Noone wants to test the "masses". Obviously, the tests have to be targeted. Based on conversations with Ironman, it usually tests AG OOC based on information, suspicion, abnormal performances comparing to the past. Then, they like to compare to the biological passports of the athletes, which for AG, they practically don't have. Thus, there are very few OOC tests. That's why we would like IM to start to test in World Championship races and assemble little by little, in the process, biological profiles of those athletes. It's then a long process, but must, can start one day.

Isn't there an accusatory testing method? I think USATF does it. Think someone doped.. pay for their test. If busted they pay you back plus some fine. If not, you take the loss and know you haven't trained hard enough.

They were already astonished when we reached 250, and were saying "Great", which shows how the expectations were low. Now, every time, we pass another 100, they just don't have "word" anymore. So, we will see where it goes until the World Championships. We are getting close to 1000! I suppose, when you see the numbers of triathletes worldwide, 1000 looks pretty small, but for us it is Big. A drawback obviously is that we don't have access to all the triathletes in the world, so to base ourselves on that number is a bit misleading. Help from the some of the Medias would be welcome, but I sense hesitation on their part. At times, I feel that they are afraid to go "against Ironman", as if here, we were going against Ironman. We are not. It will have to be a "partnership", in the sense, that ironman sees an interest in doing these tests and, thus, it becomes a win-win situation. This has never been done, so we are going along a bit blindfolded. The "insiders" believe we need Pros supporting the effort. So we are trying to get as many as possible. We already have a few great names: Tyler Butterfield, Fred Van Lierde, Lionel Sanders

Yes but your an absolute minority. The masses arent' moving away from WTC, if anything they are going towards them because other races are dropping off.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Get 25k more of your friends to do that, and you'll get a meeting with WTC.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

You're missing the point. If you want to get more support you have to appeal to the people who will be willing to put up the money. As you've seen on this board some people won't support higher fee's for testing. I'd say thats a majority of the non-competitive athletes as well as bucket listers. If you suggest it to the completive athletes who don't want their spots taken by a doper you're more likely to gain traction. If you have a smaller pool of athletes to test they can be tested based on a lottery not just suspicion.

And let me say, I think it's a kick ass thing. I saw Rudy Von Berg posting or commenting about it, so I know it's atleast getting out there on social media. And I'm only "busting your balls" in the sense that, I just hope you have a plan of action with this. This is the 1st step, this isn't the end step that you can take to WTC and say "see you have to do AG testing". This essentially is ST's weekly "poll" to see what kind of basic interactions you can get.

I simply disagree with Dan on how it's actually going to be implemented. This is essentially a "go fund me" process, this isn't something your going to be able to rely on WTC to fund it out of the "goodness of the sport".

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Good idea. During registration, people should be given an option: "do you want to contribute $5-25 to the AG anti doping fund?". Problem solved, end of thread :)

Not $25 per race. $25 per racing license. (which I'm not sure exists for WTC, but I'm coming from the bike racing world).

But for the other question, randomness serves two benefits. First, you never want to set up a clear, unambiguous goal post for dopers. Because when they know the date they're going to be tested that simplifies things tremendously.

Second, it reduces cost. Test a sampling. Not everyone.

You get a lot of the benefit for a fraction of the cost.

I think the mantra of anti-doping should be "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the acceptable." Yes, there are always flaws in an anti-doping system. Always will be. It's a balance of privacy, cost, hassle, confusing rules, imperfect science, etc. It's easy to throw stones from the sidelines.

But the question I ask is, "Is it better than a complete free-for-all?" If the answer is, "Yes," then I'll consider it.

You're not really taking in much of the feedback on this thread are you?

The masses really don't care.

well then what? it sounds like you've put yourself in a box. if you want to sign a petition, fine. no problem. just, you have to be willing to walk away if that petition yields no fruit (if the subject of the petition is that important to you).

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

It almost has the target 1,000 signatures. But in scope of all of the AG triathlete participants that would never actually be willing to contribute either money or effort toward the cause.....I'm getting the same feeling that you are.

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https://connect.garmin.com/modern/profile/domingjm

well then what?

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You were the one saying WTC needs to go halfies on this with the customer. I rebutted that, and you never responded to how/why WTC is going to cover half the costs of it?

ETA: Or I guess your answer was to stop supporting WTC, which I then replied that's not what's happening currently, so I guess we're at a standstill and waiting for the masses to quit doing WTC races then.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Are you advocating testing ONLY for synthetic testosterone? I don't think anyone else is.

fine. i'm out. sounds like you guys have a strategy. good luck.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Isnt that low handing fruit by comparison?

