Point of diminishing returns?

Feb 10, 03 15:35

Post #1 of 23 (6914 views)

I�ve been reading many of the posts from recent threads about the necessity of aero equipment and the advantages of Brand A over Brand B and I figured it�s time I tossed my hat into the ring.

I get amused at the endless debate over a lot of the equipment with many of the forum members. It seems there are certain "rules" of this forum and that by deviating from them, you are an outsider. Rule One, you need a Cervelo, anything else is a compromise. Second, Zipp and Hed wheels are the only way to go. Heaven forbid someone ride anything that does not come from those two. Third, Powercranks make you go faster than anything else.

I�m sorry, but my opinion, which is based on nearly 20 years of competitive cycling, is that it�s talent, fitness and using your head that gets you to the line first. Sure, some bikes "may" be more aero than others, but if you can�t TT at over 26MPH, then I suggest you train more (and smarter) and spend less time debating crosswind angles on aero tubes and moment of inertia on wheels. It�s the ability to put the power to the ground, people.

I�m no retrogrouch, I love bikes and all the cool new stuff. But, think about this, look at Lemond�s front wheel on his famous last day TT in the �89 tour. It�s a tiny little aero rim. A wheel I bet many on this form would not even train on. Yet, he averaged 35 MPH on that aero dog.

Better that you take your spare time and train and use your money to race more, and get a good coach. I bet you�ll see more improvement that way than dropping $4k on an exotic bike. I see it every year at the local TT�s. Guys showing up with the most expensive stuff money can buy, and then just crawl down the course.

I�m not saying you don�t deserve to buy this stuff or you are a poser or anything like that. This is just my piece of advice from a guy that�s been racing bicycles for nearly twenty years. In all of those years, and that includes a lot of time trials, I can tell you with 100% honesty that my equipment was never my limiting factor.

This is not flame bait or to insult those who own Cervelos with Zipps and Powercranks. What I�m trying to say is that don�t lose sight of what this really is, a sport. WHen it's all said and done, it still boils down to the athlete.

That�s all I got to say about that.

AL

Re: Point of diminishing returns? [Aaron L] [ In reply to ]

Feb 10, 03 15:47

Post #2 of 23 (6892 views)

I agree about the training thing, but really it is more than just "gear", it is a hobby as well. $4-5k is not much to drop really, look at other sports, ... price a jetski, dirtbike, etc.

I dont ride a Cervelo (Santa Cruz), use Zipps (Corima), or PowerCrack (anyway), so not everyone here is sold on that.

Have you seen what the fast TT'rs are using? Look at the CAT 3 guys at your local race. If I see any more P3's or HED 3D's I'm going to puke.

Re: Point of diminishing returns? [Aaron L] [ In reply to ]

Feb 10, 03 15:55

Post #3 of 23 (6882 views)

I don't disagree with you one bit. My first tri bike was a 12 sp Miele. I fitted it with aerobars, clipless pedals and some used aero wheels off ebay and it would do 98% of what any of my new bikes will do. Bicycles definately do suffer from the law of diminishing returns. That last 2% of speed from aero equipment really costs big $$$.

However, there is the fun factor. It's all about "boys and their toys" and getting personal satisfaction spending our money on gollygewhiz new bike stuff. Why does a middle aged middle of the pack AG'er like me need a Cervelo. I don't need one, but I want one. Heck, we could be spending our hard earned money on worse things than bikes.

Re: Point of diminishing returns? [Gary in SD] [ In reply to ]

Feb 10, 03 16:08

Post #4 of 23 (6870 views)

those are nice points, AL, particularly the lemond thing. personally i do not see where your view and a more tech/hobbyist view are mutually exclusive nor diametrically opposed. it is more fun to talk about stuff - as another poster noted recently we are mostly guys here and guys like to talk about stuff. i ride a steel road bike on 30 mm wheels in tri's. i have some powercranks on a very retro 28 lb rivendell because they force me to pedal like i thought i already did over 20 years of bike racing myself and i think that is pretty dang cool. but i still want to know about every tech angle of this other stuff because like gary says it is a hobby, and a cheap one at that compared to many. but, your points are well taken - personally i think the largest determiner in success is who you picked as parents. . . . you call it talent so we are good there. the rest of this stuff is just to keep me occupied so i don't have to talk about freaking golf clubs.

