Mavic Cosmic's

Spinergy Tiliums

everbody and there dog runs mavic.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Neither company has stellar customer service, but I'd go with the Cosmics. Otherwise you will lay in bed at night wondering when your pawl retainer clips are going to break.

Are you talking about the Cosmics (box rim), Cosmic Elites (30mm aluminum rim), or Cosmic Carbones (~45mm aero rim)? Either way I'd go with the Cosmics (whichever) as well. There is a reason everybody and their mother rides these things. They've been building wheels for the longest time. They have the smoothest hubs in the business - bar none.

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Animal!!!

The wheel with the box rim is the Cosmos, not the Cosmic. And yes, Mavic has really nice hubs.

oh yeah - my bad

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Animal!!!

I may be just a bit biased but I thought I would at least lay out some facts. If anyone from Mavic wants to dispute these then feel free to set me straight.

Cosmic Carbone front 885 grams, rear 1110 grams( from Mavic website)

Tilium front 690 grams, rear 850 grams (I just weighed a pair off the assembly line)



Cosmic Carbome 16 spoke front 20 rear, radial non drive (only 5 driving spokes)

Tilium 16 spokes front, 20 rear crossed on both sides (10 driving spokes = better torsional stiffnes and quicker acceleration, less windup)

Cosmic $1149 per pair

Tilium $999 per pair ( you can buy some sweet tires, tubes and a cogset with the $150)

Spinergy wheels are all hand built in Carlsbad CA, we have several triathletes and Ironman veterans on staff and we are the official wheel of Ironman, not that it makes our wheels better but shows our commitment to the sport.

Mavic wheels are built in Romania, I believe, and everything I have heard(we used to employ their former marketing director) is that they view triathlon as a nescessary evil that sucks energy away from real cycling events like road racing and mountian biking.

I am surprised that everyone is jumping to the Mavic side on this forum, when was the last time you saw anyone from Mavic at a triathlon? I know we have had major issues with customer service over the years but we are working hard to fix that and that is one of the reasons I follow this forum. Trying to clear up any problems out there.

I will probably be sued by Mavic now in a Canadian court for slander.



Paul Cusick

Spinergy

A word and a number: Zipp 909s.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

To be honest - I don't ride either of those wheels for triathlon (rode and trained on Mavic for road-racing, that's where my loyalty came from). I ride Nimble, but the choice was between the two. All good points your brought up - especially the economics. The weight and wind-up (as impressive as they are - don't get me wrong) don't seem to be as huge an issue (I'm learning) in triathlons as they do in road-racing where there is a lot of accelerations. Seems like aero is king. Do you have a comparison (and this isn't a challenge, just a curious question) between the Carbones and the Tiliums? It seems that's how you get everyone on your side (well, that and the coin).

You can't be sued for slander as slander is a false and malicious ORAL statement to damage a reputation. Libel is for the written word. And because you said that you "I believe, and everything I have heard..." makes the statement subject and you should be safe. I'm not an attorney, so don't take my legal advice.

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Animal!!!

Get the Cosmics anyway, anyone who wants to know my bad experience in the past month with Spinergy wheel failures and poor Spinergy customer service, send me a message (link at top of screen).

For libel reasons I will not post them here.

Gary

Gary,

I apologize for that delay.I agree it is unacceptable. I would like to know who your dealer is. The Xaero Lite uses a pretty standard 6000 series sealed bearing. We have thousands in stock. Dealers can also get them from any number of other suppliers. QBP sells them for $1.90 each. Even if we took 30 days, which I find unlikely unless there was some other issue with the dealer (credit, past due balance etc. ), wouldn't a good shop get you the bearing somewhere else? They made a good customer wait for 30 days for $1.90 part? It seems more and more that bike shops are avoiding service and putting it all back on the manufacturer. We get more wheels back from" pro shops" for hub adjustments, truing, bearing replacements etc. We have scematics of all the wheels on our site and we are more than happy to talk mechanics through the process over the phone but the response we get is " I would rather just send it in and have you do it" When I worked at a shop we prided ourselves on being able to fix anything. We never sent things in for repair, we would get the manuals, order the common wear and tear parts and as a last resort call for assistance. When we took on a new line, we would always ask what parts we should stock and get them with our first order. Dealers are always asking what kind of margin we offer on our products. Part of that margin is for the service they "should" provide. If we need to do all the repairs then we should sell the wheels direct to you, make more money and give you a better price. Then you can really blame us for bad service.

Gary,

why did you edit your original post?

Of the two I'd go tiliums, more comfy, more aero, (I think they look better.) I'm not knocking on the mavic, but from a tri stand point, they seem more like a glorified training wheel. Fine for road use, but if you do tri, then ride tri.

I did not want it to come back to haunt me, ala Cervelo...

this is a test we perform on all of our wheels and most of the competition's. We will be adding a video of the test to our site.

