Is he saying that we should strike with the heel first not even midfoot?

Yes. That surprised me too. While he can explain it much better than me, he said that heel first striking does not cause deceleration if your upper body is forward, your bent knee is in front of or directly over your foot, and your foot rolls fluidly. Your quad, instead of your (weaker) calf absorbs the road shock better.

That's quite interesting. I actually attended a triathlon clinic this past weekend, where Eric Sorenson talked alot about running mechanics and form. Though I don't think he actually referred to it as the Pose method, much of his talk centered around a mid-foot strike directly under your center of motion, high turnover (90, ring a bell?), a slight forward lean. He would argue that a heel-striker with long strides is prone to shin splints, and that the Pose method utilitizes the body's own shock-absorption system. A high turnover, with shorter strides is key though (as you know). At any rate, he had a "sample workout" for this method and IIRC, it takes a good 6 weeks to build up your calf strength--to then be able to do some faster running. How long/slow did you build up?? Good luck on the road to recovery. Shin splints knocked me out of training for NYC marathon (I do happen to have a longER stride and am a heel striker)....I know the feeling. Good luck on the road to recovery.

Thanks for the info. I've finally decided to get serious about improving my running and reluctantly admit that tri isn't just a serious TT with a warm up swim beforehand and a cool down jog afterwards. Been thinking about attending a Pose seminar. So I'd certainly be interested to hear what others have to say about this.

Don't know exactly what your PT did, but I'd treat it the same way with deep massage and ultrasound. So would a million other chiros or PT's. Sounds like a fairly standard treatment for this kind of problem. Being a world class runner however, he likely has a greater familiarity with these injuries than most of us.

admit that tri isn't just a serious TT with a warm up swim beforehand and a cool down jog afterwards.

Is that what an epiphany is?

------------------------------

I was always under the impression that true pose running could only be done while running fast for short distances. Athletes are always taught to run on their toes (because it keeps the eyes from bouncing up and down all over the place) when chasing down a ball (baseball, football, etc), and it allows for more agile running.

Once long distance is brought into the equation the strike shifts from a "toe" strike to a midfoot, etc. Based on what I've read and tried that always made the most sense to me.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

We are getting into some fine distinctions that I am not really qualified to make. I don't think Mark was advocating "heel striking with a long stride" as is commonly used pejoratively on this forum. That implies running with your weight behind your foot. He told me you should land on your heel with your weight forward and agreed that high cadence is preferable.

I did not do any special calf strengthening before I started running the Soernson/Pose way. I did, however, run that way (without trying a much faster cadence) all last year with no serious problem. It was only when I combined the mid-foot/toe strike with the higher cadence that I got hurt.

Too many conflicting opinions in this sport. Sometimes, it is tough to know what to believe.

"Too many conflicting opinions in this sport. Sometimes, it is tough to know what to believe."

That's a big problem. The Internet has opened up volumes of information to us that we get caught in a wirlwind of information and often missinformation. There's a ton of advice, plans, etc and it's easy to get tied up comparing yourself to others - pushing when you shouldn't be, doing crap just cause others are doing it.

I love all the information but I follow one simple rule; I listen to my body and ultimately do what it asks.

---

---

"your horse is too high" - tigerchik

www.chirunning.com

A much better explanation of how to run in the "Pose-type" running style.

I went to the Pose Tech weekend workshop (because of bad IT Band pain) and just didn't get it 100%. I did change from a heel striker to running on the front of my foot. But after the workshop I had that calf pain, bad. So I did some more research and found chirunning. Danny Dreyer paints a much better picture of how to run pain free in the pose than DR. R does. Since I studied that, no IT band pain and no calf pain.

Check it out.

Hid, you are absolutely dead on.

The Pose Method is interesting in that it does provide a viable model for improving just about anyone's efficiency on the run. However, when that is applied to experienced athletes of varied backgrounds, the new geometry can create absolute havoc with the supporting musculature.

I think it will be (if it hasn't already) proven out that it takes a lot of time to develop the smaller, supporting muscles (like the soleus) to the point where they can provide adequate protection. Many of us have years of running within a particular geometry. Slight changes can take use into a whole new range of motion, not unlike changing angles from a cycling perspective, but now we have added a weight bearing (while fatigued) element.

I like what the Pose Method says and demonstrates, but apply with caution.

What's interesting about the Pose method is that it talks about several aspects of sound running biomechanics. But the ONLY thing people get is... run on the balls of the feet! So what's supposed to be the endpoint of the method, turns into the first thing people pick up.

---

-
"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

This is pretty interesting. I started doing the pose method last summer and was never able to completely land on the balls of my feet. Instead I was landing pretty much with my whole foot with most of my weight on the balls of my feet. What this seemed to do was make a stomping motion that rattled my ankles. It was much easier and faster to run this way but I seemed to hurt myself. I found that if I rolled my feet from heel to toe while keeping my body weight forward and over my feet, I felt a lot better.

