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Order of weekend long ride/run
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Historically, I've almost always done a long ride on Saturday and a long run on Sunday. Because of more family obligations this year as the kids get older (weekend sports and other events), it's been harder to get the long ride done on Saturday mornings. This past Saturday I was up at 2:30 and done with an indoor four hour ride by 7:00 am. It may be a bit easier on me to do my long run on Saturday and then long ride on Sunday. Is there any reason to have the ride on Saturday and long run on Sunday other than that's what happens in a triathlon?


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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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I thought run then ride was the standard to protect the legs. Running on tired legs may have more risk (and reward) than most need.

Aaron Torrelio
--everything in moderation, including moderation
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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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Anyway you could move your long run to sometime during the week, like Wednesday? Doing both on back to back days is sub-optimal but you probably know that.

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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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There are a few schools of thought here:

1) Long ride Saturday, Long run Sunday. The traditional setup.
Pro: It forces you to do your long run on somewhat tired legs.
Con: Injury risk due to running on tired legs, and possibly having bad run form for the entirety of the run

2) Long run Saturday, Long ride Sunday.
Pro: You come into the long run much fresher, thus getting a better overall run workout. Also your injury risk is reduced.
Con: You lose the tired-leg-running training (whether or not that actually is important is highly debatable)

3) Mid-week long run, whatever day works on the weekend for the long ride.
Pro: Both long workouts get done while generally well rested.
Con: Finding time in the mid-week to do a long run session. Also it messes up the timing of some of the key sessions like tempo or LT intervals, but that isn't too hard to work around. You lose that tired-long-run (yes that's a contradiction of the "pro" here)

Basically, I think a good argument can be made for any of those three setups. They all have benefits and drawbacks. And personally I would say the answer comes down to whatever fits best in your life.
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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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I read a bit of your blog (linked in your signature line). Obviously you are super dedicated and very fit. You want it a hell of a lot more than most people who are like "how can I fit training and my life together"... but starting at 2:30am on a saturday is crazy talk. Good god, man!

If you are actually getting it all done by 7am anyways, you don't need to do this stuff exclusively on the weekends. "Long ride saturday, long run sunday" is a training convention that comes from normal people schedules. The reason normal people ride long on the weekend is because that is when they have big chunks of free time. That hardly sounds like your situation.

Is there any possibility that it would be better to push a meeting or two back on a weekday-- say, tuesday or wednesday morning and getting in to the office around 9am -- vs. what you described in your post? I'd be shuffling my schedule and looking for ways of getting an extra hour or two of sleep at some point...
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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [MadTownTRI] [ In reply to ]
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MadTownTRI wrote:
I read a bit of your blog (linked in your signature line). Obviously you are super dedicated and very fit. You want it a hell of a lot more than most people who are like "how can I fit training and my life together"... but starting at 2:30am on a saturday is crazy talk. Good god, man!

If you are actually getting it all done by 7am anyways, you don't need to do this stuff exclusively on the weekends. "Long ride saturday, long run sunday" is a training convention that comes from normal people schedules. The reason normal people ride long on the weekend is because that is when they have big chunks of free time. That hardly sounds like your situation.

Is there any possibility that it would be better to push a meeting or two back on a weekday-- say, tuesday or wednesday morning and getting in to the office around 9am -- vs. what you described in your post? I'd be shuffling my schedule and looking for ways of getting an extra hour or two of sleep at some point...


I'm a teacher, and it's a bit hard to push back the start of school: ;) I need to be done with all weekday workouts by around 6:30 am. This morning I had a two hour ride and 30 min run done by then. I guess I could do a long run during that window of time. I try to get a longer run in on Wednesday mornings (9-10 mile range with some pace).

This past weekend I did nearly a 21 mile run (ran for time - 2:30 run) after biking four hours the previous day. Legs felt good for the run, so I don't really feel that long run after a long bike is that detrimental to my training. I guess I'll just adjust things as the weeks go on - I think this coming weekend may be a long run Saturday and long ride on Sunday weekend due to the family schedule. My wife goes to a Barre class on Saturday that starts at 7:15, so I need to be done no later than 7:00 on those days.

Honestly, getting up foolishly early isn't that hard when you have eyes on a long term goal. I try to get at least six hours of sleep on those nights and then try to make up for that by getting close to eight hours the night before or the night after. I know that isn't ideal, but so far there haven't been any negative outcomes from the early wake-ups. My A goal race for the year (IM Norway) is less than seven weeks away - will then have a little time to sleep in (which means past 5 am for me!).


Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
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Last edited by: natethomas: May 14, 19 6:44
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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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Sometimes I do my long rides on Friday afternoon and my long runs on Sunday to free up Saturday for family time.

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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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I’m in the same boat with 2 young kids, etc., I no longer worry about the timing of workouts. I figure out which workouts I want to do during the week and I fit them in. One week I did my long ride on a Sunday and the following week on Tuesday (2days later), was in optimum no but I knew I wasn’t going to have time on the weekend.

