I find my position in my aerobars to be very comfortable, more comfortable than sitting up. However, it takes me lots of sometimes painful hours, training in my aerobars to build enough strength in my neck to hold my head up in an aero position for the entire length of an ironman bike leg without too much discomfort. Does that count?


Brad

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"I can eat 21 plus a deep-fried turkey!"

Wow, Any Potts looks flat out uncomfortable in that position. It seems like the people who appear to be in the most comfortable position have 90 degree angles with their arms. Stretch that angle out and it just doesn't look right. So what makes these pros choose an "uncomfortable" position? Regarding the 11 hour age groupers not being on their aero bars... your article never came back to that point.

"So what makes these pros choose an "uncomfortable" position?"

they don't know any better. they aren't in any better position to know how to set themselves up than you are. they aren't more incisive than you, they just have bigger motors. andy just seems to me not to have yet found the right bike fitter.

"Regarding the 11 hour age groupers not being on their aero bars... your article never came back to that point."

perhaps i didn't close it out properly. my point was that these 11hr athletes, who've chosen (according to urban myth) comfort over power and aerodynamics are ironically the ones sitting up. one assumes they are sitting up because they are uncomfortable. why else would they be?

perhaps if they were positioned comfortably, as are most of the pros, they would be able to remain in the aero position, as do most of the pros.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I have been in triathlon for about a year and half and have been working on my position consistently from the start trying to optimize it for aerodynamics and comfort. I am on an 08 QR Seduza. Unfortunately, I am one of those weird long legged short torso people. I find that I am more comfortable, especially in the hip angle, when I move the saddle forward and up. Compaq cockpit like you are talking about here. There are a couple problems though that I am not sure how to solve. One, my knees are dangerously close to the aero bar and pads. If I go to a longer stem then I am starting to stretch out my short torso and lose my arm angles. Second problem, my saddle is so high that I have a huge amount of drop to get flat and also I cannot stand really at all because the saddle nose will be right in my ass or my knees will be banging on the base bar. I also have a ton of seat post sticking out. I read your other recent article but a new bike is out of the question right now. What kinds of things should I try to fix these problems?

Because they ride less and are out on the course 30% longer??

I don't think the poster that wrote that meant it in the way that you interpreted it (I could be wrong though :))

If you go low and steep there is an adaptation period where the neck and shoulders get stiff. That's the painful part. It's not during the bike fit. No one should feel pain during the fit. It's the adaption to that low position where one gets it in the neck.

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Andrew

http://www.theyogapod.com

What your article demonstrates is that the pros have long ago forgotten the days spent with stiff necks and sore taints. They worked through that period long ago and they experimented with saddles and positions just like anyone else who wants to excel would do.

I don't think any reasonable person would believe that these pros endure huge amounts of pain and suffering every time they ride to hold their positions. But to contend that they didn't have to adapt to them is ridiculous. EVERY rider who logs any kind of mileage goes through a period of adaptation to their bike.

I think my position would hold up fairly well compared with those in the photos in your article (though I race time trials, primarily, and keep my saddle more rearward out of UCI compliance considerations). I raced my first iron-distance event a month ago and had no significant discomfort issues at all. But when I first started increasing my mileage in preparation for that distance, there was a little pain and suffering. I worked through it. I'd just about guarantee that those pros worked through such a period, too. If they claim they didn't, they're either lying or it was so long ago they've forgotten. Or they're freaks of nature. But once it's done, it's done.
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Bob C.

The "science" on any matter can never be settled until every possible variable is taken into account.

"I have positioned many pro triathletes and time trialers, and I have yet to find my first subject willing to undergo a period of "pain" and "adaptation.""

I'm not sure I got the point of your article...is the above supposed to be a good thing or a bad thing?

Anyway, I most definitely have to go through a period of "pain and adaptation" to be able to ride comfortably* in my fastest position. That was true back when I was riding the Hooker, it was true when I used the Superman position, and it is true today under UCI constraints. The difference, I suppose, is that none of the pro triathletes you posted pics of are in particularly extreme positions...indeed, for the most part their thigh-torso angles look like those of well-trained cyclists on drop bars.

*As in, when racing I'm only thinking about how hard I'm riding overall, and not overly distracted by localized pain and/or fatigue.

perhaps they are sitting up because it takes 4x the training time to be able to maintain the bent over forward position for 6 hours

"Because they ride less and are out on the course 30% longer??"

so you're saying if the hawaiian ironman had a 140mi bike ride, that 2/3 of the pros would be riding on their pursuit bars?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"perhaps they are sitting up because it takes 4x the training time to be able to maintain the bent over forward position for 6 hours"

based on what evidence? what are you bringing to the party to support your view?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I'm with you on this one for sure.

