You know what: deep down I kind of agree with your analysis. But still there is something in me that wants to try it. Try what exactly? To have the "fairest" races possible and it included obviously the other big "fair" nemesis: drafting. At least, in this one, they are trying something ( the multiple waves at Championships, and the roll start help a lot) even if it not enough yet. But AG Doping: practically nothing is done and we think it's much more prevalent than admitted. Perhaps even more than in the Pros. Also, personally, I have forbidden my friends/families that are not triathletes to sign the Petition. We really want only triathletes (if possible). Well, be one of them. Thanks for Triathlon.

it's difficult to answer 100% Yes to that question. Some tests obviously work since Kevin Moats got caught twice within a few years and now got an 8yr suspension. So, he quit the sport.

Sorry, but my English is not good enough; Can you explain ( fruit stripe...?) in other words? Thanks

But who cares only morons get caught in post race doping. This is about out of comp testing.

“AGroupers want more AG Doping Testing. Lets not be naïve, Not only Pros dope, AG dope too, perhaps even more. We ask Ironman to perform out of competition surprise testing. We want World 70.3 and IM AG Podium Top 3 Finishers tested. We want Fair Races!”

This seems like one of those wonderful idea things if we don’t care about cost. But with cost it’s almost completely prohibitive.

Fruit stripes are a type of chewing gum. They are really tasty and sweet but the flavour lasts like, 3 chews. I can understand this man's struggle.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

So here's the advice I'll give you.....you want the fairest race possible go to WTC with financial figures that will make AG testing possible for them. Don't tell them you got 2100 people to sign an online petition. Tell them you got 28k people willing to pay $25 extra registration fee to afford an "AG testing" pool of money.

That's what you need to do with this info. Contact every person who signs the waiver and ask them what they'd be willing to spend extra. Some will, some will say hell no.

Go read an ST thread on USAT membership fees....people bitch all the time it's too much, and not worth it. Your going to tell 96% of the members they have to pay an additional $5/$10/$25 membership fee so that 2% of the AG population can feel good about being tested?


As an higher up once told me, "dont complain to me about my methods without a better solution". That's the real take home message you must figure out.

I completely agree with Stover that all these organizations dont care about AG testing, and I'll always add an 1-up...AG'ers themselves dont care either.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I realize you are taking this serious, and I am one of the few that is not. I think there are a litany of issues that are very important to the future and health of triathlon that deserve attention and mobilization, but this just isn't one of them.

I think you need to chill out a bit. It's only a game remember.

I got pulled on sunday because i was the first in my ag to finish. They told me first in ag and overall were tested saturday, and they were trying to do the same Sunday within the limits of the rolling start.

Interesting. I'm glad that they were testing. Congrats!!! on the win, not the testing :)

I signed the petition because it took 5 seconds of my time and cost me nothing. It it convinces a race organization to make racing better for other people...at no cost to me...why not? However I'm very much in the camp that doesn't care if AG testing takes place or not, and I'm certainly not going to spend any money to support it. I rather have a free month of Netflix than know some guy I don't know or care about is clean or not.

Thanks, but i didn't win. Sunday was a time trial start because the swim was cancelled, and three people who started after i did were faster. Kinda to be expected when the overall winner is in your age group. Cool to be considered fast enough to be tested though.

just a general reply to the thread....

Would something like this work?

Once you finish top 5 in your age group at a WTC race you are placed into "competitive" category. From that time on you have to purchase a yearly "competitive" license to be eligible for AG awards and WC slots. Most of the funds from this license go towards AG testing (in and out of competition). First time top 5 folks automatically get tested at that race and are eligible for awards/slots.

Only issue I see with this is if tests do actually cost $1200 per test? A reasonable license fee wouldn't go very far.

It’s not only that though. Even if you’re a top AGer I bet you less than 50 percent understand what out of competition testing really means. You have to account for your day everyday all year.

It’s a pain for the pros and someone think AGers want to do that? Haha that’s a good joke.

So the whole issue is AG'ers have to be willing to put some real "skin" in the game. None of this "i signed a petition online" so I feel good about going forward. Let's see if your willing to pay $25 a year extra w/ your CC number attached, see how many signatures you get. That's a game changer. This is just a feel good story start.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I believe it's a bit more lax for AG. You don't have to do a whereabouts. USADA or whomever can just roll up to your door. Not home? NBD, they'll come back later.
I've had multiple athletes tested at home bc they won overall AG titles at IM's over the years and 70.3 world championships in their age group. Of course some of these were overseas athletes where NGB's are a bit more serious about clean sport than USAT.