With kids and life if you’re getting the workouts in, you’re ahead of the curve. Don’t worry about when they come, just smash IM Norway!
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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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Honestly, I don’t think it matters which order you do them on weekends. There are pros and cons to both. Personally, I find doing long runs after long rides to increase injury risk.

Personally, I do my long run Fri after work (generally easy for me to leave the office a bit early Friday), long ride Sat AM with a bigger than average brick runs (usually with some tempo work mixed in) for some practice maintaining form at race pace under fatigue.

My more global comment is, unless you’re going to bed super early, I’m included to think waking up to ride at 2:30am is likely counterproductive to some extent. Do what you gotta do, but a scenario where you’re getting semi normal amounts of sleep (especially before/after big training weekends) is important. As a general rule, I’ll shorten or split up longer workouts before I’ll go <5.5-6 hrs of quality sleep, with 8 hrs being my ideal normal. But I have higher sleep needs than most.
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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [g_lev] [ In reply to ]
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4) Long run Friday, double long ride Saturday and Sunday

g_lev wrote:
There are a few schools of thought here:

1) Long ride Saturday, Long run Sunday. The traditional setup.
Pro: It forces you to do your long run on somewhat tired legs.
Con: Injury risk due to running on tired legs, and possibly having bad run form for the entirety of the run

2) Long run Saturday, Long ride Sunday.
Pro: You come into the long run much fresher, thus getting a better overall run workout. Also your injury risk is reduced.
Con: You lose the tired-leg-running training (whether or not that actually is important is highly debatable)

3) Mid-week long run, whatever day works on the weekend for the long ride.
Pro: Both long workouts get done while generally well rested.
Con: Finding time in the mid-week to do a long run session. Also it messes up the timing of some of the key sessions like tempo or LT intervals, but that isn't too hard to work around. You lose that tired-long-run (yes that's a contradiction of the "pro" here)

Basically, I think a good argument can be made for any of those three setups. They all have benefits and drawbacks. And personally I would say the answer comes down to whatever fits best in your life.

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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:
4) Long run Friday, double long ride Saturday and Sunday

g_lev wrote:
There are a few schools of thought here:

1) Long ride Saturday, Long run Sunday. The traditional setup.
Pro: It forces you to do your long run on somewhat tired legs.
Con: Injury risk due to running on tired legs, and possibly having bad run form for the entirety of the run

2) Long run Saturday, Long ride Sunday.
Pro: You come into the long run much fresher, thus getting a better overall run workout. Also your injury risk is reduced.
Con: You lose the tired-leg-running training (whether or not that actually is important is highly debatable)

3) Mid-week long run, whatever day works on the weekend for the long ride.
Pro: Both long workouts get done while generally well rested.
Con: Finding time in the mid-week to do a long run session. Also it messes up the timing of some of the key sessions like tempo or LT intervals, but that isn't too hard to work around. You lose that tired-long-run (yes that's a contradiction of the "pro" here)

Basically, I think a good argument can be made for any of those three setups. They all have benefits and drawbacks. And personally I would say the answer comes down to whatever fits best in your life.

For sure... And since the OP is a faster runner, even the longest "long run" isn't super long in terms of actual amount of time, and could easily be accomplished on a weekday
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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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wintershade wrote:
My more global comment is, unless you’re going to bed super early, I’m included to think waking up to ride at 2:30am is likely counterproductive to some extent.

Bahaha! Let me tell you about how I headed out for my long ride around 4am after a crap night of sleep totaling maybe 5 hours. I rode for about an hour and pulled over at one of the shelters on the cycling track here in Dubai. Set an alarm for sunrise and went to sleep on a bench. One of the most useless training sessions ever. (Although I did get 170km in)

Aaron Torrelio
--everything in moderation, including moderation
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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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Similar to this, my typical long rides/run for an IM build that my coach prescribes are Wednesday long run and then Saturday is usually a long ride 4-5 hours with tempo and a run off the bike and Sunday is 4-5 hours open by feel.

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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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Long ride almost always on the weekend. I'm sure it's pretty difficult for many to cut out for 3-5 hours during the work week. Long run during the week is certainly more doable, 2 hours or so. I like the concept of separating them by a few days. Up to this point I've always done the long Sat/Sun workout thing, but scheduling my long run mid-week might be a better training option, if I can figure out a way to squeeze it in :)

"The first virtue in a soldier is endurance of fatigue; courage is only the second virtue."
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Last edited by: Don_W: May 14, 19 11:36
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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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Consider this....

I run long on Fridays to allow shifting of the long ride to Sat or Sun for weather or obligations.

Run 8 to 10 before work.
7 to 8 over lunch.
4 to 6 after work depending on the distance.

It's changed the game for me and made life SO MUCH MORE ENJOYABLE on the weekends.

