PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy

Feb 26, 19 6:53

Post #1 of 26 (16508 views)

I've been a long time KK fan, riding on their Road Machine for years and years. I recently decided to upgrade to a direct drive trainer and decided to stay brand loyal. The experience has been punishingly painful.

Purchased from TriSports. They have been exceptional thus far in their assistance, definitely cannot fault them.

First trainer arrives broken in the box (plastic housing/handle damaged). Contact KK because the packaging was pretty tight, most likely to have been damaged prior to shipment. In addition rocker plate was locked up so figured this was a manufacturing issue. Response took a week and was basically "Too bad".

TriSports is great and sends me a second unit. Life has gotten in the way so unfortunately I've only ridden 3x since the replacement arrived. Two FTP tests and a 45min ride. Go to ride this AM and the power unit is shot. Battery pack is working fine as I tried multiple battery packs. The lights on the battery pack are lit but the the trainer's indicator light is not coming on. Worked fine on Saturday.

I'd say maybe I just have poor luck. Unfortunately I'm not the first one that I've heard of early in this trainer's life that have had to go through multiple units to find a working one. The other users who have reported failures also had a hard time getting a response from KK.

Totally possibly that my unit is just one of the original production units and things have improved as I have a super early serial number. But hard not to think that this device was introduced to the market without sufficient testing...

Hopefully can get a refund and move on to a more reputable dd trainer. Loved the lateral movement but can't be replacing trainers every few weeks.

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [cmd111183] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 19 7:56

Post #2 of 26 (16396 views)

Yeah I crossed it off my list after watching the below video review, and hearing his experiences with their smart units in general...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5-9JmEnh8A

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [cmd111183] [ In reply to ]

Feb 26, 19 23:57

Post #3 of 26 (16116 views)

These are all some of the reasons I stayed away from "smart trainers" and stuck with a $99 on sale Performance Mag trainer. It's simple, portable & I design my own workouts. If I want to ride with someone we'll meet up for a garage ride or on the road if it is nice enough. Otherwise, some good music or a movie/catch up on DVR like FIS World Nordic Championships. Smart Trainers have a lot of downsides I don't care for, apply the K.I.S.S. rule. It works.

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [cmd111183] [ In reply to ]

Feb 27, 19 1:04

Post #4 of 26 (16089 views)

I came across that video review the other day. I didn't even know KK made a direct drive trainer, which I feel is fairly indicative of how the cycling media view the company. I have multiple cycling feeds in my daily browsing.

I have a KK smart unit mounted on an original RnR frame. I was initially against there being any ANT+ output, but have so far enjoyed the unit with no problems at all. Connects easily, seems to be pretty consistent when I calibrate it, and otherwise been a good addition.

That said, the direct drives do seem to be picking up a reputation for poor reliability. It's a shame as the rocking motion their machines allow is really welcome.

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]

Feb 27, 19 1:19

Post #5 of 26 (16083 views)

SBRcanuck wrote:

Yeah I crossed it off my list after watching the below video review, and hearing his experiences with their smart units in general...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5-9JmEnh8A

From the specs I though that trainer sounded great, but saw that review and crossed the R1 off.

http://www.jt10000.com/

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [cmd111183] [ In reply to ]

Feb 27, 19 2:05

Post #6 of 26 (16059 views)

I'm still trying to get a hold of one to throw it though my Lama Lab tests... No luck sourcing one. But with the reports rolling in, that's a good thing.

The trainer industry needs to step up their game. The last 12 months have been rough when it comes to consumer confidence.

Shane Miller - GPLama
YouTube | Web | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook | Strava

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [JerseyBigfoot] [ In reply to ]

Feb 27, 19 5:15

Post #7 of 26 (15975 views)

JerseyBigfoot wrote:

That said, the direct drives do seem to be picking up a reputation for poor reliability. It's a shame as the rocking motion their machines allow is really welcome.

Yeah, the "rock and roll" motion was appealing. And the hardwire USB direct connectivity was promising, too. Most of the time, I don't have many wireless problems. But on the occasion when it happens mid-workout, it's maddening.