This October I built my girlfriend (with NO cycling background, but obvious talent) a Kestrel Airfoil Pro with a Profile FFD post at 80 degrees. Went right to the Terry Butterfly so we could get a bit of hip rotation and then set up her front end with a set of Ritchey Probiscus bars (everything is adjustable, very nice for initial setup). Her "stem" ended up shorter than I would have liked (86mm), but the position is perfect. Hip angle is 100, elbow angle is 92, and there was no pain from the very first ride. She trained on it 3 times and then did a 12 mi TT in 32 minutes.

There are obviously complications with the UCI, but for tri, I think the concept of an open hip angle is what prevents all of that adaptation pain.

Chris

I would tend to agree with you. The pro athletes can maintain the position because they put in 15-20+ hours on the bike each week, not in spite of that amount of training. An age group athlete putting in 5-10 hours of bike time is not generally as well trained and adapted to the position as an elite age grouper or pro.

Each year I get back on my TT bike in the spring after a winter on road and cx rides, and wonder how I ever rode in the position previously. After a week or so it feels normal.

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Geoffrey Nenninger

"I'm not sure I got the point of your article...is the above supposed to be a good thing or a bad thing?"

the point is this: there is no space between AGer and pro. the AGer demands comfort. the pro demands comfort. the AGer demands it now, not after some period of adaptation. every pro i have ever fit demands the same thing. for the pro, there is no difference between comfort and power. no pro every said to me that he feels less power in a particular position but prefers to ride that way because it's more comfortable. likewise, i've never in 20 years and thousands of fits heard that from an AGer.

so my points are two:

1. power, comfort and aerodynamics all converge in one position, and it's the position demonstrated by torbjorn sindballe and others.

2. there is no difference between the pro and the AG rider in this regard.

all this assumes one thing: that the AGer we're talking about is relatively fit and trim and able to successfully ride a tri bike. for those who are not, a road race bike is a faster choice in a triathlon than a tri bike. not a road bike with full aero bars, just a road bike, even one with no aero bars.

"Anyway, I most definitely have to go through a period of "pain and adaptation" to be able to ride comfortably* in my fastest position."

well, of course you know what i'm going to say. i'm aware of your position, which as you know i do not admire, and i'm not surprised that you have to go through pain and adaptation to ride it. but if you are right that your position is, for you, the fastest available, i'm of the opinion it's not a position triathletes would find sustainable (neither pros nor AGers). the positions ridden by the pro triathletes in the pics displayed are sustainable, by pro and AG riders alike.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I'm not afraid to show off my flawed thinking.

I don't take issue much with your point there at all. I do find the TT position to be more comfortable than a road bike in a couple of ways. One, there is no weight on my hands so my hands don't fall asleep.
There is very little distress on my bad back either.

We all know that the difference in pressure placed upon the seat between a 150watt AGer and a 300watt Elite is a big deal. At least admit that this difference in weight upon the saddle will give the Elites a very different experience with ANY given fit.

When I'm in my bike with a nearly 90 degree effective STA, and a completely flat back I do have to contend with the neck pain. That was not the point of your article, so I'll move on.

We have to deal then with the angle of our pelvis on the seat. Some riders sit their butts on the seat the way the seats were designed for (a slack road position) and they are comfortable at the contact point. But doing this requires a very pronounced rounding of the lower back. I do see a lot of young athletic guys in this position, but I cringe because it's many hours of that position when I was in College that led to a ruptured disc.
Since my back is bad and I've lost some lower back flexibility over the years I keep my pelvis rotated in line with my spine and I end up sitting directly on the narrow part of the saddle on my testicles. I wonder if that's why I was found to be hypogonadal this summer?
If I can put out 300+watts of power continually that probably wouldn't hurt much, but as it stands now it hurts like hell after 30 minutes.

I've tried pointing the nose of my saddle way down which helps the seat contact me as it was intended to, but I find that my seat height varies greatly as I move around on the saddle and if I were to ride no-handed I fall forward right off the saddle.
I'm going to be experimenting with different saddles and think I may try an Adamo.

My point is that I have a serious comfort concern when I'm in the ideal aero fit and I don't think I'm a fool when it comes to bike fit.

As I read your piece, I thought, cool, he quoted, uhm, some guy. At toward the end, I figured it was not much of an honor. Now reading your post, it is clear that you were generous in not identifying the idiot you quoted. ;)

I wonder if your experience with the elites skews your perception a bit. I think the question of adaption and pain is much different from a tri-newbie perspective than an elite perspective. But, first, I believe that pain and adaptation is part of ALL training experiences, whether running or riding. I believe that a new bike rider is going to have a sore butt, even with correct position and saddle, if his first ride is an hour long. The new rider's butt muscles are simply not accustomed sitting on a saddle. Suffer a little pain, adapt, and in a month, two hour rides are no big deal.

Here is my "flawed thinking" on pain with low and forward positioning. With low and forward, the two primary pain areas are neck/shoulders and taint. When I went low and forward, my shoulders and neck were sore initially. It took a while to build up strength in my neck and shoulders. In my thinking and vernacular, I suffered and adapted. Pain and soreness went away with some riding. Am I unusual? What did I do wrong?

