Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N?
Quote | Reply
as some of you may know - because some of you may be signatories - there's a petition out there (i've asked for the link, and i'll edit this post when i get it) that would oblige ironman to add $5 to everyone's entry, in every full or 70.3 worldwide. (see the poll on this.) here's what the petition asks for, as i understand it:

1. every podium earner at both WCs would be tested, blood and urine.
2. all podiums would be tested in all AGs at 10 of the roughly 150 IM races over these distances each year, and every year the races would rotate.
3. some OOC testing is provided for as well.
4. as a separate matter, all WC entrants would need to enter the ADAMs system, as pros do, whereby you register your whereabouts for the purpose of OOC testing.

the person heading this up is rodolphe von berg, father of pro triathlete rudy von berg, and rudy sr was a very good triathlete in his day and remains a top AG competitor. there are, according to rudy sr., about 2,500 current signatories. as well as i can tell this is simply a proposal for AG athletes.

benefits

5. we have a lot of AG doping most likely, esp at the highest levels. AG testing is spotty and sparse.
6. if you do the math, unless i'm off by a decimal point, the money is probably there. let me take a mad guess that 300,000 annually pay an entry fee into a full or half IM worldwide. in that case, $5 x all entrants = $1.5 million. if a full blood and urine test costs $1,500, then, 72 tests (3 x 24 AGs) x 12 races = roughly $1.3 million.

drawbacks or hurdles

7. that math above doesn't take into account "results management" and that number can be high. it's like paying for the FBI to investigate but not leaving any money left over for federal prosectors to bring cases. if you run up against just 1 intransigent, well funded, AGer who fights his doping test, that "litigation" can cost $hundreds of thousands.
8. you think AGers should be subject to ADAMs whereabouts requirements. sounds good. in my view, this could be chaos. i asked the head of USADA earlier this decade if his org was really ready for AG testing. he answered with an unqualfied yes, and rather indignant that i asked the question. we found out pretty quickly the answer was no, evidenced by the need for retroactive TUEs. if AGers can't manage the TUE process, i don't have a lot of faith in our ability to manage whereabouts requirements.

questions

9. most AGers who race IM aren't fighting for a podium spot. is it fair to ask them to pay for something they don't care about?
10. is it fair to task IM with 100 percent of the responsibility for managing this, collecting and deploying the money? why not $3 tacked on every annual federation membership, and if a federation chooses not do this, then, races held in its country can't be among the random 10 chosen? why not $1 for every tri bike you buy?
11. if this is good for IM, is it good for USAT nationals? for ITU AG WCs? why pick on IM?

that's the landscape on this, from my POV. i guess i'd like to hear yours. a slowtwitcher took a poll on his FB page on something like this; a pretty good sample size responded; i'm not going to give away the result, because of the poll just put up. please, answer the poll, and give us your thoughts below. rudy, if i've misrepresented the facts, please correct what i've written here.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Mar 3, 19 10:02
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
No, because....

1. The question is built on the premise that the money is not already there. The money is there it's just not seen as a problem by Ironman or ITU that's worth deploying capital to address, and

2. As a solid MOP'er, I could care less whether the FOP'ers are doping to attain their "glory" and cheap trinket prizes.
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [logella] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Agreed on both points. Couldn’t care less if the FOPers are doping.


logella wrote:
No, because....

1. The question is built on the premise that the money is not already there. The money is there it's just not seen as a problem by Ironman or ITU that's worth deploying capital to address, and

2. As a solid MOP'er, I could care less whether the FOP'ers are doping to attain their "glory" and cheap trinket prizes.
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I haven’t answered the poll (no idea who’s posted it), but yes, I’d pay an extra £5 for testing - simply as I’m the eternal optimist who’d love to one day think sport is clean.

However. I don’t think it would achieve anything, as current doping control methods are ineffective at catching cheats. I’ve heard it described on several podcasts as an IQ test, rather than a drug test, as if you’re clever about it you won’t be caught.

There was a BBC documentary where a journalist who was decent amateur cyclist, microdosed EPO as an experiment. He experienced significant performance improvement with no trace detected on his biological passport.