I really wanted this to be good. :(

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Last edited by: gary p: Feb 27, 19 6:06

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [gplama] [ In reply to ]

Feb 27, 19 5:47

Post #8 of 26 (15911 views)

gplama wrote:

The trainer industry needs to step up their game. The last 12 months have been rough when it comes to consumer confidence.

For what they are, they're bound to be in the pretty cheap/less reliable componentry given their cost.

We think $1000 for a bike trainer sounds silly, but when you know how much industrial quality controls like servo motors and drives actually cost.........yeah. If you built a smart trainer using that level of parts (that would be super accurate, super reliable, etc...).......you'd be looking at a $4000 trainer. Not $1000.

I it isn't super necessary to have a super rapidly changing "slope" on the power curve of a trainer. Meaning, direct drive electric isn't how I'd go. I think you could more reliably do something like a cheapo engine dyno where you alter the vanes in a fluid device instead. Or something like a Nuvinci bike hub being moved by the trainer and that hub is in-line with a normal fluid trainer.

Also, I don't see it super necessary for all of them to include power measurement. Just needs a force command from somewhere like a head unit or Zwift for "more" or "less". Let the power meter on the bike and other stuff dictate that.

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [Rocky M] [ In reply to ]

Feb 27, 19 6:20

Post #9 of 26 (15868 views)

Rocky M wrote:

These are all some of the reasons I stayed away from "smart trainers" and stuck with a $99 on sale Performance Mag trainer. It's simple, portable & I design my own workouts. If I want to ride with someone we'll meet up for a garage ride or on the road if it is nice enough. Otherwise, some good music or a movie/catch up on DVR like FIS World Nordic Championships. Smart Trainers have a lot of downsides I don't care for, apply the K.I.S.S. rule. It works.

definitely some upsides and downsides. I do enjoy with my smart trainer not worrying about shifting to hit power numbers. I just put my head down and pedal. and the direct drive doesn't sound like a jet engine taking off. but I still have my old cycleops fluid 2 trainer packed away somewhere for when my elite direto dies someday.

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [cmd111183] [ In reply to ]

Feb 27, 19 7:05

Post #10 of 26 (15823 views)

I will update my post for the time being. Even though I purchased through TriSports, Kurt Kinetic stepped up and sent me another new unit second day air (not cheap for weight) to hopefully set me right.

Unfortunately it appears that the first production batch had bad fuses, which explains why both units I received did not work as they were from the first batch. Unfortunately for them they did not recall, which leads to a pretty poor user experience. I'd be curious to know what their failure rate is, maybe it didn't warrant a full scale recall, but pretty tough to have your first production of a new to market product go south...

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]

Feb 27, 19 9:58

Post #11 of 26 (15738 views)

burnthesheep wrote:

gplama wrote:

The trainer industry needs to step up their game. The last 12 months have been rough when it comes to consumer confidence.

For what they are, they're bound to be in the pretty cheap/less reliable componentry given their cost.

We think $1000 for a bike trainer sounds silly, but when you know how much industrial quality controls like servo motors and drives actually cost.........yeah. If you built a smart trainer using that level of parts (that would be super accurate, super reliable, etc...).......you'd be looking at a $4000 trainer. Not $1000.

I it isn't super necessary to have a super rapidly changing "slope" on the power curve of a trainer. Meaning, direct drive electric isn't how I'd go. I think you could more reliably do something like a cheapo engine dyno where you alter the vanes in a fluid device instead. Or something like a Nuvinci bike hub being moved by the trainer and that hub is in-line with a normal fluid trainer.

Also, I don't see it super necessary for all of them to include power measurement. Just needs a force command from somewhere like a head unit or Zwift for "more" or "less". Let the power meter on the bike and other stuff dictate that.

And yet Racermate (computrainer) managed to do it near flawlessly and reliably with their technology developed.....late 80's?.....

