this is turning into a little stack and reacharound with dan and tom ;)

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TEAM F3 Undurance

Glad you can tell more from a pic than asking him, which I did this am.

I don't know how you got on to position of bars to BB, my points were about similarities in overall fit.

My idea is spending winter on AZ single track, and racing down numerous MTB-style decents at Chino, Grasshoppers, etc. Perhaps you feel more comfortable with a relaxed fit but I don't agree it's more appropriate for every rider.

Cool. But, was the question "Are your road and gravel positions the same?", or "Is your gravel position the same as your TdF position?"...because the answers could be different (and the pics imply as much that they are.)


In order to determine "similarities in overall fit", we need a point of reference to judge the relative locations of the touch points, no? So, with an assumption of constant crank length across the comparisons, the BB is the most appropriate point. That's the whole basis of stack and reach in the first place, right?

How do you determine "sameness of fit"?

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Thanks for the tip-- I picked one up! I might sell the Tarmac, GT Grade and Specialized Epic and just use this one with 2 sets of wheels. I would have done the same thing with the GT grade (love that bike) except that it only takes up to a 35 mm tire so it doesn't quite cut it as a MTB.

Now I just need to figure out what parts I want.

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Coach of TriForce Triathlon Team

My personal point of view from riding extensively on pure road racing, and gravel racing from tame to gnarly conditions, is that your stack and reach (touch points) should definitely not be the same. I think if they are, you're doing one or both bikes wrong in terms of fit.

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No problem...and for those of you who bought one, I've got a cable routing tip for those of you using cable actuated shifters.

The cable routing on this frame is only mostly internal. There are replaceable cable stops for the shifters on the downtube for internal routing. Then, there's small holes near the BB where the cable is intended to come out, route over the outside of the BB, and then back into the frame behind the BB. Fishing the cables through those holes at the BB can be a bit of a pain. So, take a bit of time before assembling the bike to make cable replacement easier AND protect the cables in that exposed section. Here's how:

Before you install the BB, get yourself some lengths of the small white plastic tubing typically used inside of rigid-link cable housing (e.g. Jagwire Link). Route that tubing through the frame (and out and around the BB) first so that the tail ends stick out of the frame openings near the derailleurs. At the cable stop end, feed the tubing through the cable stop, cut it, and then flare the end (using a large nail tip, or something) so it can't drop past the opening in the stop. Now there's a continuous cable liner going all the way from the cable stop at the downtube through the openings near the derailleurs. What this does is keep the cables from being exposed to the elements under the BB, and also makes it infinitely easier to replace the cables when it comes time to do that. Feed the wire cables into the cable stop at the downtube, and they come out right at the derailleur openings.

Also, if you're using cable-actuated brakes, I highly recommend using Jagwire Link housing all the way from the brake lever to both brakes. The opening in the frame is easily large enough for the Link "beads", and you can place one of the rubber "bumper beads" over the links at either end of the frame openings to keep the length of housing from moving. Using solid housing links for the brake cables goes a long way to making sure cable-actuated disc brakes perform well IMHO.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Yeah...that's basically the point I was trying to make.

Dan seems to be stuck on the notion of having one of these bikes be just as good as a pure road bike just by doing a wheel/tire swap (at least that's how I'm interpreting it), and so his motivation is to keep his position the same for both. But, like you, I think that's doing his non-pavement setup a disservice.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I guess it depends on what angle people of coming at this from and what range of conditions they are typically seeing in riding and racing.

If we are talking about just hard packed dirt roads, then sure, I guess your "gravel bike" could be pretty darn close to your road race setup.

Most of the mixed surface races I've done incorporate pavement, gravel, rail trail, light single track, double track, farm fields etc...I don't want to be in my road position bombing down a class 4 road in Vermont!

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Got a chance to do the rescale (based on rim outer diameter) and overlay, lining up the BBs. Looks to me like his bars are higher and further back (as judged by the brake hood positions), along with his saddle quite a bit lower. Crank length appears to be ~same.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Well, now it's back up to $529.... :(

I am wondering if thy any chance the OP or anyone that bought the frame have a screen shot or email with the sale price?.

I measured my road vs gravel position this morning. For gravel, I'm 1cm shorter on reach, and although I didn't measure exactly I'd estimate 1-2cm higher stack. That's not much difference.
But, maybe my road position just isn't that aggressive.

This is tricky subject IMO. Things that complicate recommendations on fit between the two bikes:

- how aggressive is your road position to start with?
- what terrain are you typically riding with your "gravel" bike
- is your gravel bike setup too aggressive but you don't know it?

I measured my position between bikes and my saddle to bar drop on my road bike is 8cm, compared to only 2cm on my mixed condition bike

My saddle setback is on my road bike is 2cm more forward
My reach from tip of saddle (same saddles) to hand touch points is 2cm longer on road bike
My saddle height is 8mm higher on my road bike.
My brake hoods are turned up more compared to my road bike

This all adds up to quite a different feel, and my mixed condition bike is setup in a way is that a lot more capable of handing a wide range of terrain effectively.

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I think your "mixed condition" is a little more hardcore than I ride.
I do mainly gravel roads on my CX bike.. so a position close to my roadie isn't that unusual?

If I did more single track or ski trails I would probably change it up.
I do lower the saddle about 1cm and tilt the hoods up slightly for CX racing... so both of those things would shorten the stack reach a little bit further.

As for "too aggressive", how would one even determine that?
My longest day on the gravel bike last year was 200km, with 170km of that gravel, with loads of climbing and it felt amazing, so I think I'm dialed in.

Finally got around to opening up my box from Performance and there is no headset. Did yours happen to come with a headset?

Mine did, it was in the small box (in with the frame) of the small parts.

Mike

Thanks. I only have the frame, fork and some packaging. No small box.

Anything else in the small parts box? Like thru axles?

yes - thru axles, spacers, top cap, ehh some other odds and ends (cable stops, etc.)

Yes, a box with the headset.

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Coach of TriForce Triathlon Team

Great. Thanks.

I had it shipped to a Perforamnce bike store and they had opened the box to inspect for damage during shipping. I suspect they took out the small parts box and forgot to put it back in. I’ll give them a call later today to ask but I picked it up over a week ago so who knows where the little box is now.

Is the frame supposed to come with the 135mm inserts? Mine only seems to have the thru-axle ones.

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Strava

Mine did, but it was the 2017 model.

Here's what the Fuji site says about the frame:
"A6-SL Super Butted Aluminum, semi-internal cable routing, flat-mount disc & convertible axle dropout"

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

If they are just QR versions of the inserts already installed on the dropouts, then those are definitely missing. Guess I'll be giving Performance/Fuji a call tomorrow.

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Strava

There should also be a special QR nut that works in conjunction with the driveside dropout (a regular nut doesn't fit).

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/