So yeah, I’d pay simply because it sends the right message, however I don’t think it would achieve anything.
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [MP1664] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
MP1664 wrote:


There was a BBC documentary where a journalist who was decent amateur cyclist, microdosed EPO as an experiment. He experienced significant performance improvement with no trace detected on his biological passport.

So yeah, I’d pay simply because it sends the right message, however I don’t think it would achieve anything.

I get your point, but I still think it achieves something. I prefer to compete against someone micro-dosing vs. someone macro-dosing. And even if it's an IQ test, there are some genuinely smart people who've been tripped up. And it adds stress and expense. I imagine micro-dosers have to spend a good amount of time testing their blood, making surreptitious purchases either from unethical Drs. or from shady Web sites, etc. That stress detracts from a positive training environment. I much prefer that to watching some guy casually slap on Androgel patches without a care in the world.
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yes. Should be for the sport not just for IM. Becomes somewhat of a tax to compete. Race rotation will create an opportunity to dope but not choose those races if wanting to qualify for Kona or ITU Worlds (unless all NATS or any other nation qualifer). This should be either 100% or random rotation.

Take the concept another level to drafting to get the financial, educational, and technical resources for training of personnel to fairly cover a full race for compliance.

https://www.palmtreesahead.com/
https://www.palmtreesahead.com/tactics2faster-new
Last edited by: djmsbr: Mar 3, 19 17:03
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I’m having a hard time believing the extra $5 would stay at $5. As much as I want a clean sport, as a MOPer for IM distance it’s not something I think about. I aim for top 25% in my age group for full and half distance big events. I have my target times for each leg and if I hit those I’m happing with my results no matter where I place. Local shorter races I tend to be fighting for podium spots in my age group. I don’t know how I’d feel if I found out somebody ahead of me cheated. Even with those races I’ve had good races and was still happy even when I missed the podium. I do understand the elite age groupers and pros being upset but for me it’s just not something I think about.
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
YES. I would be fine with it being a fee for Ironman but it would be better if it were the federations required to collect the money and implement the program.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
don't forget to subtract out Active's cut for processing that $1.5 million, so reduce down to maybe $1.4 available to use

I cant imagine every age grouper managing ADAMS. Pros have issues with it and they live a fairly regimented life of knowing what they are doing each day since it revolves around training

I do think more AG testing needs to be done, lots of interesting performances in even local endurance racing

Boots
Fleet Feet Rochester, NY
Fleet Feet Buffalo, NY
YellowJacket Racing, Rochester, NY
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
  
9. We all pay for things we don't care about. But I'm sympathetic to that argument, and also sympathetic to the "lifestyle" argument of 65 year-olds, etc, who maybe simply wouldn't be able to even complete an IM without pharmaceutical help. I could see there maybe being a larger surcharge, let's call it $50, for those who want to be "podium eligible." If you're podium eligible you get placed. If you're not, you get your split times, but no placement information at all. Everyone still starts and finishes as usual, so it's not "shaming" the lifestyle people, no special wristband. The only real risk is a fast non-podium-eligible person mixing up with people who are, and interfering with race dynamics.

Quote:
why pick on IM?


10. Unless my perception is wrong, which it could be, I think IM kind of picks on itself. It forged its own anti-doping path of its own agency, not because we asked it to.

11. Unified approach would be best, if IM is willing to play nice.
Last edited by: trail: Mar 3, 19 10:39
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rudy Sr has been leading this charge for a long time- Thanks! As you know he is among the very best in the world in our age group.
I doubt anyone would notice another $10 in a WTC event, way expensive as it is. The only extra fee that is ever visible is the buying the USAT card.
I would gladly pay a few bucks to be assured the guys beating me are clean.
I would also pay a couple bucks more to catch those drafting and hand them stiffer penalties.

Team Zoot So Cal
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
4. as a separate matter, all WC entrants would need to enter the ADAMs system, as pros do, whereby you register your whereabouts for the purpose of OOC testing.

I'm all for anti-doping, but I would want to understand what this means in practical terms (how much time it takes, what information am I giving, what are the consequences of simply forgetting). It sounds a bit much to be honest. Separately, it's not a small amount of money were talking, would be curious how much we trust WTC/etc. to not waste a big chunk of it on overhead expenses/unnecessary salaries/etc.