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]

Feb 27, 19 10:31

Post #12 of 26 (15713 views)

Tl.dr: the modern trainer industry is a disaster of poor engineering

I've used a number of computrainers and they were all pretty solid as far as control and accuracy goes. Contrasting that with the two kickr snap and half dozen or so kickr v3 units I've used and they were all horribly inaccurate. This is super frustrating to me because there's no new technology in play, basically if a problem is already solved there's no excuse for you to get it wrong again.

Also, the reason they all measure power is because the software interface doesn't take a "less" or "more" command. It takes a power number and the trainer matches that. This is why, for example, trainerroad power match generates a power curve of the difference between your power meter and the trainer and then uses that for control. They'd need to revamp how the computer connects to the trainer. Plus they all measure power using nothing more than wheel speed (tacx neo is the exception here). Cost isn't going to decrease if they remove this feature.

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]

Feb 27, 19 10:54

Post #13 of 26 (15687 views)

imswimmer328 wrote:

....Plus they all measure power using nothing more than wheel speed (tacx neo is the exception here).

Is that true? Elite Direto has it's optical torque sensor but I don't really know details of how that works.

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [cmd111183] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 19 4:30

Post #14 of 26 (15496 views)

Another update for those who care about the KK experience/service side of things.

Received the 3rd trainer in the mail last night. Set it up, updated firmware and calibrated. Went to ride this morning and there is zero resistance. Not with their app, not with TrainerRoad, not on ERG mode and not on Resistance mode. In addition there is a loud knocking sound as the flywheel is grabbing the rear mech and pushing the cassette forward.

It's baffling to me that there can be this many production issues. I just send a strongly worded note, hopefully someone will contact me today. At this point I'm out 2.5 months worth of bike training time as a result of this problem. To be as eloquent as possible given the gentleman I am - I'm fucking pissed.

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [cmd111183] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 19 5:35

Post #15 of 26 (15448 views)

cmd111183 wrote:

Another update for those who care about the KK experience/service side of things.

Received the 3rd trainer in the mail last night. Set it up, updated firmware and calibrated. Went to ride this morning and there is zero resistance. Not with their app, not with TrainerRoad, not on ERG mode and not on Resistance mode. In addition there is a loud knocking sound as the flywheel is grabbing the rear mech and pushing the cassette forward.

It's baffling to me that there can be this many production issues. I just send a strongly worded note, hopefully someone will contact me today. At this point I'm out 2.5 months worth of bike training time as a result of this problem. To be as eloquent as possible given the gentleman I am - I'm fucking pissed.

can you get a refund? That's the direction I'd go at this point. You can get a Hammer, Direto, Kickr core for less money than the KK R1 and at least those have been out awhile. Not saying there are zero production issues but you've gone through 3 trainers which is ridiculous. And the rocker plate thing is not going to carry them anymore. anybody can checkout zwift rocker plate facebook group and see all the stupid easy and cheap solutions out there that do the same thing.

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [cmd111183] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 19 8:24

Post #16 of 26 (15377 views)

My experience has been mostly good with the R1 although receiving a bad initial unit was not a fun surprise. My Kurt Kinetic R1 trainer arrived in late December having a bearing issue and needing the circuit board replaced. Kinetic support was great for me as they swapped out the R1 in a couple days and it has been working great since. I do like the swaying/rocking feeling when I ride probably since I started indoor training with the previous KK RnR wheel on trainers a few years ago. I use Garmin PM pedals for Power/Cadence when training so power is measured fairly consistent whether on the R1, smart rollers or outside but I don't rely on the R1 so that maybe an issue for some. Both my Canyon Endurace and BMC TT can't shift into largest cassette on the R1 as the RD Cage hits a cover on the R1 and it is not a silent trainer for sure.

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [BRGUST65] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 19 15:09

Post #17 of 26 (15278 views)

Other issue I have is that no cadence is reported. Is that true of this device?

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [cmd111183] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 19 16:05

Post #18 of 26 (15246 views)

Cadence is reported by the R1, not sure on accuracy as I don't really use it

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 19 16:29

Post #19 of 26 (15232 views)

SBRcanuck wrote:

And yet Racermate (computrainer) managed to do it near flawlessly and reliably with their technology developed.....late 80's?.....

Yep. As much as people like their wireless gizmos, when it doesn't work it just isn't worth the "convenience". With BLE and ANT+ dropouts wreaking havoc on Zwift users someone in the trainer industry just needs to admit that over a 45-90 minute workout or race requiring no dropouts, that a wired connection is going to be more reliable. This was discussed on the lated Zwiftcast and the argument that it's the fault of other wireless signals in the home (like a router) is not a valid one. Everyone has wireless cross traffic in their homes and if you live in a condo or apartment there may be many, many channels on the wireless spectrum you can't control. I'm all for trainers that have a hard wired-USB port for people that require a reliable connection.

-------------------
Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [Timtek] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 19 17:37

Post #20 of 26 (15199 views)

Timtek wrote:

This was discussed on the lated Zwiftcast and the argument that it's the fault of other wireless signals in the home (like a router) is not a valid one. Everyone has wireless cross traffic in their homes and if you live in a condo or apartment there may be many, many channels on the wireless spectrum you can't control. I'm all for trainers that have a hard wired-USB port for people that require a reliable connection.

ZwiftCast panellist checking in... I stand by the statement that it's not ANT+ or BLE itself to blame. If you put it in isolation, it'll work 100% of the time. And from quite a distance.

To properly resolve the issue of trainer dropouts, we need to understand the issues.... otherwise you're just painting over the rust.

The known issues:

- Ch10 on the 2.4Ghz wifi is almost smack-bang where ANT+ operates, 2.457Mhz. If you flood that with traffic on a router/access point with quality antenna/signal strength, you'll get dropouts. Wifi Ch1 on the other hand is far enough away from ANT+ to cause problems.

- Microwave ovens with shitty shielding cause dropouts. FACT. Although that's disputed in a few community FAQ posts.

- See the FCC website for a TON of devices that'll want up the 2.457Mhz range: https://fccid.io/...=2457&upper=2457

In short - Interference isn't only valid, it IS the problem.

Sticking a cable into a trainer will bypass this problem.... although then you've now excluded all Apple users (iPhone, AppleTV). I'm not against it. I'm all for better tech and better user experiences. However hell will freeze over before we'll be plugging wires from smart trainers into those devices.

Shane Miller - GPLama
YouTube | Web | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook | Strava

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [gplama] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 19 17:58

Post #21 of 26 (15174 views)

gplama wrote:

ZwiftCast panellist checking in... I stand by the statement that it's not ANT+ or BLE itself to blame. If you put it in isolation, it'll work 100% of the time. And from quite a distance.

To properly resolve the issue of trainer dropouts, we need to understand the issues.... otherwise you're just painting over the rust.

The known issues:

- Ch10 on the 2.4Ghz wifi is almost smack-bang where ANT+ operates, 2.457Mhz. If you flood that with traffic on a router/access point with quality antenna/signal strength, you'll get dropouts. Wifi Ch1 on the other hand is far enough away from ANT+ to cause problems.

Thank you for chiming in Shane! You made it very clear on the podcast that it's a BFD and you were right.

I've been trying to troubleshoot my dropouts which have required me to analyze the wifi spectrum in my building. Since my network is not listed here (SSID hidden), I'm still counting four (4) devices of other people's wireless routers over channel 10 beaming in my home. I'm averaging ~4 dropouts per session and my workouts are in the 60 minute range since it's my off-season.

Quote:

I'm not against it. I'm all for better tech and better user experiences. However hell will freeze over before we'll be plugging wires from smart trainers into those devices.

I've just been reminded that computrainers actually work hard-wired to zwift. That must have been godfathered in or something.

I thought this topic was important enough to start a new thread on it. It's here: https://forum.slowtwitch.com/.../?page=unread#unread

-------------------
Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram

Last edited by: Timtek: Mar 1, 19 18:02

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [cmd111183] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 19 19:36

Post #22 of 26 (15127 views)

I had a rockandroll smart trainer. It was pretty good for what it was... but to run it through my tv/pc i had to run it through the damn companion app... so there were tons of dropouts, requiring app resets. But i loved the rocking.