Similarly, with taint pain, initially I was sore because rotating my hips forward changed the contact point for saddle. I got used to it, but it is still an issue for me. I don't have enough experience yet to have opinions on this subject, but I've wondered: are elites more easily able to ride on tip of saddle because the greater force they apply to the pedals unweights their contact point with the saddle, putting less pressure on the taint? They also spend much less time on the bike.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

"Each year I get back on my TT bike in the spring after a winter on road and cx rides, and wonder how I ever rode in the position previously"

most pros i know ride their road race bikes during their off-season. when they again start tri bike riding, there is no adaptation to the position. it doesn't take a week, it takes about 50 pedal strokes. there is a little tactical and technical clumsiness during the first week -- riding the proper cadence all the time, climbing on a tri bike, stuff like that -- but no muscular adaptation and certainly no pain.

the one exception: the only muscular adaptation is the trapezius, because the only muscular difference is the range of contraction of the trapezius. if you're finding your aero position laborious, the problem is not you, or your body, it's your position.

if you "adapted" to your position, and could only ride it comfortably after such adaptation, this is what would and will happen: the adaptation will wear off as the distance wears on. that is, the discomfort you feel on the first day of the tri bike riding season is going to be felt all year long, just somewhere out there on the road, commencing 30 miles in, or 45 miles, or 60 miles in. if the position was entirely dialed in from the get go, you'd ride it with no adaptation.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan are you saying there is no adaptation period?

Is the adaptation period not the "pain" we are all discussing. No reasonable person would accept pain during a bike fit that's a given. The pain (neck) comes from adapting to that position.

If anyone does not experience this then I think that they are not low enough.

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Andrew

http://www.theyogapod.com

I would agree, with the caveat that it is a compromise position that attempts to balance all three factors (as you yourself indicate below).


And I should care because...? ;-) The point is to go fast, not to conform to some preconceived notion of how other people think you should look on a bike (as, e.g., Obree would be the first to tell you).

(BTW, how do you reconcile the above statement with previous comments that you thought Dave Z's position was perfect? Seems to me that you're contradicting yourself here.)


You're undoubtly correct there. Heck, even I'd want to raise the elbow pads up by 4-6 cm if I were going to try to ride all day in that position. However, you didn't restrict your conclusions to just IM-distance triathletes but also included those who TT over shorter distances as well, which is why I responded.

Are you saying that the "good" ironman positions that you depict would work for RAAM?

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

If it was 150miles long, and they did 30% of the amount of training that they do, I suspect that yes, they might stretch their back every now and then.

"I wonder if your experience with the elites skews your perception a bit."

i have more experience fitting non-elites than elites. what i consistently find is that non-elites react precisely as do elites during the fit process. it's been that way for 20 years. should i go another 20 before i'm able to trust my judgment?

"I believe that pain and adaptation is part of ALL training experiences, whether running or riding."

you're confusing metabolic pain with structural pain. are you saying that you should just adapt to a running style that physically hurts, and that is patently less efficient? or that you should adapt to the pain of ill fitting shoes? what sorts of pain ought one to adapt too?

look, the age group athletes that i fit on their tri bikes choose the positions they do -- positions that are very alike those chosen by pro riders -- because they are less painful. if you feel the need to endure a painful position; if a person feels that's a duty; by all means, he should go forth and suffer. but in this case it is his choice to be a flagellant. it's not a rite of passage triathletes must go through.

neck: yes, you're right. this is the singular area of adaptation.

taint: if you're adapting, the problem is the saddle. if it's the right saddle, no adaptation required. three things here: the right saddle, the right shorts, and chamois cream. i've written about "contact points" and "point tenderness" and "friction" before. that's not position related, it is equipment related.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

the one exception: the only muscular adaptation is the trapezius, because the only muscular difference is the range of contraction of the trapezius. if you're finding your aero position laborious, the problem is not you, or your body, it's your position.


Well duh. I think this is the key adaptation everyone is talking about. The neck muscles. If you're punting that now, then I really don't get the point.

I've been riding and racing for quite a long time now and I've known many people who've come into cycling and triathlon. It's interesting to watch. There are a whole lot of people who, at the first hint of any real pain, pull back and won't go there. They seem to constantly wonder why they don't achieve. There are others who push through some of those initial pains. They forget about them and they go away. They learn, over time, what they can live with and what they can adapt to. I believe THAT's what separates the top tier from all the rest. That and the desire/opportunity to train.

i agree with your general point. my lower back is actually much more comfortable on my "aggressive" tri position than my cross bike or mountain bike - by far. However, the neck muscles do need to adapt. I simply don't use those muscles in the same way as when I'm riding my tri bike. This may be an extreme point as I look over my glasses when riding. Even switching from a regular helmet to an aero helmet requires a bit of adjustment.

Dah
http://www.aiatriathlon.com

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http://www.aiatriathlon.com