Re: Point of diminishing returns? [t-t-n] [ In reply to ]

Feb 10, 03 16:17

Post #5 of 23 (6858 views)

...and besides, being old and slow but having cutting edge equipment is time honoured tradition. without old slow guys on top dollar stuff who are the young guns on borrowed beaters gonna whup on and feel great about themselves for so doing?? i liked being the young gun on my natty cobbed together bike, and i am more than happy to oblige being old and in the way. "the circle of life", and all that. . . . .(where is elton john when you need him?) :)

Re: Point of diminishing returns? [Aaron L] [ In reply to ]

Feb 10, 03 16:29

Post #6 of 23 (6841 views)

Hi Aaron,

You got the picture that I have in my mind....

The cervelo stuff that you said is so TRUE !!!!!!

The other thing that bothers me is that 90% of the posts are bike related.... It seems that swimming and running is not important in a Triathlon.... I realize that the most important sport to be strong is running, for all distances !!!! But here I never see a posted related with techinique of running, new shoes, new training innovations.....
My problem is that cycling is my strongest sport, and I think I quite know how to training and get motivated to do a good bike split.... That�s why I�d love to see new post related to run or swim...

But I have to confess that anyway I still like the forum very much....

Luiz Eng

Re: Point of diminishing returns? [Leng] [ In reply to ]

Feb 10, 03 16:48

Post #7 of 23 (6822 views)

Yeah, I noticed that most of the posts are bike related, too. But, I think that as one other post pointed out, it's mostly guys and we love to bench race, so the bike part gets the most attention because of all the cool equipment involved.

I love all the high zoot stuff, myself. I ordered a Renn disc just a few weeks ago. It'll save me maybe 15 seconds on a 40K over my rear Shamal, but it will look a lot cooler. :)

"My hypocrisy knows no bounds!"

(Doc Holiday from the movie "Tombstone")

AL

Re: Point of diminishing returns? [t-t-n] [ In reply to ]

Feb 10, 03 17:21

Post #8 of 23 (6799 views)

"rivendell"

t-t-n, nice to hear that someone else is aware of these. Some day, when my grandchildren are too big to sit on my knee and I'm too old to do tri, I'll get either Rivendell, Richard Sachs or some other high end retro maker to make me a custom lugged steel for "my rest of my life" bike. Then I'll pedal off into the sunset with a smile on my face.

Re: Point of diminishing returns? [Aaron L] [ In reply to ]

Feb 10, 03 18:40

Post #9 of 23 (6768 views)

I am officially an outsider. I ride a Corima Fox, use Renn and Lew wheels, and go ga-ga over any TT bike with two wheels. I saw a very business-like Land Shark with old-school Corimas, one lone chainring, and old-school parts and fell in love. I loved the simplicity. I miss my Andy Gilmour with the semi-aero tubes, 24" front wheel, and very old parts. I just love bikes. And I even love Cervelos, despite the fact that Gerard's insistance on Integrated Headsets.

You're right about the front wheel on Lemond's rig. I ran one a lot like it last year after being frustrated by the anchor my Cosmic proved to be. My new Lew (which I got dirt cheap) is lighter than my old-school front. But the old-school front could still be useful.

Anyway, the whole point is to have fun. I have whipped by guys on better bikes, and guys on much lesser bikes have whipped my furry butt. If I would have had my current ride in the days where I had posted great 40K times, I might have had a better PR, or not. Who knows? Who cares!?!

The most fun is to see if my hard work nets me a faster time. I know that my equipment can't be holding me back. It all comes down to how well I have trained all year and how my metal preparation went the night before. To simply state it- it's all about the motor, not the machine (especially when the machine is near-perfect).

