll have to go back and watch my own videos. Thanks.

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"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

Try thinking about it a bit differently. The whole point of the stroke is to optimize the amount of pulling directly back you are doing. Every deviation from your forearm and hand moving in a straight line (both horizontally ("front-to-back") and laterally ("side-to-side")) detracts from that. You basically plant your hand/forearm as quickly as you can after the catch (Grant Hackett does it faster than anyone else), and your body rotates to engage the best muscles for the job at any given point during the pull. You rotate onto the side of your extended arm to engage the strong lat muscle on that side; you rotate off that side to prepare for the other arm's equivalent motion.

The straighter your pull, the less your legs will splay. When I focus on keeping my pull as straight as possible, I can feel that my ankles are never more than six inches apart.

Recognizing that what you are doing is not what you think you are doing is a great first step.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Awesome. I'm going to incorporate some catch-up, 6/1/6, and 6/3/6 drills to try to help me focus on getting that good anchor and pulling it STRAIGHT rearwards.

Thanks,
Craig

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"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

1. it shouldn't be demoralizing. what depresses me is when somebody swims kind of slow, but there is no obvious stroke deficiency (that i can find). in your case, rejoice! once you fix this, instant speed.

2. my guess: it has nothing to do with your pull. it has to do with how you execute taking a breath. rather than rolling like a log, you're twisting at the waist.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman