Barnwerx has come a long way!!!

The third segment, with the LG medium helmet looks best to me. Watching the video, I actually thought that was the smaller helmet, it wasn't until I went back and re-read your post that I saw it was the larger of the two LG's. It must be the way it fits along your back, it just gives a smaller appearance...which I would think would be faster.

Btw, I pick up my R3 on Saturday :-)

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Portside Athletics Blog

Can't you whistle or sing a little song next time?

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Now THAT'S a great looking bike. Of course, I'm talking about the yellow P2K hanging from the ceiling.... classic.

Position looks alright. You look like you're rocking a bit side-to-side, and it looks like you're sliding up onto your elbows. But than again, I'm a dumbass when it comes to fit, so take the observations for what they are.

-Brian

Last time you posted you were in the barn wearing your underwear, geeky plaid boxers at that. LOL!! That was post of the year.

You're in your early 50's and still set one of the fastest times at any TT or any tri team event. Kinda like Lance, I can't believe people would dare to critisize his position (or yours) based upon performance.

But BTW, looks damn good to me.

"I always wear a skinsuit and aero helmet when riding the rollers. It makes me go faster."

Well, now we know the secret of your success.:-)

Kinda like Lance, I can't believe people would dare to critisize his position (or yours) based upon performance.


Wow. How much do I owe you for that?

Oops ... hold on. I've got a text message coming in from Ashley

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Bob C.

The "science" on any matter can never be settled until every possible variable is taken into account.

Why does it look like you are a midget on your road bike?

Sweet TT position but it hurt my eyes to see you on your roadie, like you are five years old and riding your dad's bike :-)

VHS is so '80's

Andrew

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C'mon legs run faster!
Being fast on a crappy bike is cool
Fueled by Guinness, Tuborg, Anchor Steam and Creemore Springs

"Wow. How much do I owe you for that? "

Aw shucks. Just buy me a beer next time I'm in your neck of the woods.

Sweet TT position but it hurt my eyes to see you on your roadie, like you are five years old and riding your dad's bike :-)

It's funny you say that. I won't say that was my exact reaction, but it's not far off. That's pretty much the position I've been riding forever and, while I don't road race per se, I train with Cat. 1 and Cat. 2 folks and hold my own fairly well. So it seems to have worked for me. But this is the first time I've ever seen any type of photo of me on my road bike and my reaction was ... yuk.

I have a long torso relative to my legs, so I need a bike with a long top tube. I've never gone the custom route, so I've always ended up going with a larger frame size to meet the top tube requirements. And even at that, I've got a 12cm stem on there.

I guess this winter I'll leave the TT bike fit alone and see if I can work on dialing in the road bike.

Thanks for the comment.

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Bob C.

The "science" on any matter can never be settled until every possible variable is taken into account.

You can tell by your TT position that you can ride but if I saw you on your roadie I would snicker, it just doesn't look right.

Of course, I'm a 215lb guy on a TT bike so not much is right about that!

You will still look sweet when you blow by some poser.
Andrew

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C'mon legs run faster!
Being fast on a crappy bike is cool
Fueled by Guinness, Tuborg, Anchor Steam and Creemore Springs

Is your seat too low on your road bike?

Is your seat too low on your road bike?

I never would have believed that it was too low. And I never would have believed I'd read those words here on Slowtwitch. But since I shot that video this afternoon, my online research into road bike fit is suggesting to me that a low saddle is part of the problem.

I did a really hard fifty miler on Tuesday and, afterward, the tops and insides of my thighs were quite sore. I've read in a couple of places today that that's a sign of too low a saddle. I'm gonna take it up some and go forward with it a bit tomorrow.

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Bob C.

The "science" on any matter can never be settled until every possible variable is taken into account.

Yeah - hard to argue with success Bob! TT position looks spot on with the M LG Rocket in my eyes as well. Road bike position, well ... ;-)

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Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Given that you've got a set of those InSide Ride rollers, why do you ride the TT bike with a fork stand?

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Now we need frontal video's too of course Bob ...

From the side, the LG med looks very good. OTOH, if it's sticking out 1/2" from your ears that may not be so good.

Road bike: seat probably low, bend your elbows :)

Have you lost weight?

Now we need frontal video's too of course Bob ...

Will do ... eventually. I'm gonna be busy working on the road bike fit thing for a while. ;-)

From the side, the LG med looks very good. OTOH, if it's sticking out 1/2" from your ears that may not be so good.

I think it probably does a better job covering my ears. But the video will tell.

Road bike: seat probably low, bend your elbows :)

I'm thinking I'll raise the saddle and I've got a stem that's about 1.5 cms shorter I might try.

Have you lost weight?

I stopped going to the gym about two months ago before one of my big races and haven't made it back. I've lost some upper body muscle. I've been on the bike more. My percent body fat is unchanged but my weight has gone down. I'm guessing my power to weight ratio on the bike is probably up. My clothes are hangin' off me.

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Bob C.

The "science" on any matter can never be settled until every possible variable is taken into account.

i think both your positions look excellent.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Given the extreme toe-down foot position at the bottom of the pedal stroke, I think that you may need to lower your saddle on both your TT and road bikes. I also think you appear too "scrunched" on your TT bike - such a short reach might make sense if you were sitting more upright/racing only long distances, but not given your torso angle and typical events.

Bob

I will defer the position comments to the better 'eyes' on the board. But can you comment on how you like your InSide Ride Rollers? Do they perform as advertised?

I'm really thinking about getting some for the winter months.

Thanks

DB

"Given the extreme toe-down foot position at the bottom of the pedal stroke, I think that you may need to lower your saddle on both your TT and road bikes."

you'll note, however, that his knee angles are quite fine on both bikes, and his toe-down pedal stroke is about the same on both bikes. were he to have made a mistake on seat height, it would be the exact same mistake on both positions, and that's atypical.

would you have given the same suggestion to marco pantani and jacques anquetil? can some riders just be toe pointers, even if you and i are not?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

But your knee angle only changes when the saddle is much too high or much too low - in between, it's the angle of the ankle that changes to compensate for changes in seat height.

In Reply To:

and his toe-down pedal stroke is about the same on both bikes. were he to have made a mistake on seat height, it would be the exact same mistake on both positions, and that's atypical.

I don't know why you would believe that, given that regardless of whether one sets their saddle height by feel or using a tape measure, you're going to use the same approach on both bikes.[/reply] would you have given the same suggestion to marco pantani and jacques anquetil?[/reply]
Yes, I would have made that suggestion.


Such an extreme toe-down position would probably be more efficient only for individuals whose angle ROM is well outside the normal range.

"But your knee angle only changes when the saddle is much too high or much too low - in between, it's the angle of the ankle that changes to compensate for changes in seat height."

what you're saying is that as you raise your saddle, it's a given that you seek out the right knee angle and maintain it; that your ankle angle is the variable and this is what changes. i think in some cases you're right. in my experience, in most cases it's not that way. i find that the knee ankle is typically more "in play" as the saddle is raised and lowered. the fact that he's got the "right" knee angle (and i think his knee ankle is quite good in both positions) tells me that there's at least an even chance that his ankle angle is natural. you may decide you want to coach him out of that ankle angle, and in this case, fine. but prior to such coaching, the saddle height he's chosen is correct.

"I don't know why you would believe that, given that regardless of whether one sets their saddle height by feel or using a tape measure, you're going to use the same approach on both bikes."

again, this is just my experience, but i don't think many people alter their road positions to find their TT positions. they start from scratch. you'd have to therefore botch both positions pretty much exactly, and i don't find that this often happens.

>> would you have given the same suggestion to marco pantani and jacques anquetil?
> Yes, I would have made that suggestion.

pantani could've just changed his seat height instead of taking drugs, and gotten the same results? ;-)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Then your experience runs contrary to the published scientific literature on the topic, as well as, e.g., the experience of places like the Boulder Center for Sports Medicine.