I thought about the r1, but given that i figured it would have growing pains, and it might leave me wanting more (noise), i skipped it.

I went all in and got a tacx neo 2. I figured that being an evolutionary product would be good for reliability. I am 100% happy. Very accurate, very consistant, no calibration, quiet, and a pretty good amount of movement. No regrets!

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [gplama] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 19 17:25

Post #23 of 26 (14946 views)

gplama wrote:

Timtek wrote:

This was discussed on the lated Zwiftcast and the argument that it's the fault of other wireless signals in the home (like a router) is not a valid one. Everyone has wireless cross traffic in their homes and if you live in a condo or apartment there may be many, many channels on the wireless spectrum you can't control. I'm all for trainers that have a hard wired-USB port for people that require a reliable connection.

ZwiftCast panellist checking in... I stand by the statement that it's not ANT+ or BLE itself to blame. If you put it in isolation, it'll work 100% of the time. And from quite a distance.

To properly resolve the issue of trainer dropouts, we need to understand the issues.... otherwise you're just painting over the rust.

The known issues:

- Ch10 on the 2.4Ghz wifi is almost smack-bang where ANT+ operates, 2.457Mhz. If you flood that with traffic on a router/access point with quality antenna/signal strength, you'll get dropouts. Wifi Ch1 on the other hand is far enough away from ANT+ to cause problems.

- Microwave ovens with shitty shielding cause dropouts. FACT. Although that's disputed in a few community FAQ posts.

- See the FCC website for a TON of devices that'll want up the 2.457Mhz range: https://fccid.io/...=2457&upper=2457

In short - Interference isn't only valid, it IS the problem.

Sticking a cable into a trainer will bypass this problem.... although then you've now excluded all Apple users (iPhone, AppleTV). I'm not against it. I'm all for better tech and better user experiences. However hell will freeze over before we'll be plugging wires from smart trainers into those devices.

Well the usb ports do not work on the Kinetic trainers anyway, I was told a month ago they never updated the "whatever" to make them work on the new power units and no time frame to fix it

Yellowfin Endurance Coaching and Bike Fits
USAT Level 1, USAC Level 3

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [gplama] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 19 18:19

Post #24 of 26 (14897 views)

gplama wrote:

ZwiftCast panellist checking in... I stand by the statement that it's not ANT+ or BLE itself to blame. If you put it in isolation, it'll work 100% of the time. And from quite a distance.

Getting into semantics, but I'd argue that they are to blame. Or at least ANT+. On my bike, my ANT+ can be expected to operate in relative isolation, except for transient interference. The use-case of a smart trainer is entirely different. It should be expected that a smart trainer is operating in close, static proximity to wireless routers, household appliances, phones, wireless headphones, noisy (in the RF sense) computer power supplies, etc. Because trainers are themselves household appliances, and most households have all those things I just listed. Expecting a smart trainer consumer to cater to a laundry list of "RF interference best practices" for core functionality is not reasonable to me. I just want to plug it in and have it work, out of the box. The 90's called, and it wants manual channel de-confliction within the 2.4Ghz band back. <insert the ain't nobody got time for that meme>

BLE was designed for the modern world. It's alphabet soup of FHSS, AFH, and TDMA are specifically designed so it can operate in the chaotic storm of stuff in the 2.4Ghz range.

ANT has some frequency agility, but it's controlled at the application layer, and I suspect that some (most/all?) trainer manufacturers simply don't use it. With BLE it's at the physical layer so application designers get it for free without having to think about it.

Last edited by: trail: Mar 5, 19 18:22

Re: PSA - Kurt Kinetic R1 Trainer is a Definite DO NOT Buy [surfNJmatt] [ In reply to ]

Mar 18, 19 13:42

Post #25 of 26 (14603 views)

surfNJmatt wrote:

Well the usb ports do not work on the Kinetic trainers anyway, I was told a month ago they never updated the "whatever" to make them work on the new power units and no time frame to fix it

It does work and the protocol is available for other applications to use. Perfpro uses it now. Zwift has the specifications and said it is in the pipeline but they aren't committing to any time for delivery.

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