FWIW I believe I've had 5-6 athletes OOC tested over the years and about 8-9more tested at IMH, 70.3 WCs, ITU worlds

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

So the whole issue is AG'ers have to be willing to put some real "skin" in the game. None of this "i signed a petition online" so I feel good about going forward. Let's see if your willing to pay $25 a year extra w/ your CC number attached, see how many signatures you get. That's a game changer. This is just a feel good story start.



Part of the reason AG'ers may not be willing to pay is because we've all seen how ineffective drug tests have been. With high profile athletes who never tested positive (or at least where the results were released) only getting caught because they admitted to it, the effectiveness is highly questionable. I think if we knew the tests actually work, the answer might be different.

I think this would be a more successful approach, except you don't have to finish in the top 5. Everyone that wants to be considered for Worlds pays an annual fee that goes into a pool. If you're not in the pool you can't claim a spot. I think you'd need something in place when you get an AG that has a significant roll down. Say 10 spots for Kona and 20 spots for 70.3 WC's. Make those athletes sign up for the pool and provide a sample if they want to accept the roll down spot.

I think this is a good point. I do some of our CI work and my job. We have people complaining about about processes all the time. The solution is we need to do X instead of Y. Okay sounds great how do we get to X? The normal response is well I don’t know. Well that’s great. It’s not even a Devil in the details issue. It’s a not being able to conceptualize the main parts of how to get to the new processs.

Giving just a solution, can be beneficial, I’d rather have that to go off than nothing. Letting other people workout the details sometimes works great. But if you don’t know how to get the the other solution a lot of times you’re missing why the solution just won’t work.

I agree with the sentiment here, but there are a ton of practical issues that make it unworkable. We can learn from cycling. They're trying. They're spending tens of millions of dollars per year. And it's not working.

Problems for triathlon . . .

• PEDs are so common for those over 40 years of age, support is going to be tenuous, at best. Let's face it, on a mass market basis, triathlon is about adults over 40. Kick out the synthetic testosterone crowd and entire fields will be decimated!
• Employment drug screening for a marijuana / opiates panel is relatively cheap ($50). But drug testing for banned substances means testing for hundreds of substances. Each test is extremely expensive. I think the $1,000 to $1,500 per test figure bandied about it probably about right, so long as nothing exotic hits the radar. Add to that cost the price of transportation for out-of-competition testing.
• If you do this right -- out of competition, podiums, random -- you're talking about half a dozen tests per year per athlete. Likely a cost of $6,000 to $10,000 per year per athlete JUST FOR THE TESTING.
• Then, you've got the cost of administering the programs, keeping the records, doing the PR, fighting the court cases, buying the insurance. (The organization WILL be sued.)
• And how do you decide which classes of athletes go through the program? Do you institute a "you can't enter unless you've been on the program for at least 18 months" rule? That's big money on a long lead time. What keeps the athletes from competing elsewhere instead?

Look at cycling. USAC testing is a joke. It's an IQ test for some and testing is less likely than being struck by lightning for most. World Tour? They spend the bucks. They do a ton of testing. But they STILL lack credibility. More of their athletes have a permit for using "banned" substances than don't. What's that about?

I would love to see clean fields. Most people would, I think. But how to get there? I'm not sure you can.

I believe there's plenty of evidence that testing works well enough to be extremely valuable.

I think you're starting with the premise that testing is "perfect". It's not perfect. But I vastly prefer testing of any kind to the alternative of a de-facto free-for-all. E.g. I vastly prefer making dopers stress out about micro-dosing and cycling off and worrying about their friends calling a tip line, etc, to the alternative of my competition showing up to the start line doped to the gills on the good stufff (EPO+steroids) with a worry in the world.

There's a guy in my local cycling scene who last year was bragging "if he wanted to dope" he could easily get away with it because it's just an intelligence test.

Guess what. He's now on the list I linked above. Guess he failed the intelligence test.

Rather see these signatures go towards course certification and standards... As unlike these people shooting in fish a barrel podiums, I like to best my individual splits

That would work, yeah I was just trying to figure out a way to cover the guy that very unexpectedly ends up with a podium or slot rolldown. I do think you need to make it mandatory for people that have previously made a podium or accepted a slot though. Need to make sure you get as much money for testing every year as possible.

We did that in USA Cycling. $5 surcharge for Cat 2-5, $25 for Cat 1, $50 for domestic pro (for road - slightly different for mtb, track, etc).

It seems pretty popular, and shows continued support in USAC polling

Though our entry fees are waaaaaaay lower than WTC, so there's that. And USAC racing has much less of a "recreational" component. (There's a non-race "Ride membership" for non-race events). Even Cat 5 racers bring some race game.

Race Day testing isn't going to accomplish anything if people know everyone is going to be tested. And the burden, financially and logistically for extensive out of competition testing would be extremely prohibitive.