Finally last November, my left ankle started to hurt enough to take a week off of running. When I came back to it I started running with my hands just above my hips. Some people call it running pretty. What I found is that I stopped stomping and started kind of floating along as I ran. I also started to bend my knees a little and used them as shock absorbers. This made things better still. My ankle pain got a little better but it was still there, just the left ankle.

Yesterday I saw a sports medicine doctor about my ankle pain. (I've been looking for a way to write about it). I was concered that I had stress fractures in my ankle but that was ruled out from the x-rays. The doctor said that I have the bone density of a 20 year old and I'm 36. He claimed that an inflamed tendon was putting pressure on the posterier tibial nerve and that I should be taking anti-inflamatories. Another thing that he said was very unexpected for me. He noticed that I had very flat feet and recommended that I get shoes with a lot more arch support. Enough support that it would feel like a big hump in my shoe for me. What this would do is support the middle of my foot and not let the tendon supporting that part of my foot to stretch and squeeze the nerve. It sounds very closley related to Plantar Fasciitis. In fact, he checked for that too.

Upon hearing this, my ideas about the pose method have changed somewhat. I believe in keeping your foot strike under your body but I am moving away from trying to land mid-foot anymore and will favor rolling my feet heel to toe and try to glide along as weightless as I can.

These are just my experiences and I realize that everyone is different.

jaretj

Q:

Can anyone find anything wrong with the following statement pulled directly from their website in the FAQ section?



I don’t understand how gravity can help us run. I thought the only way to deal with gravity was to push off the ground, fighting it. Can you clarify?[/url] A: Gravity does not exist in a vacuum. The only time its sole impact is to pull an object straight down is when that object is perpendicular to the ground. If the object is not perpendicular, gravity will pull the object down, but the object will go down at an angle. In our case, the angle is “forward” since that’s the way we’re leaning. When we remove our foot from support, it allows our body to fall, and we fall forward. The next support foot touches the ground and interrupts that fall. Remove the support, and we fall again. If we did not have gravity, we would not be running, we’d be floating. Without gravity we cannot go forward unless we can push off from something directly behind us. The more we lean, and the more quickly we can remove support, the more quickly we fall. i.e., run. If you use very slow motions to go through Pose motion, or even walking motions, keeping your feet under you, not in front of you, you’ll see that all forward movement is a series of controlled falls. We cannot fall without gravity. We don’t need to fight it. We just modify our motion to maximize its benefits.

---

---------------------------------------------------------

"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."

After reading "Gravity does not exist in a vacuum" I just couldn't bring myself to read the rest of it...

---

-
"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

> Gravity does not exist in a vacuum.

Awesome!

Dre'

---

-----------
...

You win!

Making a statement like "Gravity does not exist in a vacuum" when it is absurd and has no bearing on the initial question in the first place just makes them look like they have no idea what they are talking about. I just thought it was funny...

---

---------------------------------------------------------

"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."

Somebody get NASA on the phone, Dr. Romanov has found a much more efficient way for training astronauts to deal with zero gravity - just put them in a vacuum dummies!

---

---------------------------------------------------------

"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."

Cheaper too.

---

---

"your horse is too high" - tigerchik

This is Dr R's main problem. Communication. At his clinic he talks that way all the time. He needs to learn to teach line the Total Immersion guy, Terry Laughlin. At TI, Terry doesn't care how you currently swim. He teaches you the basics of every motion as if each person had never swam before. At Pose, Dr. R says... here, run like this. No, no, no... like this. It is a very difficult concept to get especially the way it was taught. I am finally running pain free (and quicker), but it takes a good 6 mos to "get". I "got" the TI thing immediately.

All this being said, I still am slow as sh--. But I have fun.

Were you pushing hard off your toes, or pulling up with your hamstrings like pose suggests. If you pull up with your hamtrings, there is almost no load on the calf-achilles-plantar fascia system. They truely get used as shock absorbers that you roll over as you "fall forward". As another reader suggests though, your point of impact has to be under your c of g.

In defense of the "pose method" consider that the forefoot strike it advocates, as Romanov will tell you, mimics the natural footstrike of the bare foot. thus, it has the "argument from design" on its side. The human body is not "designed" to be a heel striker b/c this is only possible with the help of massive amounts of cushioning from heavy shoes (interestingly not found on light racing flats, which most fast runners use and which are not intended to cushion heel strikes). Unsurprisingly, people who are heel strikers or just novices who consciously try to become forefoot strikers may experience calf soreness due to new running style and the new stresses it involves. Its like if you hit the weights room after a big layoff and do 3x12 bench presses at some eye-popping weight. Your pecs will let you know about it the day after. In switching to forefoot strike the calf may get used to its new role or it may become injured, depending on its strength/resiliency, and the savvy of the individual in terms of knowing when to stop and when to continue. IMO, Pose method is the running equivalent of TI. Both have their proponents and detractors. You are more likely to like and benefit from pose (and TI) if you have no history with running (or swimming), are not particularly fast or economical in running (or swimming), and happen to respond well to structured and intellectualized "systems" consisting of specific drills and concepts designed to babystep you to a faster and more efficient run (or swim). Unfortunately, because running involves so much more impact on the body than does swimming, the risk in trying any new technique is greater. Our current running style may be damn ugly but its our run and our body is used to it! Accordingly, people starting to transition to a forefoot strike system for longer distance running also need incorporate high cadence (180 strikes/min), relaxed arms and torso, and "running on eggshells" concepts to minimize the stress to calves and knees. (All of which are pose method correlates and, surprise, are also hallmarks of many elite runners.)

