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Ortho Surgeon busts myths re MRIs, Arthroscopes, Shoulder Pain, etc
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Good morning Slowtwitch friends - thought you'd particularly enjoy this episode. It's interview w/ ortho surgeon who doesn't sound like the typical orthopedic surgeon. He covers the (lack of) value of an MRI, why shoulder surgery mid-life isn't usually the best idea, whether running is bad for your knees, how to respond to arthritis and how to address the thought of a knee scope. Fascinating stuff!

Here's direct link but also available on iTunes, Spotify, etc - https://www.buzzsprout.com/204059/2592997


See you out there! Finally jumping back into Tri's after a few years off. First up Lubbock 70.3!!


-Coop
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Re: Ortho Surgeon busts myths re MRIs, Arthroscopes, Shoulder Pain, etc [Ironcoop] [ In reply to ]
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tl;dl?

(too long; didn't listen)

Strava
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Re: Ortho Surgeon busts myths re MRIs, Arthroscopes, Shoulder Pain, etc [gmh39] [ In reply to ]
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:-) Sorry about that. It's worth it if you have a longer indoor ride or commute in the future. We aim to keep them all between 20-60 minutes, depending on the guest. This one ended up being 53 min due to SO many insights I thought our listeners would appreciate. It looks like it's on track to be one of our most popular episodes ever (behind Chrissie Wellington, Joe Friel and the sleep Doc for MLB/NFL/NBA but maybe not for long!)

All the best!
Last edited by: Ironcoop: Feb 12, 20 8:53
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Re: Ortho Surgeon busts myths re MRIs, Arthroscopes, Shoulder Pain, etc [Ironcoop] [ In reply to ]
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I'm going to bump this because it's worth listening to (I'm only part way in, but it's nice to hear this coming from a surgeon). My wife is a psychologist with a focus on persistent pain management and all this stuff is right up her alley. If you think or "know" there's a problem, you suffer. Surgery often doesn't fix problems, because pain is a phenomenon of perception, not injury.
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Re: Ortho Surgeon busts myths re MRIs, Arthroscopes, Shoulder Pain, etc [MattyK] [ In reply to ]
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MattyK wrote:
I'm going to bump this because it's worth listening to (I'm only part way in, but it's nice to hear this coming from a surgeon). My wife is a psychologist with a focus on persistent pain management and all this stuff is right up her alley. If you think or "know" there's a problem, you suffer. Surgery often doesn't fix problems, because pain is a phenomenon of perception, not injury.

Understand what you're saying but OTOH there are instances, like say a broken femur from a bike crash, that do require immediate surgery.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Ortho Surgeon busts myths re MRIs, Arthroscopes, Shoulder Pain, etc [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
MattyK wrote:
I'm going to bump this because it's worth listening to (I'm only part way in, but it's nice to hear this coming from a surgeon). My wife is a psychologist with a focus on persistent pain management and all this stuff is right up her alley. If you think or "know" there's a problem, you suffer. Surgery often doesn't fix problems, because pain is a phenomenon of perception, not injury.


Understand what you're saying but OTOH there are instances, like say a broken femur from a bike crash, that do require immediate surgery.

Where did I imply that surgery wasn't required for some injuries? (I probably should have used the word "pain" instead of "problems")
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Re: Ortho Surgeon busts myths re MRIs, Arthroscopes, Shoulder Pain, etc [MattyK] [ In reply to ]
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I haven’t listened but my first ortho told my my acl was torn and there was no point to doing an MRI. I had the reconstruction done 3-4 months later by a different ortho and had to have a significant amount of meniscus removed. If the first ortho had done an MRI and verified that the meniscus was intact, I would have not prolonged my surgery.
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Re: Ortho Surgeon busts myths re MRIs, Arthroscopes, Shoulder Pain, etc [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]
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turningscrews wrote:
I haven’t listened but my first ortho told my my acl was torn and there was no point to doing an MRI. I had the reconstruction done 3-4 months later by a different ortho and had to have a significant amount of meniscus removed. If the first ortho had done an MRI and verified that the meniscus was intact, I would have not prolonged my surgery.

