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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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styrrell wrote:
The fastest bike in a race doesn't need all of this stuff (assuming that there are food/water hand-ups when the race is long enough).

My strategy for a IM race is to get 1 hand up, maybe 2. 1 aerobottle on the frame I bottle on bars and one at about 60-70 miles seems to work fine. A pitstop, tubular Co2, allen wrench, razor blade and a races worth of Gus will all fit in bento or taped in between the seat rails. You have to look very carefully to see any of the supplies other than the Bento, which is hidden when I'm actually riding.

Ah, bento boxes. They are a necessary evil on long training rides, but my knees (keep them in, right?) constantly hit it, especially since bentos inevitably flop to one side or the other, and disrupt my turning sometimes. The trek SC apparently has a solid mount to stop the flopping, maybe that's the sauce.

Taping things to rails sounds great, except tape falls off. Especially on crappy northern roads with constant freeze cracks.

The shiv bladder does ruin the downtube, so that's why I think a nosecone/integrated bottle would be better. I'd guess 75% of ironman bikes race with keel/aerobars bottles. Why do "kind of aero" when you can do "windtunnel optimized" aero keel bottle?
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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [cowardlydragon] [ In reply to ]
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cowardlydragon wrote:
If anything, that's what most bikes look like without the design suggestions I'm making. Crap bolted, taped, mounted on everywhere, without clean design of integrated components. Notice how it all sticks out of the basic frame? ... Here are the aero stuff recently done by "people with wind tunnels": nose cone (Specialized), lower triangle bottle (P4), rear compartment (Trek SC). All of which are UCI illegal if permanent. They all are separated enough in the airflow that they won't interfere with each other as a whole. Why not do them all?

I think a lot of people are missing your point. Kinda like it took years and years for Detroit-based engineers to realize that real-world drivers who put miles on their cars wanted lots of compartments and cupholders in their cars, heck, many drivers were even willing to buy a car based just on those.

About bikes, you are absolutely right, good design could make a bike a totally practical long-distance racing and training machine while still being super aero and super fast. Cervelo proved it with their initial bottle solution, Trek proved it with their rear draftbox solution, Specialized proved it with their integrated drink system. And our products (a few more are coming) are also trying to make streamlined and integrated storage solutions more of a reality, even for bikes that weren't necessarily designed for it. And, yes, we are going to be making some very sleek storage solutions for the P5 as well.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [cowardlydragon] [ In reply to ]
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cowardlydragon wrote:

Ah, bento boxes. They are a necessary evil on long training rides, but my knees (keep them in, right?) constantly hit it, especially since bentos inevitably flop to one side or the other, and disrupt my turning sometimes. The trek SC apparently has a solid mount to stop the flopping, maybe that's the sauce.


Fyi, our Speedpacks don't flop side-to-side at all. And we have a bolt-on Speedpack (Speedpack 480SC) that is compatible with top-tube mounting bosses, as currently on the Trek speed concept and a few of the Giant trinity tri bikes. The bolt-on 480SC is even more rigid in terms of side-to-side play.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

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Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Dec 15, 11 21:01
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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
you can mount your bottles and food however you want for training rides, aero doesn't matter then.

I am still waiting for someone to make a more aero trainer. I mean, the fan in my basement just slows me down.
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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Kinda like it took years and years for Detroit-based engineers to realize that real-world drivers who put miles on their cars wanted lots of compartments and cupholders in their cars, heck, many drivers were even willing to buy a car based just on those.

The P5 is the equivalent of a race car, not a family sedan.

I'm happy with a purpose built race vehicle, not a compromise machine.
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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [matto] [ In reply to ]
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Admittedly I'm more of a cyclist than a triathlonist (for now) but I'd have said for something like an IM you'd want (to keep with the automotive analogy) more of a grand tourer than an out and out sports car…
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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [cowardlydragon] [ In reply to ]
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cowardlydragon wrote:
styrrell wrote:
The fastest bike in a race doesn't need all of this stuff (assuming that there are food/water hand-ups when the race is long enough).

My strategy for a IM race is to get 1 hand up, maybe 2. 1 aerobottle on the frame I bottle on bars and one at about 60-70 miles seems to work fine. A pitstop, tubular Co2, allen wrench, razor blade and a races worth of Gus will all fit in bento or taped in between the seat rails. You have to look very carefully to see any of the supplies other than the Bento, which is hidden when I'm actually riding.


Ah, bento boxes. They are a necessary evil on long training rides, but my knees (keep them in, right?) constantly hit it, especially since bentos inevitably flop to one side or the other, and disrupt my turning sometimes. The trek SC apparently has a solid mount to stop the flopping, maybe that's the sauce.

Taping things to rails sounds great, except tape falls off. Especially on crappy northern roads with constant freeze cracks.