Bottom line is you should seek to run the entirety of your chosen distance like a cheetah and not like a 3-legged moose with a hangover. (a lot of people can start out looking like the former and cross the finish line looking like the latter.)

Disclaimer: I know nothing.

this is not unexpected.. see a protracted and vehement discussion with Mr Tibbs (in his earlier incarnation of customerjon) and kategt in an earlier thread, on POSE and the kind of injuries it was likely to produce.

Note that the only scientific study of POSE to date, comparing it with the natural gait (heel to midfoot strike, as practiced by human beings since the dawn of time), concludes only that:
"The possibility that such gait differences could be associated with different types and frequencies of running injuries should be evaluated in controlled clinical trails."
Not that POSE reduces injuries, only that it gives you different injuries.. Read the extract at
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14767250&dopt=Abstract

johnthesavage does a fine job of propagating the POSE nonsense, but none of it is true. To paraphrase Samuel Johnson, "This theory is both good and original. Unfortunately the parts of it that are good are not original, and the parts that are original are not good".

I used to belong to the same running club as Mark Plaatjies, twenty years ago. He's one of the good guys.

---

"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview

"...comparing it with the natural gait (heel to midfoot strike, as practiced by human beings since the dawn of time)"

Doug - When was the last time you ran barefoot? Try it sometime and see what part of your foot touches the ground first. If you use a "heel to midfoot strike" barefoot, try it again on concrete. I'm not particularly wedded to Pose (TM), but it would seem to me beyond cavil that the human foot is designed for forefoot strike. Pose folk like to cite to the ethiopian doode (i forget his name) who ran and won a marathon in bare feet. What kind of foot strike do you think he used? Whether this "argument from design" should hold any weight given the advent of stability shoes and gel cushioning is another matter. I happen to think nature still wins out but reasonable people (like you) will disagree.

The fact of the matter though, and here we all agree, is that consciously trying to adopt any new running style can be hazardous to your health. This can be especially true in Pose because a lot of people focus on "toe-strike" and "heel to butt snap" (this is a paraphrase of how Shredder described his attempt at Pose running.) "Toe-strike" is of course an unfortunate misnomer - what we are talking about here is fore-foot strike. The heel to butt thing is a Pose concept related to muscle elasticity and trying to harness it on stride recovery to increase efficiency. However, IMO while this is a good drill it is more akin to plyometrics and should not be the focus of any longer running session.

As far as injury prevention goes, the bottom line is that folks trying consciously to "learn how to run" using any concept or idea MUST be HYPER-AWARE of the stress this will have on calves, knees, ligaments and elsewhere. The unfortunate irony, of course, is that those most likely to feel the need to "learn how to run" are also those least likely to be in tune with the biomechanical limitations of their body. So it goes.

I switched to POSE-type running a while back: while 'in season' everything is ok, when I first switched and after the 'winter x-training break' it took me quite a few weeks to get my soleus muscles back into shape.

I do believe it's better for my knees/itb/shins to run this way (never had itb or shin splints since switching, knock on wood) but it does seem to take a bit longer than one might think to get the soleus muscles 'up to speed'.

Hi guys, I´ve been trying the pose method for about 8 months now, and it has been a very difficult road, I buy the book and the DVD, and I even buy my RC150 New Balance racing flats, at first mi calves were suffering a lot, mainly because I try not to get down on my training miles (which actually were/are not that much), however even with the drills and the theory, the first month and a half my calves were very sore, later on as I started to feel more confortable i hurt my calves (two muscle stretchs in different ocassions in both calves), but I believe it was mainly because I was pushing off and I also failed to warm up correctly, however after this injuries, I started to get more cautious about the method and I started to warm up better, since then I´ve been training without problems and injuries, and right now my long runs are about 2 hours (20 kms, i know super slow), all the time in pose without problems and with the racing flats, I´m not trying to advocate for Pose, but after a while it seems to be working for me, I always feel less beat up than when I was heel striking, just today I train with a new pair of racing flats (Brooks T3 racer) and since they have a little more cushion on them I feel more uncorfotable than with the NB flats with almost not cushion. Right now its working for me but it hasn´t been easy, and I´m not very sure I´m doing perfect pose.

Jaime

Tri-Rookie