Re: Point of diminishing returns? [t-t-n] [ In reply to ]

Feb 10, 03 19:04

Post #10 of 23 (6750 views)

Sorry to get off the subject but the thought of Powercranks on a Rivendell send visions of Grant going into cardiac arrest.Talk about an elitist.Still have every Reader they ever printed but they still wont sell me a bike. Greg lemond flew like the wind that day but Larry Fignewton would have worn the helmet and used the areo bars he would have possibly won the tour that year

Re: Point of diminishing returns? [Cullen Watkins] [ In reply to ]

Feb 11, 03 4:10

Post #11 of 23 (6707 views)

heh heh. there are some slam bars on that rivendell, too. and, it is essentially a trainer bike for triathlons in its current incarnation. i wonder if grant would feature it in the "reader" !! :)

Re: Point of diminishing returns? [Aaron L] [ In reply to ]

Feb 11, 03 5:13

Post #12 of 23 (6675 views)

I think that you are missing the point. Most on this forum have limitations on training time due to jobs, families, and other essential obligations. 10-14 hours a week is all I can do and all I will be able to do for the forseeable future. Training more isn't a realistic option. But you know what we can do to fight age and time constraints, buy some free speed. Now we don't want to plunk down a wad of dough on something that isn't going to help us so hence the extensive debate on which widget is the best. So chill on the "I've been bike racing since dinosuars roamed the planet when we didn't need all the fancy schmancy gear you slowpokes use today" attitude. We KNOW it's the engine. But thanks for telling us ..... AGAIN.

Re: Point of diminishing returns? [t-t-n] [ In reply to ]

Feb 11, 03 5:16

Post #13 of 23 (6674 views)

please tell me that it's an All Rounder.That would complete the picture.A buddy of mine told me of a toe to toe between Frank and Grant at shop he worked at in the bay area.I'd love to see a shot of your bike in it's current state.Put a disc on and it's a shoo in for the the next Reader.

Re: Point of diminishing returns? [t-t-n] [ In reply to ]

Feb 11, 03 5:37

Post #14 of 23 (6664 views)

it is a pink all-rounder. one of the first, built at waterford. i later crashed it into a mini-van and broke it in half and it was rebuilt by their current builder and painted by bell. since it is 26 in wheeled maybe the disc should be a sugino tension disc, just to make sure grant doesn't sleep for a month or so. i think grant is just ticked at mr day cuz PC's are unridable in converse high tops. in any case it would be interesting to see whether he would entertain the bike. . . .or if, like a high schooler he is only "alternative" so long as that means you think the same as him. . . . .:) :)

Re: Point of diminishing returns? [Aaron L] [ In reply to ]

Feb 11, 03 7:15

Post #15 of 23 (6627 views)

Hear what you are saying and I agree with the endless droning on and on about aerodynamics. The first, formost and perhaps only rule is to get into the most pwerful, and comfortable position that you can that optimizes your bodies aerosynamics on the bike. THEN train, and train and train . . and train some more. For some reason this concept is lost on many. Perhaps it is TOO simple.

Not to brag , but to illustrate your point, I rode a sub 5:00 hr Ironman bike split on heavy, steel, round tubed and lugged bike with only modestly aero wheels and clip on aero-bars. I also rode sub 5:00 on a tricked out Softride with ZIPP 440's . . . . so go figure.

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Re: Point of diminishing returns? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]

Feb 11, 03 7:24

Post #16 of 23 (6616 views)

Got an even better one. I know a guy who bought a new Cervelo P3. He was slower on it than he was the year before at the same tri when riding his old Bianchi 12 sp. Try justifying that purchase to your wife.