Dimond Bikes Superfan
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I would agree that something needs to be done, because although I race in a pretty ancient AG, there is no doubt in my mind that there are people using PEDs in every age group. And it does peeve me if someone beats me (that happens a lot, so I'm pretty much peeved all summer).

But a suggestion or two.

The concept of keeping track of thousands of people and doing out of competition testing would seem impractical. Doable, but invasive.

For those who don't want to be tested or say they are uninterested in whether there is doping, it's very simple.
Like the use of wetsuits in warm water, if you use one, you don't get to stand on the podium.

If you chose not to pay for testing (or opt out), you cannot have your results count for podium or points or slots.

I suspect you could then charge a sensible amount that covers the cost of testing, for all those who take a slot. That would reduce the number of tests and give you a profile for those who race the Worlds.
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ericlambi wrote:
Slowman wrote:

4. as a separate matter, all WC entrants would need to enter the ADAMs system, as pros do, whereby you register your whereabouts for the purpose of OOC testing.


I'm all for anti-doping, but I would want to understand what this means in practical terms (how much time it takes, what information am I giving, what are the consequences of simply forgetting). It sounds a bit much to be honest. Separately, it's not a small amount of money were talking, would be curious how much we trust WTC/etc. to not waste a big chunk of it on overhead expenses/unnecessary salaries/etc.

I voted yes and I would really like this to happen - however ADAMs for age groupers and requiring them to meet the same standard as elite athletes I think is probably going too far - even though I understand that OOC testing is the only way to catch the smarter dopers. Banning age groupers who do not update their ADAMs schedule quickly and accurately enough and end up missing a couple tests because they went on vacation or had to work late and getting banned I think is too much to ask. Maybe there is a somewhat effective yet less restrictive way to do it?

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trail wrote:

9. I could see there maybe being a larger surcharge, let's call it $50, for those who want to be "podium eligible." If you're podium eligible you get placed. If you're not, you get your split times, but no placement information at all.


i think you're onto something, but i'd change it up a little. i think what you're suggesting is punitive, and it punishes someone who hasn't done anything wrong. he's simply asking not to be charged extra. however, if instead of "podium eligible" it was "WC eligible," then okay. we're giving him full value for his $375 or $700 or whatever he's paying, just, if he wants to qualify for nice or kona then part of that qualification is an anti-doping fund. i could see, perhaps, a graduated scale: $5 if he enters any race and wants to be WC eligible, $5 more upon entering the WC race.

trail wrote:
10. Unless my perception is wrong, which it could be, I think IM kind of picks on itself. It forged its own anti-doping path of its own agency, not because we asked it to.

there's backstory to this. les mcdonald rather petulantly, and quite publicly, kicked IM (and life time, powerman, maybe xterra, i don't remember them all) out of federation umbrella membership, back in 2004. then, in 2006, the ITU much more quietly ushered them back in. but, in 2004, if you're IM, and you're outside the umbrella, then you're outside WADA signatory status. the reason jim riccitello's officials program exists; the reason kate mittelstadt's anti-doping program exists; the reason IM is itself a WADA signatory and was considered an "IF equivalent"; traces back to this. to say it chose to "go down the anti-doping path of its own agency, not because we asked it to," isn't quite. we did kind of "ask it to."

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [MP1664] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
MP1664 wrote:
I haven’t answered the poll (no idea who’s posted it), but yes, I’d pay an extra £5 for testing - simply as I’m the eternal optimist who’d love to one day think sport is clean.

However. I don’t think it would achieve anything, as current doping control methods are ineffective at catching cheats. I’ve heard it described on several podcasts as an IQ test, rather than a drug test, as if you’re clever about it you won’t be caught.

There was a BBC documentary where a journalist who was decent amateur cyclist, microdosed EPO as an experiment. He experienced significant performance improvement with no trace detected on his biological passport.

So yeah, I’d pay simply because it sends the right message, however I don’t think it would achieve anything.