The shiv bladder does ruin the downtube, so that's why I think a nosecone/integrated bottle would be better. I'd guess 75% of ironman bikes race with keel/aerobars bottles. Why do "kind of aero" when you can do "windtunnel optimized" aero keel bottle?

The main problem is that having a variable mass in the steering mechanism is not secure and will affect a lot the manoeuvrability of the bike. Fork, handlebar, shifter, brake levers and brake weigh 1.5-2kg, if you add 1kg of water, the steering will become noticeably slower.

http://cds-0.blogspot.com
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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [cframe] [ In reply to ]
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cframe wrote:
Admittedly I'm more of a cyclist than a triathlonist (for now) but I'd have said for something like an IM you'd want (to keep with the automotive analogy) more of a grand tourer than an out and out sports car…

Not if you can bike under 5 hours.
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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [cframe] [ In reply to ]
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Admittedly I'm more of a cyclist than a triathlonist (for now) but I'd have said for something like an IM you'd want (to keep with the automotive analogy) more of a grand tourer than an out and out sports car…

Indeed. With all due respect, many of the people doing the longer triathlons these days, Ironman's in particular, would if viewed through the lens of road cycling would be in the sportif category. It's the distance that is the challenge, and shaving every second or minute off their time is not a top priority for them. They want to finish it.

I ventured into this potential shark-tank recently in a blog I wrote suggesting that, for more than a few triathletes, they may be "better" off doing an ironman on a road bike!

http://stevefleck.blogspot.com/...on-on-road-bike.html



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [Epic-o] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sure the WB on the bars changes the handling but not so much as I notice. I also have my bento there, behind the bottle on top of the stem. My knees hit it if its behind the stem.

Styrrell
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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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styrrell wrote:
I'm sure the WB on the bars changes the handling but not so much as I notice. I also have my bento there, behind the bottle on top of the stem. My knees hit it if its behind the stem.

How much does your bento box weigh?

http://cds-0.blogspot.com
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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [Epic-o] [ In reply to ]
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The Speedpack ( aero bento box ) is 64g.
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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [Epic-o] [ In reply to ]
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For a IM, which is the only time I use it whatever the box weighs, maybe 80 grams plus what ever a 2 CO2 cartridges and 4 gels weigh. My overall "front end" weight is still pretty low. My bars are custom, Al stem, basebar and extensions with 0 adjustablity, the Profile WB fit in between with no straps of adaptors.

It might be noticeable in a crit, but I don't have any issues with handling in a tri.

Styrrell
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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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styrrell wrote:
For a IM, which is the only time I use it whatever the box weighs, maybe 80 grams plus what ever a 2 CO2 cartridges and 4 gels weigh. My overall "front end" weight is still pretty low. My bars are custom, Al stem, basebar and extensions with 0 adjustablity, the Profile WB fit in between with no straps of adaptors.

It might be noticeable in a crit, but I don't have any issues with handling in a tri.


We are talking about 1kg of water. It's normal that you couldn't notice a tiny weight increase like that one. Rafael sells a TT bike with a nose cone/integrated bottle http://vonrafael.com/en/sports-r011.html# but it's pretty small, maybe a half litre capacity

http://cds-0.blogspot.com
Last edited by: Epic-o: Dec 16, 11 7:23
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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [Epic-o] [ In reply to ]
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I'm pretty sure the profile aerobottle is less than a liter, but I don't quite get what your trying to say. I'd like the weight lower on the frame in an ideal situation, but their isn't an easy way to accomplish that. The way I'm set up their is little if any aero penalty with liquids. I need to get a hand up once in a cool IM maybe 2x in a hot one.

Literally tens of thousands of riders have ridden with a bottle on the aerobars without mishap, so its not like the idea is untested.

Styrrell
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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [Epic-o] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe I'm just not a delicate flower but having a full size bottle on my bars didn't make any noticeable difference tearing ass down big savage mountain.

and that is about as insane as tri courses get as far as handling. its usually a non issue.

I'll add it to the red herring list, the same one the "isn't that disc wheel tough in the wind?!" is on.





Epic-o wrote:
The main problem is that having a variable mass in the steering mechanism is not secure and will affect a lot the manoeuvrability of the bike. Fork, handlebar, shifter, brake levers and brake weigh 1.5-2kg, if you add 1kg of water, the steering will become noticeably slower.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [Epic-o] [ In reply to ]
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Steering on a bicycle is usually done without turning the handlebars very much, except at low speeds. Steering is done by leaning the bike. The mass of the handlebars (or things attached to them) shouldn't appreciably affect maneuverability at speed unless the mass is located way off-axis, and it's not necessary to put random shit really far off-axis because there are a plethora of convenient locations that are pretty close to the steering axis. Putting weight in a nosecone would slow down steering response, but not by much--the bigger question, though, is whether that's a bad thing.