Re: Point of diminishing returns? [slick] [ In reply to ]

Feb 11, 03 8:56

Post #17 of 23 (6549 views)

Slick,

I think you are missing the point of the post. What I'm saying is that the exotica is not needed for the vast majority of riders. For example, for the sake of argument let's say Zipp 440 wheels are the "gold standard" of aero wheels, and at $1200 a pop they better be. BUT, for about $300.00 I can buy several other types of wheels (Shimano 5??'s come to mind) that may not be as aero, but the time differnce in a 40K is going to be insignificant as in probably about 15-30 seconds, and that's at 25 MPH. SO what? Are you losing by that much in every race you do? Do you REALLY think that buy buying the most exotic you will go faster than if you bought mid-price/level stuff. I'm not preaching downtube shifters and wool jerseys, my friend. What I'm saying is that all the exotic parts that are worshiped on this forum are not going to make you any faster than run of the mill stuff.

In fact, this rings even more true for folks like you and I where we have limited time to train and we KNOW we cannot reach our true potential. Using equipment that is intended for the top levels of the sport is simply a waste for you and me. Don't you agree?

Re: Point of diminishing returns? [Aaron L] [ In reply to ]

Feb 11, 03 9:16

Post #18 of 23 (6525 views)

i think it depends on how you define "waste", AL.

for example, go to a AMA superbike race sometime. look around at the crowd - or more precisely their own motorcyles. you will see scads of highly and expensively tricked out machines of every description. 1300 bucks will not get you very far in hot-rodding a ducati 999. or even a honda 600. and yet, even the mundane honda is WAY better a machine than 98% of any of their owners will ever be able to truly appreciate. so, in that sense spending more $ to make it even faster is a complete waste, in one sense. but there is another sense. it has to do with appreciation of cool stuff, an eye for detail in machinery, pride and personal expression, etc etc. as an aside, it is a rare thing for a motorcycle guy to say about another " that guy doesn't NEED that eiron brothers rc 51!". point of fact everybody already knows this to be true. instead, they say " nice bike".

i wonder why bike (tri) guys aren't more like this, myself. i like a nicely built bike for its own sake. how fast the guy is on it i really do not care about one whit. not that i am arguing with you - far from it, as you are correct. just offering another way to lok at things that is not in conflict with your own view, for conversation's sake.

Re: Point of diminishing returns? [Aaron L] [ In reply to ]

Feb 11, 03 9:31

Post #19 of 23 (6508 views)

Aaron,

It may be a waste, but its fun, and people work hard for their money, so let them spend it as they choose.

Why do people need $85000 BMW's or $450000 Ferarri's? They dont race them? Why do people soup up cars with expensive wheels and camshafts, mufflers, etc to make them go faster and look cooler? Realistically? the car can already go faster than it needs (above the maximum speed limit >80mph), why do you need a top speed that can go higher when you arent even going to reach that potential anyway?

Because its FUN! it gives us something to talk about, to brag about. Its a toy, a hobby, whatever.

Boys will be boys, my g/f doesnt have a clue why i dropped $3600 on a bike in my first 3 months in the sport, or why i want to spend another $1200 on wheels. Its fun. Will it make me any better? i would like to think so. Realistically, no. But IT LOOKS FREAKING COOL to have a tri-spoke/404/whatever with a disc on the back, and riding a sweet bike.

I know where you are coming from though. People who "suck" with expensive bikes look great until they actually have to ride them. But then laugh as you pass them. Dont criticize them for spending the money. Could they have spent the money elsewhere, on coaching, etc? Yes, did they? no. Thats their choice. Everyone wants to have the best stuff, if you work hard for your money, why not buy it? If it makes you happy?

I ask why people spend $500 on aerobars. i dont understand it, but if i had the money to spend on it, would i? Yes. They look REALLY cool! They work for the money, its their money to spend as they see fit. Its a game, a very expensive game, but a game never the less. Its a chance to do something fun and take a break from everyday hassles. Why not have the best stuff?

And its a LOT cheaper than golf (1200 for a driver, 50-200 a round...), hockey (well...at least growing up!) or many other sports like that.

Basically what im trying to say is...you may not need the best equipment, but it doesnt hurt, and if it makes you happy, then spend your money as you see fit, and enjoy yourself.

-Kevin

"Anyone can work hard when they want to; Champions do it when they don't."