And the bio passport has been significantly weakened - to the point where it's essentially now worthless - because of the Salaas & Kreuziger cases: https://cyclingtips.com/...h-daily-news-digest/

Basically, it seems the passport is no longer going to be viable as a means of banning people, only additional OOC testing, which - as we are all well aware - is practically useless.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
as some of you may know - because some of you may be signatories - there's a petition out there (i've asked for the link, and i'll edit this post when i get it) that would oblige ironman to add $5 to everyone's entry, in every full or 70.3 worldwide. (see the poll on this.) here's what the petition asks for, as i understand it:

1. every podium earner at both WCs would be tested, blood and urine.
2. all podiums would be tested in all AGs at 10 of the roughly 150 IM races over these distances each year, and every year the races would rotate.
3. some OOC testing is provided for as well.
4. as a separate matter, all WC entrants would need to enter the ADAMs system, as pros do, whereby you register your whereabouts for the purpose of OOC testing.

the person heading this up is rodolphe von berg, father of pro triathlete rudy von berg, and rudy sr was a very good triathlete in his day and remains a top AG competitor. there are, according to rudy sr., about 2,500 current signatories. as well as i can tell this is simply a proposal for AG athletes.

benefits

5. we have a lot of AG doping most likely, esp at the highest levels. AG testing is spotty and sparse.
6. if you do the math, unless i'm off by a decimal point, the money is probably there. let me take a mad guess that 300,000 annually pay an entry fee into a full or half IM worldwide. in that case, $5 x all entrants = $1.5 million. if a full blood and urine test costs $1,500, then, 72 tests (3 x 24 AGs) x 12 races = roughly $1.3 million.

drawbacks or hurdles

7. that math above doesn't take into account "results management" and that number can be high. it's like paying for the FBI to investigate but not leaving any money left over for federal prosectors to bring cases. if you run up against just 1 intransigent, well funded, AGer who fights his doping test, that "litigation" can cost $hundreds of thousands.
8. you think AGers should be subject to ADAMs whereabouts requirements. sounds good. in my view, this could be chaos. i asked the head of USADA earlier this decade if his org was really ready for AG testing. he answered with an unqualfied yes, and rather indignant that i asked the question. we found out pretty quickly the answer was no, evidenced by the need for retroactive TUEs. if AGers can't manage the TUE process, i don't have a lot of faith in our ability to manage whereabouts requirements.

questions

9. most AGers who race IM aren't fighting for a podium spot. is it fair to ask them to pay for something they don't care about?
10. is it fair to task IM with 100 percent of the responsibility for managing this, collecting and deploying the money? why not $3 tacked on every annual federation membership, and if a federation chooses not do this, then, races held in its country can't be among the random 10 chosen? why not $1 for every tri bike you buy?
11. if this is good for IM, is it good for USAT nationals? for ITU AG WCs? why pick on IM?

that's the landscape on this, from my POV. i guess i'd like to hear yours. a slowtwitcher took a poll on his FB page on something like this; a pretty good sample size responded; i'm not going to give away the result, because of the poll just put up. please, answer the poll, and give us your thoughts below. rudy, if i've misrepresented the facts, please correct what i've written here.

Dan,

Answer me this (in your wisdom and experience).....What is the incentive for WTC to test more athletes and bust likely more athletes Pro and AG publicly?

Curious on your perspective.......

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
tilburs wrote:
Dan,

Answer me this (in your wisdom and experience).....What is the incentive for WTC to test more athletes and bust likely more athletes Pro and AG publicly?

Curious on your perspective.......

depends on what you mean by "WTC" tho - just as a point of order - they've rebranded the name of their company ironman. ironman corp. just, the reason i ask is, it depends on whether you mean IM's ownership, or the exec office. ownership? no incentive at all. disincentive. exec office? these folks - andrew, paula, et al - actually are enthusiasts themselves, and there is a gravity pulling them toward whatever moral good (and in a roundabout way brand good) anti-doping does them.

from a financial POV, purely from trek's perspective, specialized's perspective, from the perspective of pro team owners, i can't see that anti-doping has done anything but hurt cycling. another big bust doesn't cause geico or kentucky fried chicken to say, "that's it! that's the trigger that's got us into sponsoring a pro cycling team!" or cause a customer to run out and buy a bike. but when you inject notions of fair play, attention to rules, there's still a gravity that pulls us toward anti-doping measures and i think the executive office of IM feels that.