And how is your pain now?
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Re: Ortho Surgeon busts myths re MRIs, Arthroscopes, Shoulder Pain, etc [MattyK] [ In reply to ]
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MattyK wrote:
turningscrews wrote:
I haven’t listened but my first ortho told my my acl was torn and there was no point to doing an MRI. I had the reconstruction done 3-4 months later by a different ortho and had to have a significant amount of meniscus removed. If the first ortho had done an MRI and verified that the meniscus was intact, I would have not prolonged my surgery.

And how is your pain now?

I didn’t run for over 10 yrs after and only raced bikes. I don’t have problems with my knee now but I’d sure like to have that meniscus back. While the physician was right that and MRI wasn’t going to change the ACL diagnosis, it would have told us about the integrity of the meniscus.
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Re: Ortho Surgeon busts myths re MRIs, Arthroscopes, Shoulder Pain, etc [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]
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A doc that makes a diagnosis like that without having any imaging done to confirm is a red flag. Sure they might be smart and know their stuff, but a "visual" confirmation should always be done prior to a surgery.

Strava
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Re: Ortho Surgeon busts myths re MRIs, Arthroscopes, Shoulder Pain, etc [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]
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Yes - that's a different situation. He discusses the overuse of MRI's and the fact that by age 40+ (almost) all of us will have "something" show up on the MRI, even if it's completely unrelated to the actual cause. If you have time, I think you'd find his suggestions intriguing.

Thanks all!
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Re: Ortho Surgeon busts myths re MRIs, Arthroscopes, Shoulder Pain, etc [Ironcoop] [ In reply to ]
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Ironcoop wrote:
Yes - that's a different situation. He discusses the overuse of MRI's and the fact that by age 40+ (almost) all of us will have "something" show up on the MRI, even if it's completely unrelated to the actual cause. If you have time, I think you'd find his suggestions intriguing.

Thanks all!


I plan to listen to your podcast later but have not had a chance yet.

The OP suggested it being a red flag if your doc does not order imaging prior to a procedure. For that, I'd say it can be yes and no. I think a lot of docs rely on imaging too much, and not their clinical skills, to diagnose. When I was in med school, we were always taught to let the history/physical point you do the diagnosis. Your mind should be your sharpest weapon, and have the imaging studies as your back up (if needed). The other guy mentioned his ACL. I don't know the whole story so not sure what was discussed but, if the surgery has to be done (to repair the ACL) then the doc will be checking the meniscus and cartilage while he's in there. Doing the MRI is nice but it can sometimes just be an added expense (and extra step).

Also, MRI does not always show the "exact" problem. Or may raise a false alarm. An example of the first is my wife recently had knee surgery. She'd had an MRI of her left knee, a few years back, that showed meniscus damage. Because she was asymptomatic at the time, she and her surgeon chose no surgery. When it did finally start bothering her bad enough, he scoped her. Despite the MRI showing meniscus damage, that's not what he found once inside the knee. It was not her meniscus but a chunk of cartilage off the distal end of her femur. Her meniscus was actually ok. So, another newer MRI might've showed the cartilage damage but for what, he was going in the knee anyways. It would've been an extra expense and delayed her surgery. I was thankful he did not want to get another MRI.

A second example is myself. I developed high hamstring tendinopathy (HHT) a few years ago. MRI came back and showed almost equal amounts of inflammatory tendon changes on both my right and left sides. My problem was on the right. Ortho doc asked if I had any problems on the left and I said NO. To this day (knock on wood), I've never had HHT on the left......but my MRI suggested I do. So, this also goes back to the good and bad of imaging. Clinical correlation is always needed. And just because you find a "problem" does not mean you should always treat the "problem"
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Re: Ortho Surgeon busts myths re MRIs, Arthroscopes, Shoulder Pain, etc [EyeRunMD] [ In reply to ]
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I had a bike crash about 20 months ago. After all the superficial wounds healed I realized my shoulder was jacked up. Original clinical diagnosis was a torn labrum (posterior). Did a MRI to corroborate. MRI w/contrast didn’t show a tear. It did show another shoulder issue that still required surgery but not as bad as labrum surgery.