Last edited by: Kevin_Queens: Feb 11, 03 9:35

Re: Point of diminishing returns? [Kevin_Queens] [ In reply to ]

Feb 11, 03 11:33

Post #20 of 23 (6372 views)

"People who "suck" with expensive bikes look great until they actually have to ride them. But then laugh as you pass them. Dont criticize them for spending the money."

It's actually more fun being a middle aged middle of the pack AG'er on a Cervelo P2K than it was being a middle aged middle of the pack AG'er on my old 12 sp. At least I tell myself that to justify the purchase.

Re: Point of diminishing returns? [Kevin_Queens] [ In reply to ]

Feb 11, 03 12:20

Post #21 of 23 (6324 views)

Hey Kevin,

I agree with your comparison on expensive cars and all the fun toys we tend to buy, but cannot fully utilize.

What really motivated me to post my original message was some of the threads that just go overboard on the equipment. Don't get me wrong, I have an dedicated aero TT bike (a Fort) and I have a set of Shamal wheels, and a Renn on the way. So, I also appreciate and buy nice equipment. What I hate to see is those that are new to the sport, or maybe thinking of upgrading existing stuff think that they just HAVE to have a Cervelo, or Zipps/Hed or carbon aerobars. They fork out all the cash and then realize that the difference is little to none. Of course noone will admit that the $4k he/she just laid out is a waste, but for most, it is.

I'm not trying to tell anyone that he/she does not deserve high-ticket items or that he/she is a poser. What I'm just trying to relate to those that get blinded by all the hype (and I get blinded too), that the returns for the very high-end stuff are minimal, at best. That's all. It's a free country to buy whatever one wants to.

THe way I see it, i would rather kick ass on a mid-level rig than finish in the back on a trick bike. How does one "look good" when off the back? You can't buy the respect you'll get from your competitors when you kick ass.

I just want to point out that I enjoy this forum and the civil manner in which people debate. It's a nice change from many of the other forums.

Re: Point of diminishing returns? [Leng] [ In reply to ]

Feb 11, 03 12:39

Post #22 of 23 (6303 views)

1. Man, I just ground off 1g of zipper on my Orca, and made it round instead of square. Can't wait to test it in the flume.

2. Dude! Wait until you see see my new elastic lacing system for my New Balance 855s. Sweeeet!

And you wonder why we don't talk about the other sports? I'm kidding of course. If it wasn't for the swim and the run I would suck - for me the bike is a 40-182km transition between the swim and the run.

But please keep talking about bike stuff. There's more to disagr.., er, discuss on that topic...

Re: Point of diminishing returns? [Aaron L] [ In reply to ]

Feb 11, 03 15:00

Post #23 of 23 (6226 views)

Aaron,

I understand what you are saying now. Thats cool.

A friend of mine and hopefully coach soon told me the same thing. Don't get caught up in buying all the stuff. You dont really need it right now.

Although it would be great to see more swimming based threads, there isnt exactly the same appeal? It is cool to swim fast, but i dont know where else you can get the thrill of going 60+ km/h down a hill with only a thin plastic layer between you and certain death if you fall.

Its more of an adrenalin rush, and there is more stuff to talk about too...as Tom put it, there are 40 things you can get right or wrong on a bike.

There isnt as much physical stuff in the swim or run, not as many chances to "buy speed".

Ie, typical swimming post "what kind of razor did you use to get the closest most aerodynamic shave?" ????

or running shoes? which ones?

I think the stuff there is a lot more subjective, ie, pronators vs. supinators. Since everyones running (and partially) swimming techniques are different, it doesnt leave as much room to debate stuff, where as on the bike, its practically the same motion, in somewhat the same position. It leaves more room to make specific judgements of the mechanical aspects :)

I do however look forward to hopefully seeing more stuff on how to swim faster, b/c i KNOW thats hurting. And maybe some more training info on running?

Take care,

-Kevin

"Anyone can work hard when they want to; Champions do it when they don't."

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