How often do you spend going slow on a tri bike? The answer should be as little as possible. Therefore, the angular rate of rotation caused by a given torque applied to the handlebars is essentially irrelevant for the majority of riding conditions. The argument you're making is analogous to saying that a NASCAR shouldn't have a certain performance mod that will help out on the track because it needs to be able to handle 1% better on pit road. The mod won't hurt at high speed, in fact, it would definitely help. Stability in handling is important at normal riding speeds, and adding weight to the cockpit would help.

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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [cowardlydragon] [ In reply to ]
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So get a Trek--the bento is behind the seat tube... :-)
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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [Epic-o] [ In reply to ]
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We've now covered how to attach as much crap as possible to your bike for long rides, why cars need more cup holders, and whether water between the bars slows the steering too much.

In a thread that's supposed to be about the world's fastest triathlon racing bike.

This thread officially sucks.


Last edited by: matto: Dec 16, 11 21:26
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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Perhaps one UCI-legal and one which is not after all:

"...one UCI legal and ready for World Tour competition, and a second version built to cater to the longer distances and less restrictive governing body of triathlon."

Updated: http://www.bikeradar.com/...january-launch-32698
Last edited by: yonadav: Dec 16, 11 23:46
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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [yonadav] [ In reply to ]
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Whoa, they UCI-legal will keep the drop in the front.

Quote:
the two P5 versions will be further divergent in terms of fit with the UCI-legal version retaining a lower front end and slightly slacker seat tube angle like the current P4 but the tri-specific one boasting a much more multisport-friendly layout.BikeRadar's sources tell us that frame will get a 2.5cm-taller stack on average coupled with a 8mm reduction in reach that will be more conducive to triathletes' generally taller bar positions. In fact, we're told that the tri-specific P5 will not only wear a similar front end height to the current P2 but it's also pegged as a sort of more evolved spirit of Cervélo's bread-and-butter multisport machine.

What the hell is that bread-and-butter part about at the end?
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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [matto] [ In reply to ]
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matto wrote:
Whoa, they UCI-legal will keep the drop in the front.

Quote:
the two P5 versions will be further divergent in terms of fit with the UCI-legal version retaining a lower front end and slightly slacker seat tube angle like the current P4 but the tri-specific one boasting a much more multisport-friendly layout.BikeRadar's sources tell us that frame will get a 2.5cm-taller stack on average coupled with a 8mm reduction in reach that will be more conducive to triathletes' generally taller bar positions. In fact, we're told that the tri-specific P5 will not only wear a similar front end height to the current P2 but it's also pegged as a sort of more evolved spirit of Cervélo's bread-and-butter multisport machine.


What the hell is that bread-and-butter part about at the end?

Bread and butter means they sell a hell of a lot more bikes to triathletes than people doing UCI race.
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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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so much for everyone thinking that Cervelo was going to lose numbers in Kona. They ARE the PREMIER tri bike brand in the world and nothing that the others are doing is going to change that. Sure maybe the others are catching up but once they do and you waste your money on their attept at being aero Cervelo comes out to take it up another level.

I also like how people are saying that the new bike will not fit even though we do not have all the information. I love how more information keeps "leaking" and then you find out that they are going to have two versions which might fit the people saying no way.

This is going to be an interesting few months with more and more information "leaking" out.
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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [matto] [ In reply to ]
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matto wrote:
WTF is an easier geometry?

Dunno, but in 8th Grade, "easier geometry" was our code name for Susie Marple. Nicely stacked, that one.

Later!

Brian

Swim. Bike. Run. Repeat as necessary.
Welcome to the Church of Briantriology!
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Re: P5 news today... brace yourselves! [BMANX] [ In reply to ]
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BMANX wrote:
so much for everyone thinking that Cervelo was going to lose numbers in Kona. They ARE the PREMIER tri bike brand in the world and nothing that the others are doing is going to change that. Sure maybe the others are catching up but once they do and you waste your money on their attept at being aero Cervelo comes out to take it up another level.

I also like how people are saying that the new bike will not fit even though we do not have all the information. I love how more information keeps "leaking" and then you find out that they are going to have two versions which might fit the people saying no way.

This is going to be an interesting few months with more and more information "leaking" out.

Get over yourself Cervelo Boy, you sound like tool, this bike isn't going to make or break anyone's race. I'm sure it will be a nice bike, however, I highly doubt it will be a lot better than any of the new bikes on the market: Time Machine, Speed Concept, Shiv, Plasma, etc. Who wants to roll around like every other spode on the same bike anyway (well besides you)? I like the fact the manufactuerers have bridged the gap in performance of their bikes and people have choices. I think it really boils down to fit and looks, which is a lot different back when the P3 was revolutionary and a lot of the bike manufacturers didn't invest into the tt/tri segment like they are today. That is why Cervelo got big and cornered the market and I give them props for it. I'm interested in seeing what this bike will looks like...I'm sure it will be nice.
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