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Good question from another thread:
a) do they think BTLE will get wide acceptance in the very near future.
b) do they think some of the bridge technology will solve the problem.
c) do they think Ant+ Power meters are not that common and most people are going by HR.
a) We strongly believe Bluetooth Smart is the future…
b) Could be for sure…
c) For sure power meters running ANT+ are the majority. No getting around that. But we’re seeing more power sensors going BT Smart, or dual chip. And also there are ANT+ > Bluetooth Bridges like the 4iiii’s Viiivo that could potentially make this a non issue anyway.
supporting for a more open ecosystem of sensors and devices
I have a 4iiii Viiiiva HR belt and from a user comment on DCR’s testreport I see that the V800 can not run the R-R, Fitness and Orthostatic test with the Viiiiva, you need a H7. The Viiiiva measures HRV, so AFAIK it should be possible.
An open ecosystem means support for sensors from other manufacturers. Are you working with 4iiii to get this fixed?
Chris, thanks for starting this thread.
I do appreciate your openness. Hopefully, like other “Official xxxxx thread” started by vendors, people will be civil and not just bash a product that seems to have huge potential.
I believe all the features will fall in place. As long as you have a quality hardware platform, software is just a matter of time.
The watch, doesn’t have the Ant+ platform, so for me, that one is riskier. Even with an infinite budget (which I don’t have) I can’t get a two legged, crank based power meter with BT.
The one thing that concerns me most is whether the bridging technology really works. If yes, maybe Ant+ is a non issue
But I get mixed messages from people that there are data drops, that multiple devices at once won’t work…
I know it’s new technology and has some bugs to be worked out, but is Polar going to test and certify it some way.
Has someone in your labs confirmed it works ?
Is 4iiii working with you guys ?
An open ecosystem means support for sensors from other manufacturers. Are you working with 4iiii to get this fixed?
We’re not working with 4iiii’s
We follow standardized Bluetooth Smart profiles for all sensors in the V800. We can really only guarantee the R-R based features in the V800 work with the Polar Bluetooth Smart HR sensors though. Mainly because even if a heart rate sensor claims to have R-R data, the quality of that data may be in question.
But I get mixed messages from people that there are data drops, that multiple devices at once won’t work…
I know it’s new technology and has some bugs to be worked out, but is Polar going to test and certify it some way.
Has someone in your labs confirmed it works ?
Is 4iiii working with you guys ?
I reworded my point above to be clear. We haven’t tested a bridge - but the concept could have potential and solve some needs.
Chris:
Love the watch. It is what I’m looking for. I have my swim training sets and master swim - so i can live without the metrics for now as the training load provides a much greater value than a watch telling me about my split. I use a pace clock for that.
- Will the upcoming power meter update for the watch make any changes to the training load on the watch or website? Does it add anything of value other than recording what power I held for the ride?
- On the recovery screen where it shows “very strained, strained, balance” - what exactly does balance represent?
- Can you give an example of what a “paid upgrade” would be?
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Will the upcoming power meter update for the watch make any changes to the training load on the watch or website? Does it add anything of value other than recording what power I held for the ride?
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On the recovery screen where it shows “very strained, strained, balance” - what exactly does balance represent?
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Can you give an example of what a “paid upgrade” would be?
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Training Load is dependent on the input - not output. What you put into the work… So no. ;0)
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Balanced means just that, not undertrained - but well recovered from a workout. Here’s a good write up on it and how it works: http://www.polar.com/us-en/support/training_load_and_recovery_status_features_in_polar_flow
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Too early to say… We’re focused right now on what we promised. We’ll get to that after we deliver
You could let them know what kind of data and level of quality you need to perform the tests. Especially since 4iiii could play a major role in getting you Ant+ support through the bridge function in the Viiiiva. Something to win for both of you IMHO. Ant+ speed/cadence sensors work just fine already, I hear, using the Viiiiva and a V800.
First off kudos for kicking this off, its great to see companies embrace these forums for Q&A, and feedback. Coming in with a technology background I understand the software development cycle. No software would ever get released if we had to wait for all the features to be implemented day one.
That said with the majority of power meters supporting ANT+ why not a dual chip device to bridge the gap? Future proof is great but backwards compatibility is as important. It’s a lot to expect that consumers will purchase a $1500+ power meter with BTLE or a bridge device just so they can buy a V800.