ironman's most important constituent is its customer. what will the rank and file registrant want? i find it unlikely that most ironman registrants will want to pay the extra money. i may be wrong. the only way i think this *works* is if ironman bifurcates the customer list into WC hopefuls versus everyone else, and puts together a plan that specifically targets the WC hopefuls and qualifiers, and asks them to help fund up the testing.

actually catching dopers at its races? does ironman want that? no. i wouldn't either. i'd rather give the "all clear" after a regimen of testing. but i haven't seen evidence yet of IM shrinking from popping a doper once it catches one. that said, your question prompts me to renew my question: why doesn't IM give results management to USADA? that's the e-verify of anti-doping. take all incentive out of everyone's hands. this is what i'd do unless USADA is just charging ironman too much money to take it on.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yes, all day long. this is also why we should be self policing out on the course for drafting and other offenses.
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I would rather pay $50 and have the ability to anonymously vote for three-ten people to be tested after every race I compete in. I'm that petty.
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It's a noble cause. I would pay $5 for every WTC race I do and another $5 on my USAT license. I would even pay an extra $10 on my license.

Re: 11

It doesn't seen USAT has the fortitude or desire to tackle age group doping. A few years ago I had some conversations with someone on the BOD and a few staff members. It seemed the consensus at the time was testing was a waste of time bc you'll only catch the dumb dopers and that an education program was all you needed. It seems they'd prefer to send out something in their magazine about doping and then go stick their head in the sand instead of confront this problem. Have you seen anything from USAT that would make me change my mind?

Nor do I think ITU has the balls or backbone to tackle this problem.

USA Cycling has a fee tacked onto some memberships (can't remember which) with their Ride Clean program. USA Cycling is catching just over 1 age group cyclist per month over the last 12-18mo. I have no doubts that USAT triathlon could do that, easily. Triathlon may be one sport where the pro field is cleaner than the AG field.

There was a club in MI who had a member publicly post about his T use posted pics on FB even. It took >4 calls to the USADA tip line for USADA to call back and even then their response was "ok thanks". Not sure USADA is ready for the onslaught of age group positive tests. You could add >50 positive cases to the list in the first 10 races of the season if you also did some targeted testing post race. If I'm wrong I'd contribute an extra $100 to the cause. I really don't think I'd be wrong though.

The problem comes with the ADAMs system. I don't think most AG athletes want to deal with this. In fact I think if you have 100 who were all in for the $5 or $10 but then told they had to do ADAMs my guess is 25-40% bail on the idea all together.

Now for #1 you don't have to test every podium. If you test most of the top 5 M30-69 you're going to get a pretty decent positive rate. 8 Age groups X top 5 in each AG = 40 tests. I'd be surprised if you only got 2 positive tests or 5% of the podium.

Anyway I'd love to see a program in place, from Ironman, USAT and ITU. Sadly I don't really see it coming to fruition. What's the incentive for any of those groups to do anything but lip service for a clean(er) AG field?

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Mar 3, 19 14:38
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I can't control if my peers are racing clean and I have doubts on how a $5 contribution is going to make a difference in that aspect of competition, however, an extra $5 is not going to stop me from entering a race if I really want to do it. Of course if I am willing to pay an extra $5 for drug testing will I be expected to pay an additional $5 for draft marshals? What about mechanical bike doping? Cheaters will always find a way to cheat. I'm not going to lose sleep over them or let them keep me from participating in something I enjoy doing.
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
desert dude wrote:


USA Cycling has a fee tacked onto some memberships (can't remember which) with their Ride Clean program.

$50 for a pro road license.
$20 for pro MTB or Cat 1 road/track/CX
$5 for Cat 1 MTB or Cat 2/3 road/track/CX

Those are annual, not per race.
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
72 tests is 1728 tests short of testing all Kona qualifiers.... :(

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
Quote Reply
Re: Pay $5 for extra anti-doping? ADAMs? Y or N? [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ericMPro wrote:
72 tests is 1728 tests short of testing all Kona qualifiers.... :(

That was 72 tests per race.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
Quote Reply

Prev Next