Torsional Stiffness

Test Specification #TSWS1-1

Description:



Torsional stiffness is the measure of windup a wheel exhibits under a known applied torque. Since rear wheels and disc brake wheels are the only wheels that develop high torque, they are the only ones tested in torsional stiffness. The wheel is placed in a fixture that holds either the cassette body or disc brake rigid and a known torque is applied to the wheel. The deflection of the wheel, due to the torque, is measured at different load levels. The data is placed in a computer program and the torsional stiffness is recorded. Wheels Tor. Stiff Road Mavic - Ksyrium SSC Sl Rear 118 Shimano - WH-7700 Rear 126 Xaero Rear 269 Xaero-Lite Rear 277 SR3 Rear 229 SRX Rear 203



As you can see, more driving spokes yields better stiffness. The SRX and Xaero Lite use the same rim but the SRX was radial on the drive side like the Cosmic. It actually had 28 spokes though.

my bad, I meant to say non drive side. These tests were developed based on feedback from riders saying that they loved their Krysiriums because they accelerated so quickly. We wanted to make sure our new designs were on par with or better than "the industry standard". As far as durability goes we have another test called torque fatigue.

Torque Fatigue

Test Specification #TFBS1-2

Description:



Torque fatigue helps simulate pedaling torque or a hub mounted disc brake torque. A wheel is placed in a fixture that holds the cassette body or disc brake stationary and a known torque is applied to the wheel. The torque is cycled with one second of load and one second of relaxation. The current test specifications call for a torque of 2,400 in-lbs for 700cc wheels and 2,450 in-lbs for mountain bike wheels. The current cycle specification is 25,000 cycles without failure for all wheels.

Wheels Torq. Fat. Road Torque Fatigue Explanation Mavic - Ksyrium SSC Sl Rear 14,550 note: Broke 2 spokes on drive-side of wheel at spoke heads Shimano - WH-7700 Rear 3,150 note: Cassette body keeps slipping, can not hold the toque - test halted Xaero Rear 38,820 note: No failures occurred Xaero-Lite Rear 28,350 note: No failures occurred SR3 Rear 31,530 note: No failures occurred Mountain Mavic - Crossmax UST Disc Front 38,250 note: Failure occurred at the disc brake mount Mavic - Crossmax UST Disc Rear 19,560 note: Cassette body binding 5,760 cycles - hubshell crack 19,560 cycles Xyclone Disc Front 70,590 note: Crack observed at base of star flange at this cycle Xyclone Disc Rear 87,390 note: No failures occurred

TimeTrial.org

Jul 17, 2003, 2:56 PM

Post #3 of 4 (158 views)
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Re: Javelin Bikes? [-Tex] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

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I think the Arcole is a very nice frame and was considering it myself. My gripes (3) are the seatpost system is not on par with Cervelo and there is no down tube water bottle cage mounts for my bottle (ala John Cobbs new aer tests showing that they are indeed faster) and the fork is too heavy.

I am looking at getting a Soloist custom painted through HotTubes later this year. The Wolf fork tests as more aero than the Reynolds and weighs 335 gms, the seatpost is carbon and foil shaped and the frame is standard road geometry for my Slam position.

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Gary - http://www.timetrial.org TimeTrial.org

Aug 18, 2003, 5:41 AM

Post #17 of 19 (226 views)
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Re: Aero chainrings - do they work? Hype or benefit. [dave9t5] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

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Dave, the FSA aero rings are heavy, like 275 gms for the 54T, I had one - it shifted well but weighed twice that of the Dura Ace 54T, I went back to standard rings. I found the information about aero chainring benefits from John Cobb, who actually tested aero 'type' rings in the A&M wind tunnel. According to him, aero rings serve no aero benefit and just add weight to the crankset.

I believe that your 'bulged' chainring is marketing hype. Who thought of that one?

Gees, dont you Spinergy guys work? ...

Oh, duh, guess I should get back to work!

Hey, my own accounts and first hand opinions are OK. At least I am not making stuff up.

The point of my last post was that there may be a lot of editing to do since Javelin might not like "Not on Par......" and FSA probably won't like "Marketing Hype........" See all at the State TTT Keith

Shoot - from here on out I will refer to all bike manufacturers only as "manufacturer X" and leave out their true identities for fear of reprisal.

Unless, of course, you guys at Spinergy want to hire me as a professional web assassin to post horrible first hand accounts and stories about those terrible Mavic (oops, I mean, "Manufacturer M") wheels.

See, I knew there was a money making angle to all of this!

But really, your team will be going so fast at the TTT that I hope you have mercy on us when you pass by!! Pass close so we can leach off your draft, OK?

:')

Paul, are you aware of how strong a case you just made of why Spinergy should sell replacment parts directly to the customer rather than only through a shop? Most everyone agree with your argument that there are a lot of bad, lazy dealers out there. Why then do you force your customers to obtain parts and services through them? I'm confused.

Re: "and everything I have heard(we used to employ their former marketing director) is that they view triathlon as a nescessary evil that sucks energy away from real cycling events like road racing and mountian biking."
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Poor form, Paul. Good technical comparison of products- you should have left it at that. This comment comes off as sour grapes in my book, especially given Spinergy's reputation for customer service. I don't know about others on this forum, but as soon as someone tries to sell their product to me by bad-mouthing the competition I instantly lose all interest. It may not be libelous, but it's sure irritating.