Any comments on DCR’s observation that the heart rate strap has a very hard time staying in place while swimming? Also, does the swim metric update include open water functionality/distance tracking?
Lastly, I use RaceDay Apollo as my main training software, which allows me to upload TCX files easily. Would I be able to import my workouts from the V800 into Apollo just as easily?
Any comments on DCR’s observation that the heart rate strap has a very hard time staying in place while swimming? Also, does the swim metric update include open water functionality/distance tracking?
Lastly, I use RaceDay Apollo as my main training software, which allows me to upload TCX files easily. Would I be able to import my workouts from the V800 into Apollo just as easily?
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Strap staying in place is a weird thing. So dependent on body type/build. You just have to experiment with a few things to get the right position, or wear a tri top.
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Swim Metric update includes OWS stuff at the same time
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The export should be just as easy once it’s implemented. User experience with our new platform is almost #1 priority
why not a dual chip device to bridge the gap? Future proof is great but backwards compatibility is as important.
Totally get your point. But can’t really comment on this completely. We see BT Smart as the future, we’re simply moving forward.
I really would like a QR system for the bike leg on a tri, will you start selling one? The generic watch holder is not that good for this purpose.
You could let them know what kind of data and level of quality you need to perform the tests. Especially since 4iiii could play a major role in getting you Ant+ support through the bridge function in the Viiiiva. Something to win for both of you IMHO.
+1
This would remove the biggest FUD your competitors are going to throw out : “It doesn’t work with the most popular power meters out there”
Ant+ speed/cadence sensors work just fine already, I hear, using the Viiiiva and a V800.
If I look at DC’s review on the viiiva, he seems to say it works fine when you are only transmitting 1 piece of info, ie hr OR power OR cadence
The minute you try to send both, the viiiva uses mutiple data channels that the App (in this case the V800) needs to be able to understand. I doubt the V800 has been updated to do this
So it sounds like cadence+power wouldn’t work.
That’s how I understood it, maybe I am way off. But it sounds like it is something Polar could/should test.
DC or Chris, did I get this right ?
It would also be nice to see a list of other potential bridges. Wahoo was supposed to deliver one with it RFLT+ or something like that.
Boxers or briefs?
(hey - you said anything)
If I look at DC’s review on the viiiva, he seems to say it works fine when you are only transmitting 1 piece of info, ie hr OR power OR cadence
The minute you try to send both, the viiiva uses mutiple data channels that the App (in this case the V800) needs to be able to understand. I doubt the V800 has been updated to do this
So it sounds like cadence+power wouldn’t work.
That’s how I understood it, maybe I am way off. But it sounds like it is something Polar could/should test.
DC or Chris, did I get this right ?
It depends.
To multichannel something the app/device has to know how to handle that. 4iiii’s started with their own channeling, but then moved to something a bit more open. I don’t know if that open matches the spec per se though. The BLE spec does allow multiple channels from a single sensor.
In my testing with the V800, I used Viiiiva in a non-HR config purely to test a few common sensors (cycling, running), but did not test the HR piece. I can try tomorrow on a trainer a bit. For the other sensors, I put those in a table as far as current compatibility with the V800/Viiiiva combo.
What is the technology used to measure free living activity? Does it rely solely on an accelerometer, or do you have additional sensors to improve accuracy, such as GSR or skin temperature?
Have you verified the accuracy versus a gold standard for calorie burn (like Doubly labeled water)? How do you determine sleep, and does it require pressing a button to tell the watch when you are trying to sleep or have woken up?
Are the algorithms accessable continuously without presence of a phone or does it require communication via an API to process raw data?
It depends.
To multichannel something the app/device has to know how to handle that. 4iiii’s started with their own channeling, but then moved to something a bit more open. I don’t know if that open matches the spec per se though. The BLE spec does allow multiple channels from a single sensor.
In my testing with the V800, I used Viiiiva in a non-HR config purely to test a few common sensors (cycling, running), but did not test the HR piece. I can try tomorrow on a trainer a bit. For the other sensors, I put those in a table as far as current compatibility with the V800/Viiiiva combo.
Ray, thanks for adding your input
In your testing did you ever multi-channel ? I know you did Spd/Cad, but is that multi-channel ?
Also, do you know of other bridges ?
I didn’t multichannel with Viiiiva, but I’ll do some tomorrow during my trainer ride.
There are currently no other bridges on the market, but, I expect that’ll change rather shortly.