Ryan
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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [g_lev] [ In reply to ]
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g_lev wrote:
ericMPro wrote:
4) Long run Friday, double long ride Saturday and Sunday

g_lev wrote:
There are a few schools of thought here:

1) Long ride Saturday, Long run Sunday. The traditional setup.
Pro: It forces you to do your long run on somewhat tired legs.
Con: Injury risk due to running on tired legs, and possibly having bad run form for the entirety of the run

2) Long run Saturday, Long ride Sunday.
Pro: You come into the long run much fresher, thus getting a better overall run workout. Also your injury risk is reduced.
Con: You lose the tired-leg-running training (whether or not that actually is important is highly debatable)

3) Mid-week long run, whatever day works on the weekend for the long ride.
Pro: Both long workouts get done while generally well rested.
Con: Finding time in the mid-week to do a long run session. Also it messes up the timing of some of the key sessions like tempo or LT intervals, but that isn't too hard to work around. You lose that tired-long-run (yes that's a contradiction of the "pro" here)

Basically, I think a good argument can be made for any of those three setups. They all have benefits and drawbacks. And personally I would say the answer comes down to whatever fits best in your life.

For sure... And since the OP is a faster runner, even the longest "long run" isn't super long in terms of actual amount of time, and could easily be accomplished on a weekday

This.

Given that there is zero reason to ever run more than 2:30 for IM training,
(and that even that may not be necessary, or something you do more than 1-2x a season),
and given that the OP is already finding a way to carve out 2-2:30 during the week anyway, then the answer is to do the L run during the week
- Thurs am was my go-to for this -
and then pick whichever weekend day works best for L ride based on weather and fam obligations.

Problem solved.


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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [TriJayhawkRyan] [ In reply to ]
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I do long run Friday, long bike/brick Sat am. Like you I'm up about 3am to get everything done by early Sat morning. Gives me the rest of Saturday and Sunday to spend with the family. Allows me to get to all the kids sports and to spend time with everyone. Plus we have a sailboat so it allows us to do overnight trips without me having to worry about getting a Sunday workout in.

Getting the long workouts in before the kids weekend sports can be challenging. Have to leave this Sat am at 5:45 to get to a rowing race. Will need to get up a 1am to get the long bike, a stretch and shower in before we go. Nice thing is, Sunday is off day so can sleep in.
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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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The real problem is the 7 day week. It feels cramped. We need to move to a 10 day week (7 weekdays and 3 weekends). 36 weeks total plus 5 days at the end of the year where everyone is off.
That would fix a lot of problems in our scheduling of our weeks. Not to mention taking a week off for vacation is a real vacation. 13 days would be sufficient to go anywhere.
Employers would love it too because the number of workdays goes up too.
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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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Pick the sport in which you are currently most fit. Do *that* sport's activity first. Less likely to take as much out of you for the second one.
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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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Nate:

Works what fits into your schedule. Run long Saturdays or Sundays. Ride long Saturdays or Sundays. Mix it up. Don't think about your choice. Think about your upcoming 70.3 and IM.

Limit your run to no more than 18 miles. After that your burning some muscle and pushing your body's internals. You're worried a bit about getting injured from running again so that should relieve that worry. Consider adding some speed on shorter taper runs. That will make your pace feel easy on the run leg of the IM. And get you closer or within your KQ boundary goal.

The way early workouts here will help your time zone switch in Norway. The body won't be shocked with that starting time there come July.

You can keep a peak for about six weeks so you can start your 70.3 race taper a few days earlier than planned. Then recover the week after it and continue taper into Haugesund. Hei! Hei! Get used to that cheer from the great spectator race support there.


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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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You could of course alternate weekly...

One week: Saturday Long ride, Short Easy run Sunday
Second Week: Saturday long run, Short hard ride Sunday

Or....Run long every 3rd week - Make it either a bike focused week or run focused week.
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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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While my stuff is not as long as yours is, I moved my long trainer rides to Thursday am and my long run to Saturday. I had found that doing both on the weekend really took a bunch out of me and I was thrashed for a couple of days. This change has me tired 2 days, but I can recover, be productive with my family, AND keep training. As races are starting, I am having to move things around again but will stay with something similar.
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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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I swap the long ride/run all the time on the weekend due to weather and social obligations and don't think anything of it, and my coach always gives me instructions that I can swap days if needed.

If I were you, I would do what you can to maximize sleep and family time. As others have said, if you can get in a 2-2.5 hour run on a weekday and sleep in on one weekend day, that will do a lot more for you in terms of training adaptation, and your family will thank you for it as well.

When I was self coached and 5 years younger, I actually used to do all my long rides on Tuesday mornings because I wanted a weekend day off to sleep in and/or party on Saturday nights. I had the luxury of getting to work between 9-10am so I could start a 4 hour trainer ride at 4:30 instead of 2 am which is just nuts. Point is, consistency is king and timing of workouts is overrated as long as you give yourself sufficient recovery time.

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1999 LC Jr Nats 200m Fly Champion
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Re: Order of weekend long ride/run [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for all of the recommendations, folks. I guess I'll just adjust as needed to get the workouts in. I've got 2 1/2 weeks till an 70.3 and then another 4 weeks after that is my A race, so not a ton of time to play around with scheduling - most of the hay is already in the barn.

I'm a huge believer in consistency and haven't missed a workout this calendar year so far - knocking on wood for the remainder of the training to go well and head into my next races in great shape.


Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
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