Guess what they found when they were in there? Yep, labrum wasn’t itself torn but it was torn off the bone on the entire posterior side plus the previously mentioned issue I was originally having surgery. I pretty much had nothing holding the rear of my shoulder together. So I ended up with a way worse surgery and recovery than what was anticipated.

So the clinical diagnosis was more spot on than the MRI.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: Ortho Surgeon busts myths re MRIs, Arthroscopes, Shoulder Pain, etc [EyeRunMD] [ In reply to ]
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You would know better than I would but I think part of the imaging requirement is surgery. They did xrays on both my hips and did injections to confirm labral tears on both. But they needed the MRI with contrast to confirm for insurance to pay.
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Re: Ortho Surgeon busts myths re MRIs, Arthroscopes, Shoulder Pain, etc [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]
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turningscrews wrote:
I haven’t listened but my first ortho told my my acl was torn and there was no point to doing an MRI. I had the reconstruction done 3-4 months later by a different ortho and had to have a significant amount of meniscus removed. If the first ortho had done an MRI and verified that the meniscus was intact, I would have not prolonged my surgery.

Clarifying question... I am confused by this, as an MD. You delayed your surgery, knowing you had a significant structural injury to your knee but you would NOT have delayed if you had know whether or not you had a much less significant structural injury? Just trying to understand what you are saying...

Colorado Triathlon Company, CO2UT 2021, Crooked Gravel 2022, Steamboat Gravel 2022
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Re: Ortho Surgeon busts myths re MRIs, Arthroscopes, Shoulder Pain, etc [EyeRunMD] [ In reply to ]
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Well written post.
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Re: Ortho Surgeon busts myths re MRIs, Arthroscopes, Shoulder Pain, etc [Ironcoop] [ In reply to ]
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Great podcast Coop. Refreshing to see an Ortho doc present this.

CB
Physical Therapist/Endurance Coach
http://www.cadencept.net
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Re: Ortho Surgeon busts myths re MRIs, Arthroscopes, Shoulder Pain, etc [Ironcoop] [ In reply to ]
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I find it funny how many people (even among athletes) think an MRI is some sort of therapeutic intervention.
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Re: Ortho Surgeon busts myths re MRIs, Arthroscopes, Shoulder Pain, etc [PTinAZ] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks everyone. If you liked this one, the link to the full list of episodes recorded to date (#80 on tap) is available here - https://www.catalystcoachinginstitute.com/podcast/ (or iTunes, Spotify, etc). Interviewing Rinny Carfrae tomorrow for an upcoming episode that should be an interesting one!!

Thanks for the engagement in this episode w/ the orthopod. Looks like it might end up being the most popular of all 80 episodes!!
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Re: Ortho Surgeon busts myths re MRIs, Arthroscopes, Shoulder Pain, etc [Ironcoop] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the link. I’m currently considering surgery for a hip labral tear/FAI. Met with a surgeon who didn’t even suggest I try PT first.
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Re: Ortho Surgeon busts myths re MRIs, Arthroscopes, Shoulder Pain, etc [Ironcoop] [ In reply to ]
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Wow!

Loved this podcast!

I went against the advice of my primary care doctor and ordered my own mri. It revealed a horizontal tear and some cartilage damage.


I took my mri to an orthopedic surgeon and he said I need surgery.

I then took my mri to Regenexx and they said I need Regenexx.

I then took my mri to a physical therapist and she said I need PT.

I ended up doing PT for a few months.

It’s been one year since my injury and I still have knee pain. However; I can run/walk for 30 mins with minimal pain . I can also ride my bike without pain. I can swim too.

I’m wondering, since I still have pain, would a new mri be ideal or just keep making my legs stronger with pt?
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