On the contrary, when people set up their bikes themselves they almost invariably gravitate towards a position that is too high instead of too low, as, e.g., the numerous photos posted to this forum demonstrate (indeed, this was one of Eddie B's well-known complaints when he first came to the US). So, it makes perfect sense that even if someone started entirely from scratch when setting up their TT position (which, given our kinesthetic sense, is actually impossible), they'd be like to "botch it almost exactly the same way".


I see that Frank been giving you lessons on how to put words in someone's mouth. ;-)

"Then your experience runs contrary to the published scientific literature on the topic, as well as, e.g., the experience of places like the Boulder Center for Sports Medicine."

there has actually been a study of what angle -- knee or ankle -- riders favor during a fit session? i'd like to see that one, i'm sure you'll provide the citation. as for BCSM, they and a disagree on a variety of things. not that we necessarily disagree on this. its lead fitter was here getting FIST certified last year, and there was no mention of that (we spend a lot of time on seat height here). maybe you're right in what they think, but that opinion did not surface in the FIST workshop.

"On the contrary, when people set up their bikes themselves they almost invariably gravitate towards a position that is too high instead of too low"

that is neither my experience, nor the experience of the fitters who come here. i typically ask for a show of hands on that very topic, and the majority indicate an experience other than yours.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I really appreciate this dialog.

My road bike position has evolved over time. I've thought about it a lot in the last 24 hours ... probably more than I've thought about it in the last 10 years combined. I'm sure it evolved like a golf swing. I started with a good position that I derived through research. Then I tweaked this or that over the years until ... voila ... I have what I have and it may or may not be all screwed up. I will say this. I rode this bike (well actually, this position on another frame of identical geometry) in a hard, very hilly century about six weeks ago and couldn't believe how comfortable I was the entire way. I rolled in just under 5 hours and felt like I could have kept going. I was in a group for some of the time, so riding the hoods a lot. Even over the final 30 miles when I was pretty much leading the charge the terrain had me going from drops to hoods and back a lot. But the other day, I did a solo 50 miler where I was in the drops nearly the whole time (and riding pretty hard) and I started to have some low back pain about 35 miles in. I'm wondering if that's to be expected if you ride the drops that long, or if it's a sign of a fit issue.

Regarding my TT position. Last January I had a Wobblenaught fitting. It was on a different bike but I went in with a position quite similar to what's in the video here. That fitting resulted in a spacer being added under my stem and my saddle being lowered and moved back rather significantly. The moved back part was a concession to UCI as I had nationals in mind. The lowering part was a function of what their fit program said based on my body dimensions. The guy who did the fitting (a world and national age group TT champion) tried to encourage me to work on locking (my word, not his) my ankle into a more fixed, 90-degree angle.

I trainined and raced on that for the next six weeks or so and never liked it. I didn't like my times, either. I have a relatively large "cottage of wattage" and I felt like the lower saddle took that out of the equation. I have freaky-enormous calves. I know a lot of people say they aren't involved in the pedal stroke, but apparently they are in mine. I concluded that, while the Wobblenaught fit might work for a lot of folks, it failed to account for some of my peculiar "ass"ets. So I undid all that and have been much happier with my results ever since.

One last thing that I think applies to both bikes. On the TT bike on rollers with a fork mount, resistance is pretty low even in the hardest gears. When I'm applying power out on the road, I get out on the tip of the saddle pretty good and I'm quite comfortable sustaining that position. (Dr. C ... I've considered shortening my bars 'cuz if anything, it feels to me like I have more reach than I need.) That effectively reduces my saddle height a bit. On the road bike, that was the first time I ever had that bike on the rollers. (I usually use on old beater bike.) I wasn't used to it and I never really relaxed into that ride. I think it might look a little different if I rode for 20 minutes or so and got comfortable, then did the video.

Just some feedback on the feedback. Thanks for viewing and responding!
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Bob C.

The "science" on any matter can never be settled until every possible variable is taken into account.