Stephen J

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

No, I don't think it's bad. You misunderstood my point. My point was that, because so many are cheating today, it would be difficult to gain popular support for testing. Rather than tolerate it, they would take their banned substances to another triathlon organization -- one without testing and the risk of exposure. And the fields would therefore be decimated.

I'm saying your strategy isn't real world applicable, or it's not happening, or it'll take 8 years for people to get sick of WTC and boycott.

Your saying WTC and customers should go 50/50 on it. I'm asking you why WTC would go halfies on this when they dont see the problem. Essentially we are creating a problem and our solution is making them pay for half of it?


That's where I'm confused at, other than you saying you'll simply boycott. Which is cool and noble. Just dont think 160k usat triathletes or what is it 400k people doing WTC events a year would do that.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

If a few bucks are added to all inscription fees ( and Ironman is the decision maker, and perhaps as Dan says with ITU, USAT..) noone sees the difference. The main roadblock will be to have the courage, or the political will, or the economic decision to put it into place, to implement it. The Logistics, the System that must be put in place is the more difficult part, not the Money readily available.

This point exactly! By not racing IM, one avoids complaints about drafting, poor sportsmanship, littering, etc. which seem to be present in larger races (Im pretty sure because they cost so much, that it is expected to be a 'full service' type of deal)...although I can see how this would suck for those who want to brag that they did an ironman; you just don't get as much mileage with a local-yocal race that is put on by friends.

For that matter, there should start being something like strava-triathlons. This would be totally honor-system racing, and no one wins any trophies, no one needs to pay for a tee, no barricades, no crowds...just race. You just race and upload as much as you want for the price of one sprint triathlon (i.e. the cost of a watch that records strava-compatible data). Maybe even have clubs that go from one 'course' to another for some in-person head-to-head. In something like this, it is sort of self-policing, as everyone knows everyone else; and the anonymity (which helps doping) is taken away.

Anyway, sorry for the ramble.

Stephen J

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

Well, it seems I misunderstood only part of it ( decimated because they go somewhere else), but not the rest which is that "it's that bad"..a great deal of cheaters out there. As I already said, that is an incentive to have an Anti-Doping Testing system put in place, and not to go look somewhere else. Then how do we define "popular support", How many is a a lot? How many are sufficient? So many people are unreachable, so many don't bother to answer or have an opinion (which is fine--everyone has the right to do and think what he/she wants). So how do we calculate? A % of National Federations Members, a % of Ironman Participants? Which %? It's difficult to pinpoint a number since this has never been done. Before we started this, frankly, 1000 was NEVER in our mind. So, we will see where it goes. Let Time do its work.

maybe your outreach ought to be making what's cool and noble cool and noble. used to be, not that long ago in my history, popular movements were done, were effective, were widespread, without facebook or twitter or reader forums. if AG drug testing is really something people WANT, then i don't see how a popular movement should take years and years. more like days and days.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I've stated all along AG testing isn't popular (I even said I'm 100% against it from the start because the pro ranks cant even get it right...the scope of AG testing would be nothing). So my point is, if you want it, pay for it yourself, dont think/expect an federation to go halfies because they have the money to or should....this is a business after all for WTC and even ITU/USAT. They certainly arent going to spend money on something that a very non vocal minority want.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

This debate has gone on for years which implies there is no acceptable, reasonable solution that will satisfy a significant bulk of consumers. And a "boycott" of IM by a few slowtwitchers who generally dislike WTC won't move the dial a micrometer, especially since for the majority of American WTC consumers there is no realistic alternative to Ironman for what they want to achieve. And as a frequent IM competitor who despises dopers, am I supposed to believe that doping is any less widespread outside of that franchise? Or that it is less frequent in any other sport in today's world (ha!)?

If Ironman could charge more they would, but they are well aware of the price limits in this market. To make up the difference they run their operation on a shoestring, underpaying the majority of their employees, and suffering exceptional turnover and vacancy rates. (You see it all the time on ST and social media - why won't Ironman answer my phone call, e-mail, etc? Because no one is there!). So scratch any idea of them paying more for drug testing. And with USAT memberships down, I doubt they want to cover more AG dope testing out of their declining coffers.

So we are where we are. I've accepted that a good percentage of my competitors are doping and have adjusted my goals and attitude accordingly. I race the events I want to race for me and expect that MOST athletes feel similarly. We can revisit this in 8 years when the predicted boycott of WTC has still not materialized.

^^^^^ True.

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Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

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